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  1. #61
    BANNED Killerbee911's Avatar
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    There is a difference between Superheroes who are minor minority metaphor and telling superheroes stories with in the context of a minority metaphor . The X-men began as the first thing then turned into second thing. Oppression and Discrimination are PART of the X-men story, Oppression and Discrimination are not THE X-men story.

    Chris Claremont made a smart move when he tied in real world issues into X-men dna but heavy handed trying to keep X-men as oppressed minority has lead to worse moves in the franchise. Yes the MCU should move away from being a heavily minority metaphor because many fans don't want to face repercussion of the actions take by humans in the fiction. They want seem to want this bright optimistic view coexistence in the face of mutant race destruction.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcaguy View Post
    Youre describing what amounts to be a half-assed Movie already. Notice you *DIDN'T* mention anything at all about having a decent plot or characters that actually resemble themselves in this sorry excuse for a film.
    I did, but just did not mention it directly because I trust some people will get my inside joke.

    Speaking of this minority methphor issue. Fox has done it several times and it is the only fox movies that had good flesh to chew.
    I am all in for story telling and decent plot , infact I have said this 10x over on the TV/Forum thread but I guess never said it here on X Books, but did you know the first X-MEN film was so story focused that not even once did Magneto and Xavier ever trade blows or fight each other? here is the proof.



    which is beyond a rare for a superhero film that the main rivals dont even fight once in the entire film and ironically it feels more worth it that , that movie main focus was the minority metaphor angle though Magneto is Jewish and Storm was African, so it was not just a metaphor and that film was carried simply for the story and themes only.

    Do I agree with you that it will be a sorry excuse of a film if a film has no decent plot or characters that look like their comics counterpart, sure but this is not the standard to judge comic films anymore. this is not X1 of 21 years gone by. things are different both from a political and social place as well as an artistic place. Also since diversity is such big add on and Hollywood not has rules to make sure, films have diversity. a movie in 2021 and beyond can get praised just for diversity only and not because it has a decent plot.
    Last edited by Castle; 05-17-2021 at 01:44 AM.

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member ChronoRogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I'm semi-familar with Claremont now, but it's patchy.

    Anyway, I'm not saying MCU has to thoroughly explain every instance of every bigotry against every minorty. I'm saying it's more meaningful to show heroes fighting some form of actual bigotry

    Maybe the metaphor is digestible to a wider audience, but it also leads people to pretend they're progressive by giving the most basic perfunctory statement of "prejudice is bad". It's not very deep. On the other hand, a lot of alienated people may actually be more drawn to something specific, something they've actually experienced. Maybe those audiences weren't as interested in stories mainly focusing on White heroes yet preaching diversity.
    It's a long 15 year run, so there's a lot of material there but yes CC did lean into this more than most writers.

    Yes and no. Again, superhero comics are entertainment and at least some form of escapism. Some of the best superhero stories involve some real world issues and concerns but if you go overboard or make it a 1 to 1 comparison, you risk alienating audiences.

    I don't think I've seen any of those pretend they are progressive, actually there are plenty of conservatives who have read X-Men. Look up a youtube channel called The Fourth Age to see what I mean. I don't like or agree with his content at all but it shows that the X-Men have attracted and touched a wider audience. mostly it's just criticizing the modern X-Men as "SJW" material and poor stories but eh... As for deeper issues touching them, again a fine line. That's the point of the metaphor, poignant stories that attract wider audiences. There's a reason why the X-Men in particular became one of the most popular comic franchise for decades and it's not because they were a standard superhero group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha
    It's not that they discriminate, it's that the reasons why they are discriminated against, and why they discriminate are totally different. It doesn't come from a place of fearing the other when it comes to discussions about things like affirmative action or even being stopped at an airport.

