Should the MCU X-men lean heavily into the minority metophor?

[CosmiComic]

Plus, the metaphor doesn't work in terms of actual on-screen representation

[ChronoRogue]

I've already had this argument before. You guys like to think that just because people have done it this way nothing needs to change. So even though I know you aren't really open to contemplating these things seriously and will just revert to the status quo, I will still try to show you the important reasons why we are way past the mutant metaphor as it stands.

We don't need Star Trek to make metaphors for homophobia or racism. In fact, if we want to talk about those issues seriously then we use characters that actually belong to the group we are addressing. This happens for two reasons. First of all for the purposes of representation. The more we are exposed to people different from us the more we are able to overcome whatever it is that makes us discriminate.

These issues are not mutually exclusive. Also you are being unrealistic if you think Hollywood or comics in general are able to cover the vast majority of ethnic and racial groups out there.

We are still lacking in areas like trans representation, POC male characters, etc... within the X-Men comics themselves let alone the movies. And that's with a library of thousands of characters.

Should we do better? Yes. Does that mean the metaphor should go? No.

It's not like the metaphor is holding the X-Men back, because since when have other teams like the JL or Avengers been telling these stories?

The second reason, is that "love each other" and "everyone should be equal and free" aren't THE important debates we need to have as a society anymore, and those messages don't fix any of our problems. If we want to talk about police brutality then we need to talk about the relationship between brown skin and authority over the centuries. We need to talk about black culture which is something that can only be understood as it is because of brown skin and because of an group of people whose culture was tsken from them and lost their family tree. We need to talk about the infrastructures we have, both governmental and capitalism and how the have an impact on policing and crime. These are the reasons why there is a divergence in how police should operate or even on how they should be fixed. The mutant metaphor doesn't work here for so many reasons.

And you think those concepts or ideas can't be explored in the X-Men or in other marvel titles? Nothing is stopping people from writing similar situations except the writers. I do think we need more POC writers though to have that lens. Also I'm pretty sure series like Luke Cage already covered some of what you talked about.

As for government power and infrastructure, that can still be explored within the metaphor. But again, this is comics, it's only going to get so deep in terms of social commentary. It's juggles both entertainment with themes and messages.

Also, the idea that mutants can both be discriminated as a group but also represent all kinds of "otherness" doesn't work in terms of storytelling. There are Gay people that are against trans supporting laws, because being gay has nothing to do with being trans, and the reasons why they are discriminated are totally different from each other. There are anti trans laws feminists whose worldview defines feminism as the opposite of transgender, for entirely logical reasons in their minds. Black people, just like any other ethnicity, have communities that are against lgbt, and their reasons for it can't be dismissed simply through saying that they are both discriminated. Same thing apllies to some arabic communities and LGBT.

Because minority groups can still discriminate doesn't negate the fact that their discriminated against. It just means there are different layers, social pressure and identities within umbrella term groups. Tribalism doesn't stop at one level, heck the mutant vs mutant concept that we had for decades kinda exemplified this as well as characters like Apocalypse, a bit in exaggerated and comic-booky fashion.

We should have more nuances to this though, I agree. Just because mutants all share a gene doesn't mean they won't create their own groups that can express this idea of minority on minority discrimination.

The "otherness" concept just has no practical use anymore, unless you want your stories to be completely irrelevant and unrelatable.

I don't agree at all. The fact that there are deeper layers to minority groups, how they function and how bigger and smaller groups function with or against them can still be expressed through this metaphor. It's not really arguing against anything except that mutants need to go to identifying less as one analogous group but we know Krakoa won't last.

Do Goth people and nerds have a special reason why they should relate to the plight of the black man and woman aside from feeling alienated?

Yes, the fact they are alienated should elicit sympathy and understanding. There is a loss of power, a stigma attached to certain undesirable identities and how the dynamics of that create hierarchies in our social systems. It doesn't always happen that people will use their own experiences to relate to other groups, sometimes people will just use them as scapegoats instead but it does happen. I don't need to be the same race, social status, etc... to relate to people and metaphors can help get that across. Though that has sadly failed some portion of X-Men readers...

And again, I would never pretend that Wolverine can be used in a metaphor for a minority, but if we added a degree of sacrifice to every mutant power then we could turn the mutant metaphor into a good metaphor for disbilities and I will explain why.

The simplest notion of the metaphor would be, your body has made it harder for you to live a normal life, but you have gained another kind of power, and that's what you have to embrace. This could work with a blind person, or with a paraplegic, or with siamese twins, qnd with many other things. Find your special power and make it shine.

