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  1. #166
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    I really don't get how anyone will say, this is trauma porn they don't want to watch in MCU XMEN.

    The sentinels are one of the most famous villains in comics and perhaps the most iconic AI villains in comics. Every Xmen adaption has never escaped not using them and shown just how deadly and ruthless they are.



    They are basically the Terminators of the X-Universe. If you remove them from the X-Men lore, it damages it.
    Last edited by Castle; 05-18-2021 at 06:33 AM.

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    The X-Men are not the Mutant Avengers. this is just not the truth. Even when X-MEN had crossovers with X-Force, New Mutants and X-Factor, no fan ever said, this is a Mutant Avengers team. I have never heard that before and I have been an XMEN fan for almost 30+ years and studied their almost 70 year history, even Chris Claremont has said XMEN is different from Avengers or Spiderman.

    X-Men and Avengers have nothing in common in concept and in the real world, they should not even share a universe because thy reason they both exist should not make much of sense in the same universe. this is the reason why the most common question asked about xmen now that people know more about Avengers, is...... why do people fear the xmen and not avengers.

    I am sorry but some people just need to this with over the top MCU propaganda stuff about X-MEN. it is too trying too hard to make X-MEN 100% fit in the MCU when they mostly don't, the proof is the 90s cartoon. that show treated xmen like the rest of the other marvel series such as Iron Man and Captain America, Daredevil and F4 did not exist, when it was not the same approach they used the 90s Spiderman cartoon.
    The X-men ran from 1963 to 1981. Please show me the stories where race and oppression where huge part of X-men. The X-men started as Superhero team that loose ties to minor metaphor aka they were mutant "avengers". Chris Claremont was the guy who mold the X-men into truly the minority metaphor but before that X-men generic super heroing. Freaking Iceman and Angel where on champions, Beast was Avengers. There weren't created to be that different from other superheroes.

    People were saying what would the X-men be would the heavy handed minority metaphor that they developed over the years, They would just be "Mutant Avengers" well yeah that is what they start as basically

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    I'm pretty sure most of the MCU X-Men will be played by POC. Even Emma can be played as a Nicki Minaj or American Naomi Campbell type. Just saying.
    Also Blue Marvel, Sam Wilson or Luke Cage are not mutants. Marvel been a fiction universe, treat all this characters moslty as superheroes fighting bad guys with little thematical focus. In the marvel universe, it is better to be a POC human, than a mutant or worse a mutant POC.

  4. #169
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    The X-men ran from 1963 to 1981. Please show me the stories where race and oppression where huge part of X-men. The X-men started as Superhero team that loose ties to minor metaphor aka they were mutant "avengers". Chris Claremont was the guy who mold the X-men into truly the minority metaphor but before that X-men generic super heroing. Freaking Iceman and Angel where on champions, Beast was Avengers. There weren't created to be that different from other superheroes.

    Peopl
    e were saying what would the X-men be would the heavy handed minority metaphor that they developed over the years, They would just be "Mutant Avengers" well yeah that is what they start as basically[/QUOTE]
    From the 1970s. Most of the xmen stories dealt with this issues since You asked me to show you.

    God Loves Man Kills
    The Mutant Massacre
    Days of Future Past

    Just to name a few.

    Also move to the 90s, which some will argue was when xmen really made it big with XMEN TAS. That cartoon main stories arc was on those themes of race and oppression, the first episode Night of the Sentinels was focused on this issue to the last episode Gradation Day was also focused on this theme. in the 72 episodes, it was reoccurring.

    X-MEN Evolution season 3 was focused on the mutants dealing with racism prejudice and oppression with many black mutants characters like Storm, Evan and Magma and even Amanda who was human getting major arcs in the stories about mutant racism. Everything I have said now is fact about the X-MEN universe.

    Also every other writer after Claremont who wanted to live up to him, dealt with this themes. Joss Whedon's Gifted to name a few and Grant Morrison xmen run, are proof of it. Some would even argue Morrison's run went deeper than Claremont because he made the mutant race feel more cultural with tradition like the Jewish culture. .