    Your point makes sense if you use a character like Luke Cage / Black Lightning and have them relate to Hulkling/ Batwoman. It doesn't make sense if you have a character like Storm and Northstar and imply that they are both discriminated on because of the x-gene. The x-gene dilutes the conversation because in this important situation you have to ignore the mutant aspect and acknowledge that their complicated lifes are because of their skin color and sexuality.
    All discrimination comes from places associated with fear, power, and scapegoating. No, they are not always explicitly the same but it's rooted in ignorance and generalizations.

    Luke Cage, Black Lightning, Batwoman are all humans with powers, they are special circumstances that the audience is meant to interpret as something like an extraordinary occurrence; professional athletes, war heroes, rare and special people. Not someone you meant everyday down the street. Hulking is weird because he's literally an alien but his people are from other planets and so should concern people for different reasons. The prejudice and fear that are intended to spark from Storm and Northstar as mutants come from the fact that they represent a change in the human race, that humans will one day become obsolete or weaker in power.

    Some writers don't emphasize this enough, but people do fear becoming a minority in terms of socioeconomic power. It's a fear of resources that comes from a similar place as that stupid phrase "they're taking our jobs!", so yes, I could very much imagine people being scared of Northstar and Storm in the same way if you use the metaphor right because of what they represent; not what they look like. To be fair, mutants don't help their cause by labeling themselves as Homo Superior.

    And you don't feel like that message is much more poignant if we use real world examples rather than say that they both have an x-gene? Don't you think it's better to say that tgese people have nothing in common except alienation itself, and that's why they should sympathize? I still think it's a ridiculous idea to imply that "alienation" creates sympathy for problems much, much more complicated than ours, but whatever. How is a shared sense of alienation going to help me decide if I feel that affirmative action is a good thing or a bad thing.
    No because these are comic books and escapism, if these were documentaries or historical fiction you would have a better case, but it's superhero comics and people are not always looking for overt social commentary as you can see as answers in this very topic.

    Not that it can't happen, as people have brought up with the recent Falcon and Winter Soldier plus series; it's just writers need to walk a fine line between storytelling and that commentary. Something like the Legacy Virsus as a metaphor for AIDs is fine but you go too far and you risk alienating and insulting your audience. It becomes problematic when you write about real world issues affecting a group of fictional people because it's never going to be a 1 to 1 comparison in a soap opera fiction about a bunch of pretty people with powers. It's inherently not a medium that can handle topics under scrutiny or that delicately because of the fantasy world that makes up the MU. There can be exceptions if you use individuals as a story focus, sort of like how Arrow did with substance abuse or Batgirl with becoming Oracle, but those are the exception rather than the rule.

    As for implicating sympathy and empathy from being in an out-group and a shared loss of power, well... I just gave you the reason. Being in a minority should give you a clear understanding of power dynamics and a lack of power by being in a minority in terms of resources and status. It turns some individuals to seek that power by stepping on others, but it can also create a sense of unity and allies. I think that's sort of what Ayala's Children of the Atom is about actually, along with other things about escapism and feeling special.

    I expressly stated that for this to work writers would have to change how mutant powers work, by adding a sacrifice to every characters power. Blindness, spinal injury, siamese twins, etc. I mentioned that Wolverine for example wouldn't work as a metaphor for anything, let alone disabilities.

    As far as your other points, disabilities aren't always all from birth either. Those mutants might have once been perfectly normal and then one day their gene activates, just like when a kid develops a disease that takes away his ability to walk when he is 12, or makes him deaf, or anything else.
    And you are going to change near 40 years of history of X-Men to make this work? I don't think that's going to happen, it would require a lot of restructuring for the X-Men and make this way too AU. Especially if you plan on getting rid of characters like Wolverine.

    I understand that, but a vast amount of mutations do occur from puberty and NOT from birth. That's exactly why it does not work as a 1 to 1 comparison and why it sort of better compares to situations like a LGBT experiences. Again, it's a metaphor that covers more than one minority experience(s) and IMO works better that way.

  4. #64
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    I already said I didn't want it to be exactly like the real world, but to be more realistic. As for "escapism", I think a lot of people seeing superheroes stand up to bigotry in some way is a form of escapism. Ignoring that can also alienate audiences. You're acting like it's either/or with metaphor/brutal grisly realism. There's a middle ground there. Black Panther already did that. Many other movies do it too.

