Should the MCU X-men lean heavily into the minority metophor?

[CosmiComic]

But what does that have to do with the x-men being super powered humans of all races and nationalities being feared and hated for being born different? It creates a universal unity in caring about what happens to those characters. How is that impeding on anyone else message if people choose to attach real world issues to it in their interpretation?

With the mutant metaphor if done right your able to strip away all the whataboutisms or bias and get to the basic problem of people hate because something is different and i personally question the idea that there is a problem there. Why wouldn't anyone want to talk about fear and hate on the basis of not being the same despite race, etc, especially when it's the message the other tries to portray so much. "it wasn't because they were that." Then what was it.

The problem is it's not actual representation. Although I'm not quite sure about your second paragraph

[CosmiComic]

The world in which they "breathe" and "exist" is fictional...but for many readers throughout the decades the X-Men and their struggles and the prejudice they experienced and are still experiencing as mutants, in this era, are very real.

That's true of all fictional universes, isn't it?

[Kingdom X]

What false equivalency? Of course BP wouldn't tackle other issues. In the same way, not every X-Men movie or show has to either. It just depends on which x-men are in the specific project. If an X-Men project tackles Black issues, does that preclude the next one dealing with other issues? Where did this zero sum diversity idea even come from?

And when did anyone ask for a Ted Talk? Do other shows and movies dealing with prejudice need to become PSAs? No, of course not. It's not as hard as some are necessarily making it out to be.

I just explained that it's a false equivalency because Black Panther is a "black" franchise and the X-Men isn't. Also why should someone have to wait years between movies so that their issue gets picked? Then what about the people who all of a sudden liked the X-Men when it solely focused on racial issues? Do they not get to see that in the sequel? What if there are only three to four movies? There's no way you can give every marginalized group a movie. It's not as a clean cut as you're making it seem. Other movies dealing with prejudice don't also have to be huge blockbusters that set up sequels and spin-offs, and tie into an interconnected universe.

I'm a very active advocate for seeing representation on the screen, but I truly don't think that people should be relying on superhero movies to learn about prejudice. There are far better places and you have to ask yourself who is actually benefitting from the prejudice being depicted on screen. I've linked an article about depictions of Black trauma on screen that touches upon this: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-black-tv-film.

You keep on saying that it's better to see these issues depicted in the most realistic way possible but I don't need to see Iceman get called a homophobic slur or see Bishop get stopped and frisked by the police because I've lived those things. It's one thing for me to put on a movie designed to tackle those issues vs. walking into a superhero movie and being re-traumatized, so that the lowest common denominator can say that they learned something about bigotry while watching a Marvel movie.

[ChronoRogue]

I just explained that it's a false equivalency because Black Panther is a "black" franchise and the X-Men isn't. Also why should someone have to wait years between movies so that their issue gets picked? Then what about the people who all of a sudden liked the X-Men when it solely focused on racial issues? Do they not get to see that in the sequel? What if there are only three to four movies? There's no way you can give every marginalized group a movie. It's not as a clean cut as you're making it seem. Other movies dealing with prejudice don't also have to be huge blockbusters that set up sequels and spin-offs, and tie into an interconnected universe.

I'm a very active advocate for seeing representation on the screen, but I truly don't think that people should be relying on superhero movies to learn about prejudice. There are far better places and you have to ask yourself who is actually benefitting from the prejudice being depicted on screen. I've linked an article about depictions of Black trauma on screen that touches upon this: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-black-tv-film.

You keep on saying that it's better to see these issues depicted in the most realistic way possible but I don't need to see Iceman get called a homophobic slur or see Bishop get stopped and frisked by the police because I've lived those things. It's one thing for me to put on a movie designed to tackle those issues vs. walking into a superhero movie and being re-traumatized, so that the lowest common denominator can say that they learned something about bigotry while watching a Marvel movie.

Exactly. We're talking about a movie franchise that is already going to struggle with juggling and establishing a huge amount of potential heroes, villains, and world-building without getting into the delicate plots like real life racism.

If this was the comics or even a Disney Plus show it'd be better, because they have more time. That's not the case in a film. Or if we ever get Storm, Bishop or Psylocke (Kwannon) film those could be avenues someone might want to explore regarding intersectional identity and discrimination but the main films should utilize the metaphor and be all-inclusive.

[CosmiComic]

I just explained that it's a false equivalency because Black Panther is a "black" franchise and the X-Men isn't. Also why should someone have to wait years between movies so that their issue gets picked? Then what about the people who all of a sudden liked the X-Men when it solely focused on racial issues? Do they not get to see that in the sequel? What if there are only three to four movies? There's no way you can give every marginalized group a movie. It's not as a clean cut as you're making it seem. Other movies dealing with prejudice don't also have to be huge blockbusters that set up sequels and spin-offs, and tie into an interconnected universe.