The greatest part about this metaphor is that every single mutant has a different reason why their body has failed them, but they can all think of themselves as a community, just like many communities for the disabled unite different categories of disabled together in that shared sense of pain. The X-mansion ( or in this case Krakoa) works really well as a place where the disabled mutants come to stay and have an easier life surrounded by others that can help them find their way thorugh this difficulty. Think of Professor X, a paraplegic, helping Cyclops, sort of blind, overcome his hard ship through training, which is similar to physical therapy for some disabilities.

This disabled metaphor also works with theme of mutation. Some disabilities are literally mutations. Parents would be scared of passing down the X-gene just like real parents are scared of actual genetic mutations that can be passed down. And while they are seen as "genetic failures" the message of the X-men is that we should look at them as potential for evolution and change. They aren't any less than us, they are nature experimenting with life, in somewhat scary ways, but with time they become less scary. Lots of mental disbilities also work really well with this. "They don't think less, they just think different".

And the truth is that regardless of how society changes, this metaphor will always work, whereas other minorities make less sense as time goes on and their place in society changes. Disabilities will always be a repressed minority.

I don't think that quite works out. Not every mutation in inherently debilitating. How is someone like Emma living like someone with a disability? Jubilee or Dazzler? Northstar whose power has literally let him break records that normal people can't do? Also most mutants are not born with their mutations, they get them at puberty. They aren't socialized with this mentality until well into adolescence.

Just like with the minority metaphor it breaks apart the closer you look at it. I think it works fine one of the many groups it can encompass, but on the basis on that it's an "other" group. Also if you think minority discrimination will be resolved anytime soon, I don't know what to tell you. It definitely changed but it's still present and real in many places. The concept of the other will not disappear for a long, long time.

[CosmiComic]

Characters from other teams are telling more of these stories than X-Men are, at least from what I've seen. Have X-Men ever actually dealt with real bigotry?

Also, if the comics and other media need to do better, how does a metaphor help actual representation?

[rcaguy]

No. MCU X-MEN movie are going to be loud, action packed, very funny, CGI driven, mass manufactured directed and would build up the MCU more.

Disney won't white wash MCU XMEN , because Hollywood now has a rule that all films must be diverse. A lot of mutants are going to be of new race with half-assed outcome like Michelle Jones is the Mary Jane we will not call mary jane.

Youre describing what amounts to be a half-assed Movie already. Notice you *DIDN'T* mention anything at all about having a decent plot or characters that actually resemble themselves in this sorry excuse for a film.

[ChronoRogue]

Characters from other teams are telling more of these stories than X-Men are, at least from what I've seen. Have X-Men ever actually dealt with real bigotry?

Also, if the comics and other media need to do better, how does a metaphor help actual representation?

Do you mean mutants acknowledging inter-sectional racism? Yes. Also one infamous Kitty scene...

Because comics are not going to cover every minority group in existence or tell everyone's story. Having a group serve as an outsider perspective or out-group still serves a purpose.

And again, since comics need to balance entertainment with commentary, they are not always going to play "hard-ball" or extremes with real life discrimination in the same way a metaphor allows them to explore. Can you imagine if the MU government allowed minorities to be persecuted and killed by government approved sentinels like they do mutants? lmao, yet things like the Tuskegee experiment do happen even if it's not as overt as mutant-killing robots.

As for helping representation, the cores and themes teach people who might not be as willing to hear or read social commentary through conventional means. Entertainment makes it more digestible for the masses.

If we REALLY wanted to learn about discrimination and representation, comics would never be the best avenue. That's proper classes and history. Entertainment media is just meant to story-tell using real life themes but it's core goal is still entertainment at the bottom line and people will shut something off if they feel like they are getting lectured or hit over the head with certain things. The point is to make these stories poignant enough for them to care regardless but it's a fine line.

[CosmiComic]

Do you mean mutants acknowledging inter-sectional racism? Yes. Also one infamous Kitty scene...

Because comics are not going to cover every minority group in existence or tell everyone's story. Having a group serve as an outsider perspective or out-group still serves a purpose.

And again, since comics need to balance entertainment with commentary, they are not always going to play "hard-ball" or extremes with real life discrimination in the same way a metaphor allows them to explore. Can you imagine if the MU government allowed minorities to be persecuted and killed by government approved sentinels like they do mutants? lmao, yet things like the Tuskegee experiment do happen even if it's not as overt as mutant-killing robots.

As for helping representation, the cores and themes teach people who might not be as willing to hear or read social commentary through conventional means. Entertainment makes it more digestible for the masses.

If we REALLY wanted to learn about discrimination and representation, comics would never be the best avenue. That's proper classes and history. Entertainment media is just meant to story-tell using real life themes but it's core goal is still entertainment at the bottom line and people will shut something off if they feel like they are getting lectured or hit over the head with certain things. The point is to make these stories poignant enough for them to care regardless but it's a fine line.