    And maybe the X-Men should change. Maybe what worked 40 years ago doesn't work today. I can imagine seeing someone like Emma Frost acting like a victim of racism in a movie or show may not go over well with today's audiences.

  5. #65
    Mighty Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Easy solution: Use several of the diverse characters the franchise already has, have the mutant metaphor in the background or as a sublplot, and then use any number of untapped X-Men storylines as the A-plot.

    Everybody wins.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    Easy solution: Use several of the diverse characters the franchise already has, have the mutant metaphor in the background or as a sublplot, and then use any number of untapped X-Men storylines as the A-plot.

    Everybody wins.
    Sounds good to me.

  7. #67
    Incredible Member davetvs's Avatar
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    Why are people always trying to divorce the X-Men from its core theme? The Avengers and Fantastic Four are right there if having to think about how minorities are treated in society makes you uncomfortable.

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member ChronoRogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I already said I didn't want it to be exactly like the real world, but to be more realistic. As for "escapism", I think a lot of people seeing superheroes stand up to bigotry in some way is a form of escapism. Ignoring that can also alienate audiences. You're acting like it's either/or with metaphor/brutal grisly realism. There's a middle ground there. Black Panther already did that. Many other movies do it too.

    And maybe the X-Men should change. Maybe what worked 40 years ago doesn't work today. I can imagine seeing someone like Emma Frost acting like a victim of racism in a movie or show may not go over well with today's audiences.
    The superhero genre is a power fantasy and a form of escapism yes, but not if you literally include the same real life events in the books; which is my point. I don't disagree with a middle ground but you kept asking what the purpose of the metaphor was and liked I've kept trying to tell you, it's to explore forms of discrimination that can be more extreme without alienating fans.

    I'd argue you alienate more people by going too close to real world examples because it brings in controversy and it's not the best medium to explore those themes, again pretty people with powers soap opera. Sort of like how politics is so polarized right now, instead of there being much middle ground.

    As for Blank Panther, it works because it's a solo character movie focused on that angle, it's not going to work as well with a cosmopolitan team with all sorts of backgrounds and ethnicities.

    The X-Men have changed, what do you think Krakoa is? As for Emma being a victim of racism no, but a victim of prejudice and discrimination because she's part of a minority group yes. Being white and wealthy does not exclude you from being a minority, a bit it does carry privileges as well, as lots of Hollywood celebrities can show.

    If you are saying there should be more minorities in the X-Men in more prominent roles, highly agree. That they should address discrimination in more complicated and direct forms? That is fine but writers need to be weary and delicate with it. But that the metaphor is purposeless and outdated in today's world? Hard disagree.
    Last edited by ChronoRogue; 05-17-2021 at 07:44 AM.

  9. #69
    Spectacular Member Doom'nGloom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    Easy solution: Use several of the diverse characters the franchise already has, have the mutant metaphor in the background or as a sublplot, and then use any number of untapped X-Men storylines as the A-plot.

    Everybody wins.
    Sounds good. Really hope MCU taps into the vast tapestry of x-characters and doesn't focus on the same faces every movie. A constantly changing team from project to project would be great.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    Why are people always trying to divorce the X-Men from its core theme? The Avengers and Fantastic Four are right there if having to think about how minorities are treated in society makes you uncomfortable.
    Is it its core theme, though? Each X-men writer defines what the X-men themes are.

    Although Claremont dived into the minority metaphor, he also wrote many other stories that had nothing to do with that. It was his versatility I liked and his capacity to go from drama to levity and surprise me.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    Why are people always trying to divorce the X-Men from its core theme? The Avengers and Fantastic Four are right there if having to think about how minorities are treated in society makes you uncomfortable.
    The core theme is the X-Gene, isn't it? And the point many are trying to make is the metaphor isn't enough to deal with how minorities are treated.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoRogue View Post
    The superhero genre is a power fantasy and a form of escapism yes, but not if you literally include the same real life events in the books; which is my point. I don't disagree with a middle ground but you kept asking what the purpose of the metaphor was and liked I've kept trying to tell you, it's to explore forms of discrimination that can be more extreme without alienating fans.

