Should the MCU X-men lean heavily into the minority metophor?

[Devaishwarya]

For many of us fans...these characters are "real people". So their plight is real. So...

Reading a book or watching a documentary or movie that highlights real world global injustices might actually give the reader/viewer a greater understanding and appreciation for what the X-Men is actually about and what they deal with and stand for.

[Kingdom X]

I thought your point was you didn't want to see anything that extreme. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Anyway, I struggle to think of any such movie, but I assume it's because Hollywood is still too afraid to deal with that kind of subject matter. Possibly because it's still a very White industry.

While I made the point about black trauma I also made it clear that there is obviously a place and time for hard hitting depictions of social issues. I watched Judas and Black Messiah knowing damn well my blood would probably be boiling at the end because I wanted to learn more about the Black Panther party. There's also a clear line between informative and exploitative depictions of racism.

Also this has probably gotten misconstrued as this conversation has persisted, but I'm fine with the MCU X-Men touching upon social issues. However if you fully delete the metaphor and then fully REPLACE it with real world discrimination, then the movie is going to be ABOUT discrimination (not that lil 10 minute lip service about colonialism that Black Panther had). That's where my hesitation lies because:

A) That sounds like a lot to balance with a full cast of 5-7 protagonists of different backgrounds and origins that all need character arcs, a compelling villain, etc.
B) You can't just switch between fun superpowered action movie and serious depictions of real world discrimination without tonal issues.
C) Again I seriously question people who need an X-Men movie to teach them anything more than a surface level definition of discrimination.

Also yes Hollywood is a very white industry. Which is why I've been advocating for a diverse team this whole discussion. And hey if some expert filmaker is able to balance all of that and make a movie that is deep, fun, and not exploitative then power to them.

[Alpha]

Can you please enlighten me on the “real stuff” you’re referring to? Also why is an X-Men movie the best place to tackle said real stuff?

I agree that it's not a good place to tackle real stuff, for the most part. You are the ones that want the Mutant Metaphor to rtalk about the african american experience and the gay experience. What's the point of making a film about racism and only talk about homophobic slurs? Homophobes don't actually mind hearing homophobic slurs in movies, so it does nothing to change them.

[Alpha]

And not to bash on X-men 2, but none of the things it ralked about are relevant to the world of today. The most important examples of racism and homophobia in modern western society doesn't ressmble the Holocaust whatsoever. It's very easy to talk about how awful ww2 was, it's much harder to talk about the african american community of today. And that's what Black Panther talked about in the most crucial scenes. I'm not going to deny that the giant climatic battle sequences were totally meaningless. But the main argument of the movie was about the necessity of preserving the rare prospiety of a country like Wakanda (and all the successful black celebrities of today) vs the necessity of those that made it to the top to support the brothers and sisters that were left behind or taken away.

[CosmiComic]

While I made the point about black trauma I also made it clear that there is obviously a place and time for hard hitting depictions of social issues. I watched Judas and Black Messiah knowing damn well my blood would probably be boiling at the end because I wanted to learn more about the Black Panther party. There's also a clear line between informative and exploitative depictions of racism.

Also this has probably gotten misconstrued as this conversation has persisted, but I'm fine with the MCU X-Men touching upon social issues. However if you fully delete the metaphor and then fully REPLACE it with real world discrimination, then the movie is going to be ABOUT discrimination (not that lil 10 minute lip service about colonialism that Black Panther had). That's where my hesitation lies because:

A) That sounds like a lot to balance with a full cast of 5-7 protagonists of different backgrounds and origins that all need character arcs, a compelling villain, etc.
B) You can't just switch between fun superpowered action movie and serious depictions of real world discrimination without tonal issues.
C) Again I seriously question people who need an X-Men movie to teach them anything more than a surface level definition of discrimination.

Also yes Hollywood is a very white industry. Which is why I've been advocating for a diverse team this whole discussion. And hey if some expert filmaker is able to balance all of that and make a movie that is deep, fun, and not exploitative then power to them.

Ok, I think I'm getting a clearer picture on what you're saying.

As to your points, we don't know how many people will be on a team. It may be difficult to balance it out, but not necessarily impossible. Maybe the villains are motivated by racism. Maybe the heroes are motivate against it. Or maybe it's a plot not totally based on prejudice, and the discussions of racism serve to flesh out the characters and their world. I also don't think it's impossible to switch between superhero action and real life issues. For some of us, the entertainment is seeing the heroes deal with these issues, but in a non-exploitative manner. And it's not all about teaching people about discrimination, but also about helping minorities to tell about their experiences with discrimination. But if anyone wants to keep the mutant metaphor, then in a way they are asking for the X-Men to teach about discrimination.