I'm a very active advocate for seeing representation on the screen, but I truly don't think that people should be relying on superhero movies to learn about prejudice. There are far better places and you have to ask yourself who is actually benefitting from the prejudice being depicted on screen. I've linked an article about depictions of Black trauma on screen that touches upon this: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-black-tv-film.

You keep on saying that it's better to see these issues depicted in the most realistic way possible but I don't need to see Iceman get called a homophobic slur or see Bishop get stopped and frisked by the police because I've lived those things. It's one thing for me to put on a movie designed to tackle those issues vs. walking into a superhero movie and being re-traumatized, so that the lowest common denominator can say that they learned something about bigotry while watching a Marvel movie.

I still don't get why the solution is to not approach these topics at all if not every single one can't be.

I appreciate you don't want to see these things in screen. But that article you linked, while informative, isn't necessarily what I'm talking about. I'm not interested in performative movies to make White audiences feel better. Just the opposite, in fact. I just don't think not involving anything of the minority experience at all works either. I want shows and movies dealing with prejudice to be as appropriate and non-problematic as possible

[Devaishwarya]

Excellent points, KingdomX.

If one is truly interested in seeing movies that deal with racial, gender, sexuality prejudices in our real everyday world (no powers, no heroes, no mutants) then there are hundreds of excellent movies to see.

The fact that X-Men is a fictional construct already pre-supposes on a basic level that the themes expressed within are allegorical...because it's not a true-to-life depiction of the/our real world in which we live. And yet still we are able to identify and relate to those themes...what's it like to be Other. To be profiled. To be hated. To be robbed of our very basic right to exist.

It doesn't matter if the message is allegorical or realistic once the message is received by the viewer(s) for which it is intended.

[Kingdom X]

Excellent points, KingdomX.

Why thank you

I still don't get why the solution is to not approach these topics at all if not every single one can't be.

I appreciate you don't want to see these things in screen. But that article you linked, while informative, isn't necessarily what I'm talking about. I'm not interested in performative movies to make White audiences feel better. Just the opposite, in fact. I just don't think not involving anything of the minority experience at all works either. I want shows and movies dealing with prejudice to be as appropriate and non-problematic as possible

Ok then please describe to me how you would organically include depictions of real world bigotry within an X-Men movie that has to appeal to wide audiences, that somehow discusses these issues, that doesn't retraumatize minorities, and doesn't seem performative.

I've never said don't involve anything of the minority experience. Showing a same-sex X-couple being happy is the minority experience. Showing Storm thriving and kicking ass with black girl magic is the minority experience. The minority experience isn't just talking about discrimination it's about being proud of who you are and doing the damn thing regardless of what the world thinks of you.

In fact, many times in this discussion I've offered a middle ground that would satisfy most people. Despite that you consistently advocate for removing a defining factor of the franchise and replacing it with in-depth discussions about bigotry, and I'm just asking you to think about who really benefits from that at the end of the day.

[davetvs]

Only third world countries have those things anymore. There is no debate about it, nothing to be learned and it doesn't speak to the experience of those watching the movies.


Mutants aren't immigrants.


Everyone in the Western World is allowed to vote unless they went to prison (which isn't a racial issue). The issues we have with voting are zoning out of certain communities and names. Neither of these aspects apply to mutants since there aren't "mutant neighborhoods" and mutant communities don't have unique names (since mutants are born to homo sapiens before anyone ever knows that they are mutants).


Any cop that shoots a gun at a mutant is an idiot since there's a good chance that he is indestructible and can make the cop's head explode. Also, there's a great reason why police should be more agressive with mutants than normal people when they are arresting them.


That would be hilarious. There is no serious way to explore the lack of good roles for mutants in Hollywood.


That debate is about an inherent trait, but the defense of trans athletes is about how the hormones they take to become their real selves actually weaken the body, you can't do this with mutants. Mutants in sports is like NBA players playing against a group of 5 year olds. It has nothing to do with how transgender issues function.



It's not really a story for a super hero movie. I guess it can work though. The same way it would for african americans in the 50s.

No offense intended, but I'm jumping off here. Forced sterilizations are happening in ICE centers, in the US...you should do the research before trying to invalidate the minority metaphor as outdated when you aren't even aware of what's happening to minorities under your nose.

[CosmiComic]

Why thank you



Ok then please describe to me how you would organically include depictions of real world bigotry within an X-Men movie that has to appeal to wide audiences, that somehow discusses these issues, that doesn't retraumatize minorities, and doesn't seem performative.

I've never said don't involve anything of the minority experience. Showing a same-sex X-couple being happy is the minority experience. Showing Storm thriving and kicking ass with black girl magic is the minority experience. The minority experience isn't just talking about discrimination it's about being proud of who you are and doing the damn thing regardless of what the world thinks of you.

In fact, many times in this discussion I've offered a middle ground that would satisfy most people. Despite that you consistently advocate for removing a defining factor of the franchise and replacing it with in-depth discussions about bigotry, and I'm just asking you to think about who really benefits from that at the end of the day.