    I'd argue you alienate more people by going too close to real world examples because it brings in controversy and it's not the best medium to explore those themes, again pretty people with powers soap opera. Sort of like how politics is so polarized right now, instead of there being much middle ground.

    As for Blank Panther, it works because it's a solo character movie focused on that angle, it's not going to work as well with a cosmopolitan team with all sorts of backgrounds and ethnicities.

    The X-Men have changed, what do you think Krakoa is? As for Emma being a victim of racism no, but a victim of prejudice and discrimination because she's part of a minority group yes. Being from wealth and fortune doesn't exclude you from being a minority, a bit it does circumvent a lack of power and resources, as lots of Hollywood celebrities show that.

    If you are saying there should be more minorities in the X-Men in more prominent roles, highly agree. That they should address discrimination in more complicated and direct forms? That is fine but writers need to be weary and delicate with it. But that the metaphor is purposeless and outdated in today's world? Hard disagree.
    Middle ground is often a fallacy when it comes to racism. Politics are divisive because bigots keep spouting bigotry.

    I know you're saying being too real will alienate people, but while that is true to some extent, it may also attract people who've been alienated from media ignoring the reality they face everyday. Including that doesn't preclude escapism, but can actually be part of it. I'm quite aware of the purpose of the metaphor, I just don't think it works as well anymore. I think in some ways it just reinforces a status quo by opposing hatred at a basic level yet never going deep enough due to being to afraid to scare away audiences or readers. I think it's possible for a whole team of diverse ethnicities to deal with these kinds of subjects. It may be harder, but not impossible. I think it's worth the risk if it helps to show wider audiences what prejudice is really like.

    I know X-Men brought in Krakoa, but that's not the change I'm talking about.

    I do agree minority characters should have more prominence in the MCU X-Men. They can't appropriate the civil rights struggle and then mostly focus on White X-Men.

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Is it its core theme, though? Each X-men writer defines what the X-men themes are.

    Although Claremont dived into the minority metaphor, he also wrote many other stories that had nothing to do with that. It was his versatility I liked and his capacity to go from drama to levity and surprise me.
    There's a huge dollop of inter-generational strife in X-Men. Lee and Kirby created the X-Men while the whole Summer Of Love thing was in full swing, and it makes sense if we're talking about young people who are beatniks, hippies, punks, ravers or whatever sub-culture who are rebelling against their parents who just don't understand them. Mutants represent the fear that we will be supplanted and replaced by our own children, who have become like strangers to us as their values diverge from that our our own generation - It's no coincidence that Bowie sings "got to make way for the homo superior" in Oh You Pretty Things.

    That said, I think minority issues are massively encoded in generational strife, as each successive generation pushes back the bounds of acceptability set by the previous.

  13. #73
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    The core theme is "Protecting a world that hates and fears them".

    Where the minority metaphor does play a part in that theme...especially regarding to being hated and feared, the main point of the X-Men is to be Heroes.

    An astute writer can certainly introduce minority/diversity themes with respect to our modern day sensibilities without it being ALL about those themes, while focusing on the "Save the World/Galaxy Adventure" aspect that we know and love.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Planet Arakko, FOREVER!!!

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    Why are people always trying to divorce the X-Men from its core theme? The Avengers and Fantastic Four are right there if having to think about how minorities are treated in society makes you uncomfortable.
    I don't think this is overly true, with my experience. those that are trying to divorce xmen from their core theme are doing it, before MCU actually officially does it. I think this is more of a writing on the wall , that this will happen. a lot of us are aware MCU because of their light hearted rule would struggle very hard to adapt a lot of these xmen themes as they should. it is something some of us xmen fans have proven and explained many times, so it feels like it is far better now to say, these themes were never necessary before it becomes official in the MCU.

