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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcaguy View Post
    What worse is that any MCU X-MEN Moive is going to be half-assed and most likely white-washed just like the New Mutants Movie was.
    No. MCU X-MEN movie are going to be loud, action packed, very funny, CGI driven, mass manufactured directed and would build up the MCU more.

    Disney won't white wash MCU XMEN , because Hollywood now has a rule that all films must be diverse. A lot of mutants are going to be of new race with half-assed outcome like Michelle Jones is the Mary Jane we will not call mary jane.

  2. #32
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    The only metaphor that makes sense using mutants is the disabled community (and this would require emphasizing mutations that give powers but also take something away from you). Since Marvel won't do this they should just ignore the metaphor point blank. Having Wolverine as a metaphor for any kind of minority is plain dumb.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    The only metaphor that makes sense using mutants is the disabled community (and this would require emphasizing mutations that give powers but also take something away from you). Since Marvel won't do this they should just ignore the metaphor point blank. Having Wolverine as a metaphor for any kind of minority is plain dumb.
    Most of the characters have mutations which aid them so even at that the disability metaphor doesn't work. Really it's a reverse-disability metaphor

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    The only metaphor that makes sense using mutants is the disabled community (and this would require emphasizing mutations that give powers but also take something away from you). Since Marvel won't do this they should just ignore the metaphor point blank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Most of the characters have mutations which aid them so even at that the disability metaphor doesn't work. Really it's a reverse-disability metaphor



    As someone who relates to mutants in multiple metaphors (lol) Id say itd be prudent of the MCU to flex it's metaphorical muscles The metaphor is relatable to many kinds of people works on various levels as metaphors do. I don't understand how people can argue with an interpretation of a metaphor
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Having Wolverine as a metaphor for any kind of minority is plain dumb.
    Why? Cause of the color of his skin? His sexuality?




    lol lawwwds
    Last edited by BroHomo; 05-16-2021 at 02:21 PM.
    GrindrStone(D)

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    lol lawwwds
    I meant the main characters. Some, like Cyclops, also have a disadvantage. others, like Storm, seem to have none.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    The only metaphor that makes sense using mutants is the disabled community (and this would require emphasizing mutations that give powers but also take something away from you). Since Marvel won't do this they should just ignore the metaphor point blank. Having Wolverine as a metaphor for any kind of minority is plain dumb.
    It is not. In the scene in X-MEN 1, Wolverine is at a bar, there is news background on the mutant crisis and wovlerine starts acting quite weird, when other people tried to attack him in the bar because he wont pay up. he reveals he is a mutant and he is told in quote....Get out of my bar freak.

    Now what made that scene work, The tone, directing , cinematography but overall the film makes this the main plot arc of the film, it is not a one only scene. So yeah it can work, You also get this thing in the scene between him and rogue ..that something was not right about them, which in a way, added more freakishness at least from a human angle.



    As for using mutant as a disabled community, I think that is just one group. X-MEN is a mix of real life discrimination and metaphors for anyone who has experienced prejudice. the metaphor aspect is only because mutants are not real in real life. however that does not mean you cannot have a deep story of prejudice and this is what xmen has done exceptional well.
    Last edited by Castle; 05-16-2021 at 02:17 PM.

  7. #37
    Make it plain please... Silver Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    I like it. Think that would really resonate in today’s environment. The X-men as the 1%.
    I also think this would be an interesting premise with the Eternals soon joining the MCU and possibly shedding light on the different offsets of humanity and other possible races on Earth.

    This could all work together to creating paranoia in the MCU amongst humanity that they aren't the top dogs anymore. This leads to governments creating systems of protection from said threats i.e. Sentinel program, government sponsored mutant teams, etc. to meet growing threats.
    "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."- Jesus
    John 14:6

  8. #38

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    It should be present.

    The mutant metaphor is stand in for being an outsider. It can work in many different ways. For example, Si Spurrier's work in the X-books cover mental health and now having faith in a secular society via Way of X.

    I was a fan of Academy X when I was younger. One of my milestones was reading an argument between Surge and Dust on whether or not Dust's Burqa was sexist. It meant a lot to me when I was in middle school. For reference I was a Muslim kid growing up during the aftermath in 9/11.

    So I'm down for the X-men being about representation, intersectionality and solidarity. They don't have to be the only ones but they could help out.

  9. #39
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    I don't think it works without having actual minority X-Men at the forefront

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member ChronoRogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I don't think it works without having actual minority X-Men at the forefront
    Yes and this is why they should not start with the 05.

    The ANAD works since that has Thunderbird, Sunfire and Storm but the guys need more exposure and more importance instead of a) dying on one of the first missions and b) never sticking around.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I don't think it works without having actual minority X-Men at the forefront
    I'm cool with having a diverse roster. It's not the FF after all. You could change things around more.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoRogue View Post
    Yes and this is why they should not start with the 05.

    The ANAD works since that has Thunderbird, Sunfire and Storm but the guys need more exposure and more importance instead of a) dying on one of the first missions and b) never sticking around.
    As much as one has to respect them for being the first incarnation of the team, as far as i can see, the 05 just aren't that popular or interesting to most of the X-men audience (comics, cartoons and movies). Infact even Jean Grey and Cyclops who are like cornerstones of the X-men in the comics and got important roles in cartoons and movies, are still seemingly treated as of secondary importance by those who only know the X-men from the spin-off products. Beast, Angel and Iceman have it even worse.
    They seem to get overshadowed in popularity by the characters who were introduced after them.