No offense, but how did you get to that point? Idk if anyone's saying comics should become PSAs. And why is explaining these things not a part of entertainment? In my experience I've seen people complain more about preaching than I've actually seen preaching.

And modern minority groups aren't targeted like the mutants are in the MU for the most part. Prejudice functions in more insidious ways, unless you're discussing situations like the Rohingya. And why can't superheroes fight against actual racism? Black Panther and Falcon and Winter Soldier have already approached racism with more realness than any of the X-Men movies. What precludes future MCU projects doing the same?

Idk which X-Men comics have dealt with actually bigotry, but I may not have read them.

[FluffyCyclopsRLZ]

Honestly don't know. Aren't the current batch of B-list Avengers being turned into X-Men Lite anyway? Would anyone be surprised if the MCU X-Men end up becoming its Inhumans?

[Grey]

Yes, but in the context of the modern world we live in.

In other words an updated version of the mutant metaphor and ALL the ways one can be persecuted, both obvious and insidious.

[ChronoRogue]

No offense, but how did you get to that point? Idk if anyone's saying comics should become PSAs. And why is explaining these things not a part of entertainment? In my experience I've seen people complain more about preaching than I've actually seen preaching.

And modern minority groups aren't targeted like the mutants are in the MU for the most part. Prejudice functions in more insidious ways, unless you're discussing situations like the Rohingya. And why can't superheroes fight against actual racism? Black Panther and Falcon and Winter Soldier have already approached racism with more realness than any of the X-Men movies. What precludes future MCU projects doing the same?

Idk which X-Men comics have dealt with actually bigotry, but I may not have read them.

It's not part of the entertainment because you end up alienating part of the audience which you are trying to reach out to. You're not trying to reach the people who already understand racism is bad but groups who have radicalized or desensitized, it's a Trojan Horse method of teaching about social commentary. As for what is "preaching" that will differ from person to person, which is the point about it being subtle but enough to be recognizable by the reader.

Modern minority groups aren't targeted like mutants in most western countries, that doesn't mean genocide or more insidious discrimination doesn't happen or continues to exist. No one said superheroes can't fight against actual racism, I was explaining what purpose the metaphor served in the context of the X-Men and why it matters. Again, digestible material upon a wider audience.

Black Panther, Falcon and Winter Soldier have dealt with minority discrimination within a certain group. Where is the representation for discrimination of LGBT, disabled (as we just discussed in the posts above), and all the numerous other out groups? Is Marvel going to explore every avenue of discrimination? I doubt it.

And yes but if I recall from the Captain Marvel thread correctly, you are not very familiar with Chris Claremont's work which is what I'm referencing.

[Grey]

Honestly don't know. Aren't the current batch of B-list Avengers being turned into X-Men Lite anyway? Would anyone be surprised if the MCU X-Men end up becoming its Inhumans?

I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t considered this possibility. Especially if they go the krakoa route. Mutants could end up becoming more inhuman like narratively speaking. And I’m not such a big fan of that.

As much as I dislike about the mcu, they do a lot of things right, so I’m giving them
The benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

[CosmiComic]

It's not part of the entertainment because you end up alienating part of the audience which you are trying to reach out to. You're not trying to reach the people who already understand racism is bad but groups who have radicalized or desensitized, it's a Trojan Horse method of teaching about social commentary. As for what is "preaching" that will differ from person to person, which is the point about it being subtle but enough to be recognizable by the reader.

Modern minority groups aren't targeted like mutants in most western countries, that doesn't mean genocide or more insidious discrimination doesn't happen or continues to exist. No one said superheroes can't fight against actual racism, I was explaining what purpose the metaphor served in the context of the X-Men and why it matters. Again, digestible material upon a wider audience.

Black Panther, Falcon and Winter Soldier have dealt with minority discrimination within a certain group. Where is the representation for discrimination of LGBT, disabled (as we just discussed in the posts above), and all the numerous other out groups? Is Marvel going to explore every avenue of discrimination? I doubt it.

And yes but if I recall from the Captain Marvel thread correctly, you are not very familiar with Chris Claremont's work which is what I'm referencing.

I'm semi-familar with Claremont now, but it's patchy.

Anyway, I'm not saying MCU has to thoroughly explain every instance of every bigotry against every minorty. I'm saying it's more meaningful to show heroes fighting some form of actual bigotry

Maybe the metaphor is digestible to a wider audience, but it also leads people to pretend they're progressive by giving the most basic perfunctory statement of "prejudice is bad". It's not very deep. On the other hand, a lot of alienated people may actually be more drawn to something specific, something they've actually experienced. Maybe those audiences weren't as interested in stories mainly focusing on White heroes yet preaching diversity.