    When it comes to anyone trying to divorce these themes in my past discussion with them, a lot of the times they all turn out to be massive MCU fans, who will be the first to also admit, they dont know much about the X-MEN or ever read the comics, but it is important to them that X-MEN is still in the MCU, for reason I keep asking myself, why was it ever important that X-Men is in the MCU, since X-MEN also works far much better in its own world.

    The 90s cartoon never acted as if it was part of the larger marvel universe and it dealt so deeply with this theme, maybe the best as we have ever seen it done in an X-MEN live action. I wish the movies also continued this way in spite of who owned the film IPs. MCU just needs to create a new universe for X-Men on Hulu or Disney needs to send it to one of their other studios, that is not too tied down by the Disney regulations. where we at now at a point, some now need to divorce X-MEN from their themes to justify light hearted action driven comedic X-men.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoRogue View Post
    The superhero genre is a power fantasy and a form of escapism yes, but not if you literally include the same real life events in the books; which is my point. I don't disagree with a middle ground but you kept asking what the purpose of the metaphor was and liked I've kept trying to tell you, it's to explore forms of discrimination that can be more extreme without alienating fans.

    I'd argue you alienate more people by going too close to real world examples because it brings in controversy and it's not the best medium to explore those themes, again pretty people with powers soap opera. Sort of like how politics is so polarized right now, instead of there being much middle ground.

    As for Blank Panther, it works because it's a solo character movie focused on that angle, it's not going to work as well with a cosmopolitan team with all sorts of backgrounds and ethnicities.

    The X-Men have changed, what do you think Krakoa is? As for Emma being a victim of racism no, but a victim of prejudice and discrimination because she's part of a minority group yes. Being white and wealthy does not exclude you from being a minority, a bit it does carry privileges as well, as lots of Hollywood celebrities can show.

    If you are saying there should be more minorities in the X-Men in more prominent roles, highly agree. That they should address discrimination in more complicated and direct forms? That is fine but writers need to be weary and delicate with it. But that the metaphor is purposeless and outdated in today's world? Hard disagree.
    Bold truth on some parts.

    The X-MEN are still escapes but so are other comic book characters like Black Panther, I mean there are no such countries as Wakanda's. they are all fiction. However the escapism of X-MEN is still grounded in far more realism than a lot of these other series, because X-MEN has cut so deeply on this themes. X1 or X-MEN Evolution season 3 has far less escapism of this themes that the Black Panther movie because this theme in the BP movie did not get much focus.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Is it its core theme, though? Each X-men writer defines what the X-men themes are.

    Although Claremont dived into the minority metaphor, he also wrote many other stories that had nothing to do with that. It was his versatility I liked and his capacity to go from drama to levity and surprise me.
    Grant Morrison and Joss Whedon did just as good of a job as CC and also Chuck Austen, when I look back now was not as terrible as I remember but again, the bar seems very low now so Austen comes off looking good with over the top hot mess stories like She Lies wiwthin the Angel , Holy War and Draco, despite the one star amazon ratings .
    Last edited by Castle; 05-17-2021 at 08:35 AM.

  15. #75
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    Master of Sound did a poll a few years ago on the CBR community's favorite X-Men. Here are links to the results: Favorite Male X-Men and Favorite Female X-Men.

    All of the top-10 male X-men are white. (Nightcrawler is of European descent although he obviously has blue-black fur). And 8 of the top-10 X-Women are white (Storm, Jubilee).

    The X-Men franchise that we know and love consists of mostly beautiful, sexy white people and their soap operas (that play out as they live wealthy lives in luxurious, high-tech bases most of the time).

    With this context in mind, I would not want or trust Hollywood to get heavy-handed with the minority metaphor if for no other reason than Hollywood will end up making mistakes (or at least doing things I don't like) if they try to do it.

    Personally, I would like to see the most iconic and popular X-Men in my X-Men movies (because those characters tend to be my favorites as well), and I don't want them race-swapped. Others' mileage may vary.

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