    I got the impression the whole time displaced 05 were created for exactly that reason. To try and sell the "boring" original five X-men to a newer audience as young, hip and interesting.

    So i agree that trying to jumpstart the X-men with the 05 doesn't seem like something they would try to enforce, just because it's comic accurate.

    The ANAD team would also have Wolverine in it who is the money maker character of the X-men (as much as i feel he is overhyped and can't get the long term appeal there is no denying he sells), so win/win.

    Also yes killing of Thunderbird right away, just because it's how the comics did it, sounds like a bad idea marketing and PR wise, so if they bring him in as part of the first official X-men team i could imagine him sticking around longer.
    They might still have him die later dramatically, but it would only work well if a. people got to know and like him better, b. Warpath is allready introduced and set up as his successor (hence not getting rid of a minority representation) and c. if it's a pretty awesome death scene (instead of just crashing with a Harrier jet).

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoRogue View Post
    Yes and this is why they should not start with the 05.

    The ANAD works since that has Thunderbird, Sunfire and Storm but the guys need more exposure and more importance instead of a) dying on one of the first missions and b) never sticking around.
    I definitely agree they shouldn't go with the O5. IMO they're not the most exciting X-Men, and using them for representation would be tone deaf at best. Although I'm guessing Warpath will probably get more attention because he has more lore overall

    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    I'm cool with having a diverse roster. It's not the FF after all. You could change things around more.
    Agreed. X-Men have a massive roster of lesser known characters who could get their time to shine in the MCU

  14. #44
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    I've already had this argument before. You guys like to think that just because people have done it this way nothing needs to change. So even though I know you aren't really open to contemplating these things seriously and will just revert to the status quo, I will still try to show you the important reasons why we are way past the mutant metaphor as it stands.

    We don't need Star Trek to make metaphors for homophobia or racism. In fact, if we want to talk about those issues seriously then we use characters that actually belong to the group we are addressing. This happens for two reasons. First of all for the purposes of representation. The more we are exposed to people different from us the more we are able to overcome whatever it is that makes us discriminate.

    The second reason, is that "love each other" and "everyone should be equal and free" aren't THE important debates we need to have as a society anymore, and those messages don't fix any of our problems. If we want to talk about police brutality then we need to talk about the relationship between brown skin and authority over the centuries. We need to talk about black culture which is something that can only be understood as it is because of brown skin and because of an group of people whose culture was tsken from them and lost their family tree. We need to talk about the infrastructures we have, both governmental and capitalism and how the have an impact on policing and crime. These are the reasons why there is a divergence in how police should operate or even on how they should be fixed. The mutant metaphor doesn't work here for so many reasons.

    Also, the idea that mutants can both be discriminated as a group but also represent all kinds of "otherness" doesn't work in terms of storytelling. There are Gay people that are against trans supporting laws, because being gay has nothing to do with being trans, and the reasons why they are discriminated are totally different from each other. There are anti trans laws feminists whose worldview defines feminism as the opposite of transgender, for entirely logical reasons in their minds. Black people, just like any other ethnicity, have communities that are against lgbt, and their reasons for it can't be dismissed simply through saying that they are both discriminated. Same thing apllies to some arabic communities and LGBT.

    The "otherness" concept just has no practical use anymore, unless you want your stories to be completely irrelevant and unrelatable.

    Do Goth people and nerds have a special reason why they should relate to the plight of the black man and woman aside from feeling alienated?
    Last edited by Alpha; 05-16-2021 at 06:10 PM.

  15. #45
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    And again, I would never pretend that Wolverine can be used in a metaphor for a minority, but if we added a degree of sacrifice to every mutant power then we could turn the mutant metaphor into a good metaphor for disbilities and I will explain why.

    The simplest notion of the metaphor would be, your body has made it harder for you to live a normal life, but you have gained another kind of power, and that's what you have to embrace. This could work with a blind person, or with a paraplegic, or with siamese twins, qnd with many other things. Find your special power and make it shine.

    The greatest part about this metaphor is that every single mutant has a different reason why their body has failed them, but they can all think of themselves as a community, just like many communities for the disabled unite different categories of disabled together in that shared sense of pain. The X-mansion ( or in this case Krakoa) works really well as a place where the disabled mutants come to stay and have an easier life surrounded by others that can help them find their way thorugh this difficulty. Think of Professor X, a paraplegic, helping Cyclops, sort of blind, overcome his hard ship through training, which is similar to physical therapy for some disabilities.

    This disabled metaphor also works with theme of mutation. Some disabilities are literally mutations. Parents would be scared of passing down the X-gene just like real parents are scared of actual genetic mutations that can be passed down. And while they are seen as "genetic failures" the message of the X-men is that we should look at them as potential for evolution and change. They aren't any less than us, they are nature experimenting with life, in somewhat scary ways, but with time they become less scary. Lots of mental disbilities also work really well with this. "They don't think less, they just think different".

    And the truth is that regardless of how society changes, this metaphor will always work, whereas other minorities make less sense as time goes on and their place in society changes. Disabilities will always be a repressed minority.
    Last edited by Alpha; 05-16-2021 at 06:13 PM.

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