    People were saying what would the X-men be would the heavy handed minority metaphor that they developed over the years, They would just be "Mutant Avengers" well yeah that is what they start as basically
    No, people never said this, the some that did are MCU fans, who have realised that MCU would not be able to handle these themes in a mature and deep way that xmen has done in many platforms. so the best way to deal with this ''problem'' is to just try and erase it from the X-men mythos. I will assure all , it is going to backfire.

    Even if I was to only use the MCU POV and just focus on comic book movies only in the mcu era. Please how did films like XMEN First Class and DOFP stand out and feel so different , seen as more intellectual comic films that were taken far more seriously against the light hearted fun action packed comedy driven MCU films where none of those type of themes were present even if they already had black characters like War Machine and Nick Fury?

    Oh, X-MEN is not the Mutant Avengers. that is a cooperate studio formula from Disney and this is about to fail in the movies.
    Last edited by Castle; 05-18-2021 at 06:09 AM.

  5. #170
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    From the 1970s. Most of the xmen stories dealt with this issues since You asked me to show you.

    God Loves Man Kills
    The Mutant Massacre
    Days of Future Past

    Just to name a few.
    God Loves Man Kills 1982
    The Mutant Massacre 1986
    Days of Future Past 1981

    I asked a question with a specific time frame for a specific reason. The X-men got canceled in 1970 and republish until 1975 , It got relaunch in 1975. Chris Claremont starts at Marvel in 1975 at X-men but really caught his stride in 1978 and 1980 he wrote Dark Phoenix Saga. What is the point of all this history? The point before Chris Claremont again the person who really made minority metaphor connection there was an X-men book and it was very much typically superhero stuff with a sprinkle of minority metaphor. The X-men was an "Outsider" metaphor more than it was a minority metaphor when it first started.

    Now people in this very thread ask the question(see below comments) what would X-men be without its minority metaphor emphasis saying it would be "Mutant Avengers"

    Quote Originally Posted by useridgoeshere View Post
    If they don’t, what makes the X-Men unique? What’s the point of going in a Mutant Avengers (ordinary superhero team) or Mutant Guardians (space explorers) route? They could just introduce the characters and not do X-Men at all if that’s the way to go.
    Quote Originally Posted by johnnysv75 View Post
    To me X-Men is a story about minorities. That is why I love them. Without that angle, they would be any other superhero team.
    I was replying to general sentiment by saying before Claremont took over the book, And even when he was on the book for some years that. The X-men was heavily a superhero concept that didn't lean on its outsider/minority metaphor. Without heavy reliance on that stuff that is what the X-men is and again you can look the X-men from 1963 to 1975 you will see X-men is mostly superhero stuff. Obviously playing up the minority Metaphor improved the X-men( along with better characters like Wolverine, Nightcrawler, and Storm) but the core of the X-men isn't "hated and fear" as much Stan Lee wants people to believe that really came with Chris Claremont.

    The point isn't that the X-men shouldn't ever use minority metaphor or hate and fear gimmick, The point is X-men franchise is very much Superheroes that goes to the Savage Land fights Dinosaur people, Fights Dracula, Fight aliens in Space like the Shiar and Brood, Fight giant island monsters like Krakoa or living monolith, Fight demons and other magical beings limbo or otherworld, Fight robots that aren't Sentinels, Fight Arcade and his stupid traps, Go to the mojoverse,etc
    People need to stop pretending that X-men can't do things other than being mutant oppression porn.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 05-18-2021 at 06:31 AM.

  6. #171
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    This is not true,to be dear to u, the reflex mirror of this is true, this is the reason X-MEN is more seen as a drama than an action series. Here is someone explaining it. In this video.


    in the history of xmen, there is more drama and soap opera settings than fighting. this is why neither Xavier or magneto ever fought in any of the movies where this issue themes was the main focus I feel topic like this will bold more well, if there was not much false narratives told about the XMEN universe and comics and sadly I seem to notice, this started becoming a pattern when it became official that xmen will be in the MCU.




    this is part of the issue we talk about what you described is more of mature and darker story and it has already happened to great critical acclaim both in books and films and even cartoons.