I just don't think every attempt at addressing prejudice in movies re-traumatizes minorities facing such prejudice. I think that's too reductive.

I don't know exactly what would be a better option. It's not really my place to necessarily say how other minorities can address prejudice against them in fiction. It's up to every group to have at least some involvement in that

[CosmiComic]

No offense intended, but I'm jumping off here. Forced sterilizations are happening in ICE centers, in the US...you should do the research before trying to invalidate the minority metaphor as outdated when you aren't even aware of what's happening to minorities under your nose.

Yeah, I don't see how anyone could've missed that. These kinds of abuses unfortunately continue to this day

[Kingdom X]

I just don't think every attempt at addressing prejudice in movies re-traumatizes minorities facing such prejudice. I think that's too reductive.

I don't know exactly what would be a better option. It's not really my place to necessarily say how other minorities can address prejudice against them in fiction. It's up to every group to have at least some involvement in that

But like I said people know what they're signing up for when they are watching Get Out or Selma. Heck, Get Out is one of my favorite movies, but those movies can be heavy as hell because of the subject matter. Like ChronoRogue mentioned it's also different if you have an entire show or comic book series to take the time to walk through those issues.

I'm also curious about your thoughts on my point about the minority experience. It's really not all pain and suffering.

[CosmiComic]

But like I said people know what they're signing up for when they are watching Get Out or Selma. Heck, Get Out is one of my favorite movies, but those movies can be heavy as hell because of the subject matter. Like ChronoRogue mentioned it's also different if you have an entire show or comic book series to take the time to walk through those issues.

I'm also curious about your thoughts on my point about the minority experience. It's really not all pain and suffering.

The minority experience should be told in total. It shouldn't reduced just to pain and suffering.

I don't think it necessarily has to be heavy as Get Out. Black Panther dealt with anti-Black racism to some extent but not as much as Selma or Get Out

[Kingdom X]

The minority experience should be told in total. It shouldn't reduced just to pain and suffering.

I don't think it necessarily has to be heavy as Get Out. Black Panther dealt with anti-Black racism to some extent but not as much as Selma or Get Out

Black Panther dealt with the affects of colonialism as a concept, but nothing that specific. Many (black) people enjoyed Black Panther because of its depiction of Afro-futurism and that it wasn't a black movie just about racism.

[CosmiComic]

Black Panther dealt with the affects of colonialism as a concept, but nothing that specific. Many (black) people enjoyed Black Panther because of its depiction of Afro-futurism and that it wasn't a black movie just about racism.

Exactly. It wasn't just about that. It dealt with it in a reasonable manner. It wasn't perfect, but at least it acknowledged the issue and involved it into the plot without being extreme. Not every PoC hero should have to deal with prejudice, of course. But they can do it if they try

[Killerbee911]

So I thought of another way put it, If the minority metaphor is what makes X-men special what happens to the franchise when other things start to cover the topic and be more direct about it. I watch Motherland Fort Salem on Freeform it is about Witches who US government conscripted to fight their enemies to make this explanation short Witch Army=X-men, Witch Terrorist= The Brotherhood, Ancient Witch Enemies= Purifiers. Another thing I am interested in "Black" which is a superhero property in a world where only Black People got powers, The concept is quite literally what if the X-men was Black and that is being made in movie. Then there is Bitter Root about a Black Family of monster hunters who fight against people being turned into monster literally by Racism and Hate being made into movie. You have Legacies on CW where supernatural students go to school in a world that would hate and fear them if they knew they were around.

And I can keep adding stuff from Darkest Mind to My Hero Academia to Harry Potter, when X-men first started yeah the minority metaphor was a good thing but X-men is not the only product on the block they are tons of supernatural and superhero properties that touch on the same themes. The advantage the X-men has that is more popular than any of these other properties so when comes out regardless of it is doing the same thing people will respect it but Heroes, Alphas, Tomorrow People, Legacies, The Gifted, The 4400, Misfits, Starcrossed and pretty much large chunk of YA properties how much impact will you have when people have seen it before and often. A part of diminishing impact of X-men franchise is because everybody else is also doing and people have seen people with superpowers being hated and feared. X-men is not going to do the subject better than Watchmen or Love Craft country and X-men has fundamental flaws in its storytelling that look stupid, Rogue and Chamber shouldn't be "cured"? A person who can explode a city block shouldn't be register? Hulk who destroy stuff, Wanda who destroy stuff, Iron Man and Banner created Ultron are loved but X-men are going to be hated? I am not saying get rid of the minority metaphor it is part of the dna of the franchise now but going heavy into especially in the MCU is probably not a good idea.

You have stuff like Watchmen and Lovecraft country directly addressing stuff, Falcon and Winter Solider directly addressing stuff, Do we really need the overt stuff Havok telling us why he doesn't want to be called mutant or Kitty explaining how mutie is just like the n-word