[CosmiComic]

Honestly don't know. Aren't the current batch of B-list Avengers being turned into X-Men Lite anyway? Would anyone be surprised if the MCU X-Men end up becoming its Inhumans?

Idk what you mean by that

[Alpha]

And you think those concepts or ideas can't be explored in the X-Men or in other marvel titles? Nothing is stopping people from writing similar situations except the writers. I do think we need more POC writers though to have that lens. Also I'm pretty sure series like Luke Cage already covered some of what you talked about.

Because minority groups can still discriminate doesn't negate the fact that their discriminated against. It just means there are different layers, social pressure and identities within umbrella term groups. Tribalism doesn't stop at one level, heck the mutant vs mutant concept that we had for decades kinda exemplified this as well as characters like Apocalypse, a bit in exaggerated and comic-booky fashion.

We should have more nuances to this though, I agree. Just because mutants all share a gene doesn't mean they won't create their own groups that can express this idea of minority on minority discrimination.

I don't agree at all. The fact that there are deeper layers to minority groups, how they function and how bigger and smaller groups function with or against them can still be expressed through this metaphor. It's not really arguing against anything except that mutants need to go to identifying less as one analogous group but we know Krakoa won't last.

It's not that they discriminate, it's that the reasons why they are discriminated against, and why they discriminate are totally different. It doesn't come from a place of fearing the other when it comes to discussions about things like affirmative action or even being stopped at an airport.

Your point makes sense if you use a character like Luke Cage / Black Lightning and have them relate to Hulkling/ Batwoman. It doesn't make sense if you have a character like Storm and Northstar and imply that they are both discriminated on because of the x-gene. The x-gene dilutes the conversation because in this important situation you have to ignore the mutant aspect and acknowledge that their complicated lifes are because of their skin color and sexuality.

Yes, the fact they are alienated should elicit sympathy and understanding. There is a loss of power, a stigma attached to certain undesirable identities and how the dynamics of that create hierarchies in our social systems. It doesn't always happen that people will use their own experiences to relate to other groups, sometimes people will just use them as scapegoats instead but it does happen. I don't need to be the same race, social status, etc... to relate to people and metaphors can help get that across. Though that has sadly failed some portion of X-Men readers...

And you don't feel like that message is much more poignant if we use real world examples rather than say that they both have an x-gene? Don't you think it's better to say that tgese people have nothing in common except alienation itself, and that's why they should sympathize? I still think it's a ridiculous idea to imply that "alienation" creates sympathy for problems much, much more complicated than ours, but whatever. How is a shared sense of alienation going to help me decide if I feel that affirmative action is a good thing or a bad thing.

I don't think that quite works out. Not every mutation in inherently debilitating. How is someone like Emma living like someone with a disability? Jubilee or Dazzler? Northstar whose power has literally let him break records that normal people can't do? Also most mutants are not born with their mutations, they get them at puberty. They aren't socialized with this mentality until well into adolescence.

Just like with the minority metaphor it breaks apart the closer you look at it. I think it works fine one of the many groups it can encompass, but on the basis on that it's an "other" group. Also if you think minority discrimination will be resolved anytime soon, I don't know what to tell you. It definitely changed but it's still present and real in many places. The concept of the other will not disappear for a long, long time.

I expressly stated that for this to work writers would have to change how mutant powers work, by adding a sacrifice to every characters power. Blindness, spinal injury, siamese twins, etc. I mentioned that Wolverine for example wouldn't work as a metaphor for anything, let alone disabilities.

As far as your other points, disabilities aren't always all from birth either. Those mutants might have once been perfectly normal and then one day their gene activates, just like when a kid develops a disease that takes away his ability to walk when he is 12, or makes him deaf, or anything else.

[Alpha]

In fact, you tell me how exactly would the mutant metaphor would be used in films and what they would represent. Give me an actual scene where the metalhor would be present.

[Zelena]

And you don't feel like that message is much more poignant if we use real world examples rather than say that they both have an x-gene? Don't you think it's better to say that tgese people have nothing in common except alienation itself, and that's why they should sympathize? I still think it's a ridiculous idea to imply that "alienation" creates sympathy for problems much, much more complicated than ours, but whatever. How is a shared sense of alienation going to help me decide if I feel that affirmative action is a good thing or a bad thing.

I think too that it’s hard for people who go and watch movies to understand why having the X-gene is a stigma.

If a movie is about discrimation, it’s better to use real discrimination, it’s something that would work better than explaining that being born with a X-gene can lead you to have a weird appearance or a destructive power or you are just not normal but we don’t know how… and it frightens people.
It adds complications that are not necessary.