[Zelena]

IMO, the minority metaphor is the 3rd-most important thing about the X-franchise with superheroics being 4th, so yes the metaphor is more important than being the "Mutant Avengers". But, I think for the vast majority of fans, we love the X-men first and foremost because (1) they're beautiful, sexy people who have (2) rich character arcs and relationships with each other dating back to the Claremont days.

The fans use the X-men to express their opinions. Me neither the minority metaphor didn’t matter really… It was sometimes a plot device and it was absolutely not what I liked in the X-men: they were brave, funny, sympathetic and not miserable and whining about their life. I probably wouldn’t have read a comic featuring a Morlock or two. Or maybe not: after all, I read the Swamp thing. It was a good comic, well written and well drawn.

It is always interesting to learn a thing or two about stuff, life… but it is absolutely not the reason why I open a comic and start reading… and particularly when it’s science-fiction.

[Jack The Tripper]

I don’t think the minority metaphor should be as on the nose as it was in the FOX movies, but I don’t think it should be removed completely. What I mean by that is that they should make sure the X-Men are seen as outsiders, however not as stand ins for real life persecuted groups.

I think the evolution and outsider angles should be played up as much as possible - I think X-Men and F4 should be the most sci fi properties so far in the MCU so The X stuff should be full of all races/religions/genders/orientations and eventually a few aliens. I think they should look to build toward the current Krakoan era of Mutants where good and bad mutants populate their own distinct nation and eventually create an almost Utopian society, showing that through working together humanity could/could have achieved the same if they look out for each other. Obviously I’d prefer it not to come out as corny as I’ve put it.

Basically, I would like mutants to be portrayed as a mirror to humanity (full of different types of people) and not just focussed on the plight of a particular minority. Definitely add in bits like humanity’s refusal to accept the next step in evolution via government and oppressive groups, BUT try not to add in on the nose nods to racial prejudice/homophobia etc. That would be a difficult thing to do, but I think Hickman’s done a good job of it so far in his current run of X books. But yeah, I think Mutants in the MCU should build toward an ideal society.

[BroHomo]

IMO, the minority metaphor is the 3rd-most important thing about the X-franchise with superheroics being 4th, so yes the metaphor is more important than being the "Mutant Avengers". But, I think for the vast majority of fans, we love the X-men first and foremost because (1) they're beautiful, sexy people who have (2) rich character arcs and relationships with each other dating back to the Claremont days.

Yeeeah Noo you def not my reasons behind my XLove. You may be the first fan ive known about to express this!

Take the Morlocks. They are easily the best representation of the mutant metaphor -- actual outsiders whose physical appearance actually does make them different from the norm, otherized, and hated and feared outcasts. But a Morlocks ongoing book would sell like crap. Because they're not beautiful, sexy people (for the most part, as tastes may vary) and they don't have the rich history of characterization and relationship drama that the X-men do.

Ehhh if the writing is good and the book is accessible Id have to hugely disagree...I didn't start reading/reading Xclusive Xmaterial till the 90s with Generation X. Be hard pressed to call Chamber, Skin (sorry buddy) Mondo, Penance Artie and Leech Beautiful and it sold like Gangbusters with the OG team

Yeah, it's funny when people say, "if you think too hard, the metaphor breaks down" when really, you don't have to think hard at all. On its face, the concept is ridiculous using the most popular X-men. Look, I love the X-men, but that's because I've read their books for years and years and therefore have no problem activating Suspension of Disbelief for the metaphor, and also, as mentioned, I love reading stories about my beautiful, sexy X-men and their rich character histories interacting with each other. But yeah, bringing the metaphor in the current year to a mainstream movie audience, who don't have years and years of practice reading the X-men, the writers of the movie should step lightly.

I think it's funny folks try to separate the metaphor from the mutants. I'm sure there are people who'd enjoy reading about adults putting on bright costumes then go out and impose their own value system on other adults...buuuut not me lol

And not to bash on X-men 2, but none of the things it ralked about are relevant to the world of today. The most important examples of racism and homophobia in modern western society doesn't ressmble the Holocaust whatsoever. It's very easy to talk about how awful ww2 was, it's much harder to talk about the african american community of today.