    When DOFP first aired on TAS in 1992/1993, it was a ground breaking moment for Saturday morning cartoon because kids were not used to seeing stories like that. stories that dealt with genocide, people been hunted down and sent to concentration camps.

    Bryan Singer was...is gay/bi sexual, he directed Days of future past the movie and he talked about how the story affected him as a disfranchised person and how anyone who was different can relate to it. in that film, the speech Magneto gave. Magneto says in quote....''come out...no more hiding''. Which is obviously about LGBT people in the closest.

    As a person who is a big xmen fan, taking to a big MCU fan as you are, you having no desire to relate to it because MCU cannot make do a Sentinel based film like DOFP, does not change the reality of what has been done. Also it confirms why we wants X-Men to be separate from the MCU, calling it ''trauma porn'' is just objectively not true because many xmen characters have dealt with this trauma of the Sentinels hunting them down but this is why we say xmen stories were mature because they explore all this themes deeply and knew how to handle this sort of adult themes even in their 90s cartoons.

    Some MCU fans having no desire to see them, is not the fault of XMEN or their fans. the stories have already be written. DOFP, E is for Extinction, Schism just to name a few Sentinels focused stories I can remember of people been hunted down. Obviously MCU would not and can do these stories without having to water them down or turn them into comedy like Ragnarok, so some of their fans are now saying, they have no desire to see this stories as done in the comics is unfair, and this , actually disenfranchising many xmen fans, who would have no problem and would want to see these stories, . some can try and spin this any how they want but in the end, what this is really about is trying to justify dumbed down X-MEN movies from the MCU and that is not fair or right for the XMEN series
    You took my trauma porn comment soooo out of context. I’m literally saying I’m fine with Sentinels chasing mutants but I personally don’t need to see a movie where Giant robots are exclusively targeting actual minorities.

    Also we all know that God Loves, Man Kills is one specific story that spends more time discussing these issues than the average X-Men comic.

    Lastly, Magneto talking about “coming out” as someone with superpowers does absolutely nothing for me. Plus, maybe stop praising a director that people have been calling out as a pedophile for the past 20+ years.

  7. #172
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    Why would Sentinels even attack minorities? I assume if MCU X-Men dealt with racism, it would be racism as it is, not hyped up to killer robots

  8. #173
    Incredible Member Doom'nGloom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    X-Men and Avengers have nothing in common in concept and in the real world, they should not even share a universe because thy reason they both exist should not make much of sense in the same universe. this is the reason why the most common question asked about xmen now that people know more about Avengers, is...... why do people fear the xmen and not avengers.
    I don't get this when real world racism can be even more nonsensical. At least in the comics mutants are presented as a different species compared to homo sapiens which may one day completely replace humanity. Also the x-gene is extremely unpredictable. You can be a literal god or just have sharp teeth. While in real life people are prone to hating each other because of their skin color or which god they worship.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Non-racist people?
    Sounds a bit like "nasties" *hint hint*

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    The point isn't that the X-men shouldn't ever use minority metaphor or hate and fear gimmick, The point is X-men franchise is very much Superheroes that goes to the Savage Land fights Dinosaur people, Fights Dracula, Fight aliens in Space like the Shiar and Brood, Fight giant island monsters like Krakoa or living monolith, Fight demons and other magical beings limbo or otherworld, Fight robots that aren't Sentinels, Fight Arcade and his stupid traps, Go to the mojoverse,etc
    People need to stop pretending that X-men can't do things other than being mutant oppression porn.
    Yeah, isn't what separates the X-Men from other teams the same thing which separates all teams: the plots and characters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doom'nGloom View Post
    I don't get this when real world racism can be even more nonsensical. At least in the comics mutants are presented as a different species compared to homo sapiens which may one day completely replace humanity. Also the x-gene is extremely unpredictable. You can be a literal god or just have sharp teeth. While in real life people are prone to hating each other because of their skin color or which god they worship.
    Yeah, but real world racism is also built on centuries of propaganda and marginalization.

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    You took my trauma porn comment soooo out of context. I’m literally saying I’m fine with Sentinels chasing mutants but I personally don’t need to see a movie where Giant robots are exclusively targeting actual minorities.

