Should the MCU X-men lean heavily into the minority metophor?

[Hizashi]

I think it's reasonable, if you can succinctly pair it down to one thing that it's clearly a metaphor for. otherwise, the whole X-men is EVERY minority thing, just rings woefully hollow. Cause it's just not true and does a disservice to all parties.

I think it's so difficult to pare it down to only one that it could actively hurt the narrative. They're the ultimate outsiders, why would they have to represent only one interpretation?

[CosmiComic]

What stories are we talking about? The comics or the MCU?

Idk which ones you were talking about, but most of what I've read or watched aren't really heavy handed. In fact a lot take lighter approach, probably because people complain so much

[Hizashi]

Idk which ones you were talking about, but most of what I've read or watched aren't really heavy handed. In fact a lot take lighter approach, probably because people complain so much

In that case, yeah, we only need to adapt those stories and it'll be fine. I can't speak to the complaints thing, I don't know what stories those would be.

[CosmiComic]

In that case, yeah, we only need to adapt those stories and it'll be fine. I can't speak to the complaints thing, I don't know what stories those would be.

Ok. I haven't really seen anything which counts as preachy. Maybe that's just my experience. But I wouldn't worry about that happening in the MCU. IMO most of the time it goes in the other direction, where the comic/show/etc. takes too light of an approach

[cam18]

You don't want to beat ppl over the head with it but it is an important of what makes the X-Men the X-Men and not just the mutant avengers......tap into all the aspects that make X-Men the truly unique property it is from all others from the scfi and super powers to the soap opera that would put GH and As The World turns to shame. X-Men truly is a unique title the vast number of associated characters, the real world references and social subject matter, the more intense focus on interpersonal relationships and romance, and a tone that ranges from very silly to very serious....tap into all of that depending on the story and characters involved. The one thing I hope the MCU does is while embracing the superheroics obvs but also the weird and zanny aspects of the franchise that fox mostly ignored but also don't treat everything for a joke or quip either because that would also be a major disservice and I look at how they handled a few MCU characters and outside of being mostly comedians and comedic relief in the movies that don't offer to much else.

[Hizashi]

Ok. I haven't really seen anything which counts as preachy. Maybe that's just my experience. But I wouldn't worry about that happening in the MCU. IMO most of the time it goes in the other direction, where the comic/show/etc. takes too light of an approach

Yeah, I think everyone has a different threshold. Maybe something that takes me out of the story won't do the same for you.

[Hizashi]

You don't want to beat ppl over the head with it but it is an important of what makes the X-Men the X-Men and not just the mutant avengers......tap into all the aspects that make X-Men the truly unique property it is from all others from the scfi and super powers to the soap opera that would put GH and As The World turns to shame. X-Men truly is a unique title the vast number of associated characters, the real world references and social subject matter, the more intense focus on interpersonal relationships and romance, and a tone that ranges from very silly to very serious....tap into all of that depending on the story and characters involved. The one thing I hope the MCU does is while embracing the superheroics obvs but also the weird and zanny aspects of the franchise that fox mostly ignored but also don't treat everything for a joke or quip either because that would also be a major disservice and I look at how they handled a few MCU characters and outside of being mostly comedians and comedic relief in the movies that don't offer to much else.

I know I'm probably in the minority but I really didn't like what they did with Thor with and after Ragnarok. I fully acknowledge that his franchise needed a shot in the arm and that film did the trick, but it didn't work for me entirely. I don't want them to lean too heavily into the humor either with the X-Men.

[CosmiComic]

Yeah, I think everyone has a different threshold. Maybe something that takes me out of the story won't do the same for you.

That's true. I don't really get bother by topics like racial issues. It's something minorities face everyday and I don't get annoyed when they're included in media such as superhero fiction. Of course I don't like being preached to, but I haven't felt that really happening enough

[davetvs]

I know I'm probably in the minority but I really didn't like what they did with Thor with and after Ragnarok. I fully acknowledge that his franchise needed a shot in the arm and that film did the trick, but it didn't work for me entirely. I don't want them to lean too heavily into the humor either with the X-Men.

I wouldn't mind if it there was balance. Iceman and Jubilee are fine as comic relief/quippy characters, Storm is not.

[ChronoRogue]

I wouldn't mind if it there was balance. Iceman and Jubilee are fine as comic relief/quippy characters, Storm is not.

Alternatively, some characters just need balance. Rogue and Wolverine can be sassy but are still tragic/serious characters.

[Alpha]

But it's not a standard that disabilities occur at puberty like it is for mutants, that's my point.

I don't see how that matters. There are plenty of examples of people that develop disabilties, and of x-men that are born with mutations. Your "criticism" of my defense of the disabilty metaphor is very forced. And it's ironic that the arguments against mutants being a metaphor for racism or homophobia far outnumber the arguments against the disability metaphor. I could list 10 or more reasons why mutants being african americans or gay is dumb.

I just answered your question, power dynamics and status are highlighted when you are treated as an other. Do they understood the details or intrinsic of everything involved in being a particularly minority or ethnicity? No but there are commonalities found in between those examples because of what I've repeated. Of course the leagues of differences between a goth and a racial minority is that one can choose to stop or change a sense of fashion or lifestyle, so it's not really an equal comparison in that respect.

One could even say that it's a bad comparison, and that your idea about how we learn about power dynamics isn't reflected in real life, and having stories that missportray how understanding is created in society is something I detest and that I think hurts social dialogues much more than it helps.

Also unprivileged socioeconomic and racial groups do frequently poll or skew toward certain social policies, this has been researched, so it's kinda funny that was brought up. Not everyone of course, because there are traditionalist and conservative unprivileged as well but there are definitely patterns present in politics and opinions because of shared experiences.

Yes, racial groups do in fact skew to certain policies in general. None of them have to do with social acceptance. Most Arabic families tend to be against gay marriage (but there are plenty of arabic families that aren't). Lot's of black people are also against gay marriage. Lot's of feminists are against trans embracing laws. Various Gay people are also against it. Lots of minorities also tend to be fearful of south american immigration, legal or otherwise. That's why the x-gene grouping all of these people up as if they are all united is dumb. Their actual worldviews often contradict one another, and the reason for that is often connected to the very essence of why they are discriminated by others. I honeslty don't see how the x-gene helps any story that could be about the actual minority featuring actual minority. You say we can have both, but why should we have both if we have one that is clearly necessary while the other isn't? In fact, the other does nothing to move the needle. I don't love the film Moonlight, but it did a whole lot more for gay black people than anything the mutant metaphor could do, and Moonlight didn't even have a complex plot or characterization. It was a really simple movie. But it managed to speak about Black culture specifically because it featured black actors and because they were talking about being black, and not about being "a mutant".

I'm really surprised to find a current X-fan who seems to think the metaphor was completely useless or outdated. I'm curious, what attracted you to the franchise then?

Hum, the characters? And 20 years ago is a very different time from today. Things changed drastically both in society and in representation in media.

[Alpha]

How is it outdated? Did the world suddenly start treating minority groups with respect instead of finding ways to discriminate against and oppress them? There is literally a genocide happening right now.

This question has already been answered many times here. It's outdated because at this point if you wanna talk about discrimination of gay people you can also afford, and have a duty, to have gay people portraying it. Metaphors exist for when a subject isn't socially acceptable. Star Trek talked about discrimination way back in the 60s, but it didn't use any of the actual minorities to do that. Instead it used Spock and Vulcans and Romulans. This is because if it tried to actually speak in the same way about african americans or japanese, it wouldn't be funded.

[CosmiComic]

This question has already been answered many times here. It's outdated because at this point if you wanna talk about discrimination of gay people you can also afford, and have a duty, to have gay people portraying it. Metaphors exist for when a subject isn't socially acceptable. Star Trek talked about discrimination way back in the 60s, but it didn't use any of the actual minorities to do that. Instead it used Spock and Vulcans and Romulans. This is because if it tried to actually speak in the same way about african americans or japanese, it wouldn't be funded.

That's really what it's all about. Talking about this stuff back then was taboo because culture was politically correct towards White men. That's not the case anymore, at least not totally

[ChronoRogue]

I don't see how that matters. There are plenty of examples of people that develop disabilties, and of x-men that are born with mutations. Your "criticism" of my defense of the disabilty metaphor is very forced. And it's ironic that the arguments against mutants being a metaphor for racism or homophobia far outnumber the arguments against the disability metaphor. I could list 10 or more reasons why mutants being african americans or gay is dumb.

It matters because it's a standard. You are not expected to develop a disability at puberty, at puberty mutants are expected get powers and have their x-gene activated; mutants who get them at an older age at outliers. There are exceptions but it's rarer and that is the lore. And as stated, you would still need to restructure the entire franchise to inherently have negative repercussions which doesn't work with established lore. That is an upheaval of way too many things just to fit one group better.

And sure, we could talk circles citing more reasons why none of the minorities are perfect fits but that's the entire reason it's a metaphor.

Yes, racial groups to skew to certain policies. None of them have to do with social acceptance. Most Arabic families tend to be against gay marriage (but there are plenty of arabic families that aren't). That's why the x-gene can't represent all these minorities, because their worldviews often contradict one another. I honeslty don't see how the x-gene helps any story that could be about the actual minority.

Hum, the characters? And 20 years ago is a very different time from today. Things changed drastically both in society and in representation in media.

Eh... that really depends on culture and exposure than race. If we're talking about racial groups with heterogeneous countries than I'd argue against that. Its definitely not perfect because we can just point to any of the tension occurring right now in america and various countries but still. But if it's a racial group with a near homogeneous racial demographic, then of course not.

The common theme with the X-Men is how power dynamics affect their interaction with a majority and that's basically the thread that runs through all these groups and what I've been trying to express. Are their differences in beliefs, culture and experiences? Yes but that's the lens the comics usually focus on. (to be fair, I would be totally open to them exploring differences among different mutant cultures and groups but we're barely getting there and Krakoa is still acting like a unified nation)

I think you are in the mind that this metaphor is a replacement for minority stories, I'm not making that argument. I'm stating it helps to express themes and messages in a way that widens it's pool of audience.

I see, well I'm sad to see something you might have liked or at least tolerated before has become something you seem to dislike.

[Alpha]

It matters because it's a standard. You are not expected to develop a disability at puberty, at puberty mutants are expected get powers and have their x-gene activated; mutants who get them at an older age at outliers. There are exceptions but it's rarer and that is the lore. And as stated, you would still need to restructure the entire franchise to inherently have negative repercussions which doesn't work with established lore. That is an upheaval of way too many things just to fit one group better.

And sure, we could talk circles citing more reasons why none of the minorities are perfect fits but that's the entire reason it's a metaphor.

in 99% of cases where mutants develop mutations at puberty, they weren't previiously aware that they were mutants. So that point about "expectations" isn't true at all. And I'm not sure you we could run in circles with the disability metaphor. Right now I've been presented with only one legitimate critique, that changing how mutant powers work would mean changing every single character. I don't see this as a bad thing though. We could just have the new generation of mutants have a deeply unstable variation of the x-gene that functions the way I mentioned, power with a body sacrifice (or just a mental development sacrifice). You are offering problems even though the solutions are quite easy if you are open to them.

The common theme with the X-Men is how power dynamics affect their interaction with a majority and that's basically the thread that runs through all these groups and what I've been trying to express. Are their differences in beliefs, culture and experiences? Yes but that's the lens the comics usually focus on. (to be fair, I would be totally open to them exploring differences among different mutant cultures and groups but we're barely getting there and Krakoa is still acting like a unified nation)

I think you are in the mind that this metaphor is a replacement for minority stories, I'm not making that argument. I'm stating it helps to express themes and messages in a way that widens it's pool of audience.

Give me an example of how you would use the mutant metaphor in a story so I can judge if that "message" is actually interesting. I stand by what I said about how the mutant metaphor doesn't make a story more insightful today.

I see, well I'm sad to see something you might have liked or at least tolerated before has become something you seem to dislike.

It's not something I dislike, I didn't lose my interest or enjoyment of the franchise, I just find it inadequate. It's not moving with the times and it is rarely open to actual change (aside from the Hickman era, but I'm still not sure if it will all go down in a positive direction for the franchise).