As someone who "voluntarily" went to a gay conversion camp in Florida I can confidently say this isn't true

And that's what Black Panther talked about in the most crucial scenes. I'm not going to deny that the giant climatic battle sequences were totally meaningless. But the main argument of the movie was about the necessity of preserving the rare prospiety of a country like Wakanda (and all the successful black celebrities of today) vs the necessity of those that made it to the top to support the brothers and sisters that were left behind or taken away.

Have to take your word for it...that movie FrFr puts me to sleep every time I try to watch it

It is always interesting to learn a thing or two about stuff, life… but it is absolutely not the reason why I open a comic and start reading… and particularly when it’s science-fiction.

Hm interesting I think I learn or gain new perspective in about 99% of the sh!t I read especially science

[Handsome men don't lose fights]

It is not necessary and wont happen.

MCU is not serious minded or mature enough with their story to tackle issues of discrimination as X-Men have, something I proved very well on another thread backed up with facts from numerous videos from xmen past movies and cartoons

Since this is an unproven, arbitrary opinion, there's no need to present evidence to refute this.

This theme is very deep, adult thinking, very heavy and sometimes dark and all these factors are not how MCU makes their movies...so there is no point, even if MCU were to race bend all the characters, Disney would still not be able to write a script like X-MEN 1 were discrimination is the main story arc with compelling grey grounds and less action driven fun light hearted narrative.

What?

The good of the fox films X-MEN 1and First Class in particular have dealt with the issues that they run circles around any MCU movie that has tried to deal with it and even X2 and DOFP are not far off.

This is an arbitrary opinion. This is like saying that because Dasani sells bottled water, no one needs a faucet in their kitchen anymore.

So I think MCU should not bother and move on to other stories. if they tackle this issue, this is one comparison battle with the best of the Fox movies and cartoons they are bound not to win.

They can do the mutant metaphor easily. It's very adaptable to a variety of scenarios. If anything, the MCU is primed for people to hate mutants. The world has just endured the snap. Wanda has just held hundreds of people hostage in a dream world. Karli Morgenthau and her supersoldier hipster army have just terrorized the United nations. The Accords aren't working, and now random kids are developing super powers? Get your pitchforks out, and your gene purity tests ready, because this world is going nuts!

[CosmiComic]

Didn't a bunch of superheroes save the whole world though?

[Handsome men don't lose fights]

Didn't a bunch of superheroes save the whole world though?

This insane last year has taught me that a huge percent of the world doesn't care about what's true anymore, they just want their biases confirmed. Movable goalposts can include mutants having to prove they originate from the 616 reality, or that they weren’t crisis actors infected with pym particles so that Tony Stark's estate could force Ultron vaccinations on white Christians.

[CosmiComic]

This insane last year has taught me that a huge percent of the world doesn't care about what's true anymore, they just want their biases confirmed. Movable goalposts can include mutants having to prove they originate from the 616 reality, or that they weren’t crisis actors infected with pym particles so that Tony Stark's estate could force Ultron vaccinations on white Christians.

That's possible. Still, i think a lot of mutants would get support and praise, for good and bad reasons. In the MCU, different heroes gwt different reactions depending on what they do, so I can imagine that would happen for MCU mutants too.

[Killerbee911]

They can do the mutant metaphor easily. It's very adaptable to a variety of scenarios. If anything, the MCU is primed for people to hate mutants. The world has just endured the snap. Wanda has just held hundreds of people hostage in a dream world. Karli Morgenthau and her supersoldier hipster army have just terrorized the United nations. The Accords aren't working, and now random kids are developing super powers? Get your pitchforks out, and your gene purity tests ready, because this world is going nuts!

They can do it but when they save the world and are clear positive a force for good, Are they going to pretend that everyone still hates them? The hate and fear thing works but it doesn't work forever. They are three options imo

1. The middleish grounds of real life where their mixed reactions and countries that hate mutants more than others
2. At some point a large enough group of humans understand that mutants are fine and hate is greatly reduced via mutants doing good stuff and being beneficial
3. At some point mutants and humans have a war and mutants isolate themselves

The only reason X-men are stuck in loop is because comics are ongoing and progress is the enemy ongoing comics. Racists and Bigots are yeah going to be Racist and Bigots those people are lost cause the majority of people aren't that so how many times would take Normal person see the X-men saving the world and saving people for you develop a positive opinion of some mutants. