Should the MCU X-men lean heavily into the minority metophor?

[Vishop]

I was just responding to a comment saying the Avengers are monotonous, which I disagree with because they don't have one big repeating storyline like the mutant persecution complex

They actually are. People only notice them when they are involved in events where they are up against the big bad antagonist characters (most of them aren't even their antagonists) are responsible for alien invasions. King in Black, Uncanny Avengers, Infinity Gauntlet etc

[CosmiComic]

They actually are. People only notice them when they are involved in events where they are up against the big bad antagonist characters (most of them aren't even their antagonists) are responsible for alien invasions. King in Black, Uncanny Avengers, Infinity Gauntlet etc

Sorry, but I don't quite understand

[Dante Milton]

Their personalities, character development, individual plotlines, etc. I don't see how you can reduce all of these characters to just one thing

I'm not saying that the characters are all reduced to one thing, I'm saying all the things you just listed are informed by this one thing, and removing that would fundamentally change the characters.

Yeah, the metaphor definitely shouldn't replace real representation. I just don't see any point in continuing a metaphor when real representation is more prominent now

2. I'm not saying that the Mutant Metaphor wasn't important in the 60s and 80s and even in the 90s. At that time it wouldn't be possible to publish stories of that kind with real world issues and minorities.

I'm saying that the mutant metaphor is no longer useful, because any story told with that metaphor would be much better and much more relevant if gay people were talking about gay issues in a truthful manner. From now on the mutant metaphor will always be a non sensical step down from what we need.

I don't think I agree with that. It's true that in independent publishing, webcomics, and fan works (and to an extent other forms of independent media) it is easier to make stories that talk about real world minorities and their experiences of marginalization and oppression. However, in big two publishing and media produced by large corporations, it is still very much a fight to be allowed to tell these stories (unless they can sanitize them and make them profitable). Marvel and Disney are still much more likely to support a product that deals with these issues metaphorically rather than directly. And while the use of metaphor might make a story less directly relatable, it can still be meaningful to some people, which is better than nothing, imo.

[CosmiComic]

I'm not saying that the characters are all reduced to one thing, I'm saying all the things you just listed are informed by this one thing, and removing that would fundamentally change the characters.

I see what you mean, but characters can evolve, can't they? And new characters can be defined by other things

I don't think I agree with that. It's true that in independent publishing, webcomics, and fan works (and to an extent other forms of independent media) it is easier to make stories that talk about real world minorities and their experiences of marginalization and oppression. However, in big two publishing and media produced by large corporations, it is still very much a fight to be allowed to tell these stories (unless they can sanitize them and make them profitable). Marvel and Disney are still much more likely to support a product that deals with these issues metaphorically rather than directly. And while the use of metaphor might make a story less directly relatable, it can still be meaningful to some people, which is better than nothing, imo.

Then the big 2 should make more effort instead of defaulting to safer, comfier metaphors. I realize it has meaning to many people, but it might have the unintended effect of stalling progress

[Cane_danko]

I don't disagree with any of those statements, but you aren't talking about "the mutant metaphor". You are talking about actual representation and real sovial themes, rather than metaphors through the x-gene.

Yeah. That’s true. In which case, i will say i do think that the mutant theme does and should represent minorities and outsiders of society who are trying to fight in a world that mostly rejects them. I’ve always loved that about the xmen and even though the movies were a poor substitute for the comics i liked that they kept that theme prevalent.

[Alpha]

I don't think I agree with that. It's true that in independent publishing, webcomics, and fan works (and to an extent other forms of independent media) it is easier to make stories that talk about real world minorities and their experiences of marginalization and oppression. However, in big two publishing and media produced by large corporations, it is still very much a fight to be allowed to tell these stories (unless they can sanitize them and make them profitable). Marvel and Disney are still much more likely to support a product that deals with these issues metaphorically rather than directly. And while the use of metaphor might make a story less directly relatable, it can still be meaningful to some people, which is better than nothing, imo.

And what kind of story are you proposing the X-men do then? How would they talk about discrimination in a meaningful way eith a metaphor? Because none of thr issues of today that I can think of can be explored in a significant manner with the mutant metaphor.

[jwatson]

And what kind of story are you proposing the X-men do then? How would they talk about discrimination in a meaningful way eith a metaphor? Because none of thr issues of today that I can think of can be explored in a significant manner with the mutant metaphor.

I can think of a good example.

For instance if the world fears mutants and mutants are saying we are being "discriminated against. there are laws being created that target us." and the government pulls out one mutant who says "these laws are not harmful to mutants specifically and there is nothing to see here." and the people in the MCU latch on to that and ignore all the other mutants. IMO that matches exactly to the republican party waltzing out Tim Scott to say there is no institutional racism while ignoring the voices of other black people who are saying their is, despite their voices outweighing the one.

[CosmiComic]

I can think of a good example.

For instance if the world fears mutants and mutants are saying we are being "discriminated against. there are laws being created that target us." and the government pulls out one mutant who says "these laws are not harmful to mutants specifically and there is nothing to see here." and the people in the MCU latch on to that and ignore all the other mutants. IMO that matches exactly to the republican party waltzing out Tim Scott to say there is no institutional racism while ignoring the voices of other black people who are saying their is, despite their voices outweighing the one.

They could just do that with actual African-Americans

[Dante Milton]

And what kind of story are you proposing the X-men do then? How would they talk about discrimination in a meaningful way eith a metaphor? Because none of thr issues of today that I can think of can be explored in a significant manner with the mutant metaphor.

I think there are plenty of X-Men stories they could adapt that still feel meaningful. I suspect they will do a riff on God Loves, Man Kills with some Morrison and Whedon mixed in. I don't have much confidence that DisMarvel will do it well, and I don't actually expect the MCU X-Men movies to be good or meaningful. Like most of their other products, I expect something fairly entertaining but ultimately forgettable.

[jwatson]

They could just do that with actual African-Americans

They could but it's x-men not Amistad. As long as there is a diverse cast it works. It seems some want complete escapism from it. The metaphor should be as loose or as strong as the story one wants to tell requires.

Also not everyone is going to get that same message but a black person who felt that way might and the story was purely talking about mutants so it really does seem to come down to a comfort level on if it is used or not. People are going to gleam what they want it doesn't need to be specific.

I may have asked before but are you from another country. I only ask because not many under 40 use the term African american when in america so it actually helps shape where you may be coming from because i am also understanding geographical location also has a lot to do with how people feel about the x-men as a metaphor and how that is used or not used.

[Devaishwarya]

Yeah, the metaphor definitely shouldn't replace real representation. I just don't see any point in continuing a metaphor when real representation is more prominent now

Real representation across the many different media is prominent now, but...that does not mean it's conducive to replace the metaphor as an important literary device (in and out of the X-Men), whether in comic books or movies.

Hypothetically, let's say the X-Men movie is going for Real Representation. Which one do they (the writers) focus on to drive their story? Race? Sexual Identity? Gender Identity? All three?
If they go with All...which is a possibility as X-Men now is the most diverse it's been in decades...how do they give weight and depth and gravitas to each of those individual categories without disappointing or neglecting one or more people belonging to the various sub-categories of each, in the story? Because Real Representation should mean representation of ALL. (Otherwise...twitter-verse backlash)

All the while maintaining the kick-ass visual adventure-dramatic extravaganza that we and the general viewership and the Accountants would expect...all in the space of 2hours 30mins (which is a long-ass movie, even after editing)

I'm not saying some visionary genius writer can't create such a movie with the perfect balance of those elements but that is a difficult task where they run the risk of shortchanging one for the other and end up doing full justice to neither resulting in an overall mediocre movie. As we've seen time and time again...in the comics and in movies.

All that is to say...when you have such a vast array of interconnected elements regarding Diversity and Representation, rather than give each their 10 min focus (which would never ever be enough) it might be best and easier to use an expanded metaphor(s) to bring those points across, clearly and relevantly throughout the movie.

[davetvs]

And what kind of story are you proposing the X-men do then? How would they talk about discrimination in a meaningful way eith a metaphor? Because none of thr issues of today that I can think of can be explored in a significant manner with the mutant metaphor.

Are you sure? Forced sterilizations, ethnic cleansing, immigration, voting rights, police brutality, stereotypical media representation, the debate over whether or not transgender people should compete against cis-gendered people in sports (or use the same bathrooms as cis people), etc. the list goes on and on. X-Men could touch on any of these real world topics using mutants as the stand in for the groups they are happening to in the real world.

[Alpha]

Forced sterilizations, ethnic cleansing

Only third world countries have those things anymore. There is no debate about it, nothing to be learned and it doesn't speak to the experience of those watching the movies.

immigration

Mutants aren't immigrants.

voting rights

Everyone in the Western World is allowed to vote unless they went to prison (which isn't a racial issue). The issues we have with voting are zoning out of certain communities and names. Neither of these aspects apply to mutants since there aren't "mutant neighborhoods" and mutant communities don't have unique names (since mutants are born to homo sapiens before anyone ever knows that they are mutants).

Police brutality

Any cop that shoots a gun at a mutant is an idiot since there's a good chance that he is indestructible and can make the cop's head explode. Also, there's a great reason why police should be more agressive with mutants than normal people when they are arresting them.

stereotypical media representation

That would be hilarious. There is no serious way to explore the lack of good roles for mutants in Hollywood.

the debate over whether or not transgender people should compete against cis-gendered people in sports

That debate is about an inherent trait, but the defense of trans athletes is about how the hormones they take to become their real selves actually weaken the body, you can't do this with mutants. Mutants in sports is like NBA players playing against a group of 5 year olds. It has nothing to do with how transgender issues function.

(or use the same bathrooms as cis people)

It's not really a story for a super hero movie. I guess it can work though. The same way it would for african americans in the 50s.

[CosmiComic]

They could but it's x-men not Amistad. As long as there is a diverse cast it works. It seems some want complete escapism from it. The metaphor should be as loose or as strong as the story one wants to tell requires.

Also not everyone is going to get that same message but a black person who felt that way might and the story was purely talking about mutants so it really does seem to come down to a comfort level on if it is used or not. People are going to gleam what they want it doesn't need to be specific.

I may have asked before but are you from another country. I only ask because not many under 40 use the term African american when in america so it actually helps shape where you may be coming from because i am also understanding geographical location also has a lot to do with how people feel about the x-men as a metaphor and how that is used or not used.

I'm from North America. I was just trying to be exact.

Anyway, non-Black people may not exactly understand what Black people go through, but they'll never know anything if they don't experience it. I feel these metaphors just obscure the reality of what PoC go through everyday. X-Men aren't Amistad, but that's not really an excuse IMO. Falcon and Winter Soldier isn't Amistad either but it at least approached the topic. It didn't go in depth but it at least showed in some way what Black Americans deal with. I don't think saying some won't understand at all what others go through won't really help

[CosmiComic]

Real representation across the many different media is prominent now, but...that does not mean it's conducive to replace the metaphor as an important literary device (in and out of the X-Men), whether in comic books or movies.

Hypothetically, let's say the X-Men movie is going for Real Representation. Which one do they (the writers) focus on to drive their story? Race? Sexual Identity? Gender Identity? All three?
If they go with All...which is a possibility as X-Men now is the most diverse it's been in decades...how do they give weight and depth and gravitas to each of those individual categories without disappointing or neglecting one or more people belonging to the various sub-categories of each, in the story? Because Real Representation should mean representation of ALL. (Otherwise...twitter-verse backlash)

All the while maintaining the kick-ass visual adventure-dramatic extravaganza that we and the general viewership and the Accountants would expect...all in the space of 2hours 30mins (which is a long-ass movie, even after editing)

I'm not saying some visionary genius writer can't create such a movie with the perfect balance of those elements but that is a difficult task where they run the risk of shortchanging one for the other and end up doing full justice to neither resulting in an overall mediocre movie. As we've seen time and time again...in the comics and in movies.

All that is to say...when you have such a vast array of interconnected elements regarding Diversity and Representation, rather than give each their 10 min focus (which would never ever be enough) it might be best and easier to use an expanded metaphor(s) to bring those points across, clearly and relevantly throughout the movie.

I'm not saying they have to touch every single issue. If they even deal with only one or two, it's still more real than some metaphor. Dealing with the experience of Black Americans, for instance, doesn't exclude the experience of Native Americans, Asian Americans or any other group. That experience is still more similar to the others than a fictional one. And let's not use Twitter as an excuse to do nothing.