    Also we all know that God Loves, Man Kills is one specific story that spends more time discussing these issues than the average X-Men comic.

    Lastly, Magneto talking about “coming out” as someone with superpowers does absolutely nothing for me. Plus, maybe stop praising a director that people have been calling out as a pedophile for the past 20+ years.
    if it does nothing for you because it is a fox film. but what about the other people that it does something for? people who don't care about which studios make marvel films and just want to see xmen stories best put fort? as a person of color, who is not gay, it did a lot of me because sometimes I never used to tell people where I was original from due to shame that my real country was labelled a third world country in USA eyes.

    It was not one issue. it was a reoccurring theme in Claremont's 16 years run. Also remember that the 90s cartoon where on tv at the height of the 90s xmen comics, and this theme was a hot topic in both. Claremont was not even a main xmen writer anymore in the 90s.

    Lastly Singer been a paedophile can be separated form his art. Singer's personal life does not change the truth that he explored and really digged deep with this theme when he made the movies. the one of the few things he got right with xmen.

    This scene by Singer is the worst and deadliest form of oppression
    I have ever seen in a comic film and I say this not as a fan but as a film scholar.


    How can we now try and pretend, it never made sense just because xmen is now going to be in the MCU. It's seems way too far fetched.
    Last edited by Castle; 05-18-2021 at 07:05 AM.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doom'nGloom View Post
    I don't get this when real world racism can be even more nonsensical..
    Being nonsensical does not mean hate groups don't follow a pattern. I mean Nazis hate Jews but they have no problem extending that black people, White Suprematists hate black people during the trump era they easily adapted to hating Mexicans and Asians. Mutant hate makes sense in the strange way hating another race or religion makes sense what does not make sense is the people who irrational hate people just stop at Mutants, You are telling me that Aliens would a pass? Robots would get a pass? Norse Gods destroy the earth but racists are cool with Gods, Aliens attack the earth twice Eympre and King in Black those racists are cool with Aliens around?

    Racist can't tell difference between Muslim and Sikh will harass both of them but Human Torch gets a pass while Sunfire gets bothered. But in real life no matter how much you tell people that Obama is from the US even show birth certificate they still don't believe he is American. But we are supposed to believe irrational people hating people will be rational about superpowers. He said he is not a mutant so we believe him.

  13. #178
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    Isn't it just as likely non-mutants would look up to mutants or want to put them into positions of power?

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Yes, the problem is none of this people can actually tell us how it is outdated. LMAO.
    This question has already been answered many times here. It's outdated because at this point if you wanna talk about discrimination of gay people you can also afford, and have a duty, to have gay people portraying it. Metaphors exist for when a subject isn't socially acceptable.

    Star Trek talked about discrimination way back in the 60s, but it didn't use any of the actual minorities to do that. Instead it used Spock and Vulcans and Romulans. This is because if it tried to actually speak in the same way about african americans or japanese, it wouldn't be funded.

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    The so called mutant metaphor will never and should never be taken seriously as long as marvel tries to push the idea that the likes of Emma, Rogue, Logan, Lorna, Kitty, etc... suffer more racism, bigotry, prejudice and oppression than the Blue Marvel, Sam Wilson or Luke Cage. That outlook will never not be cringe and insulting. Put Emma and Sam Wilson side by side and ask a non comic reader who they think is more the victim of oppression and bigotry. Most if not all will say Sam and when told no actually it's the beautiful blonde rich white woman who experiences more bigotry and oppression either the one asking the question will get the side eye or outright laughed at, and the X-men franchise will most likely be seen as a joke for even suggesting that possibility. In this day and age no one thinks a rich white woman suffers more bigotry than a black man especially in the US, but they are supposed to think and accept that they do in X-men comics, it defies suspension of belief. In a world of make believe you can accept almost anything but some things you pump the breaks on. And this notion that beautiful white people with amazing abilities and living in a mansion or island paradise are oppressed more than black and brown people in the inner cities is one where you slam on the breaks hard. It's hard for anyone to take it seriously anymore.
    Also this.

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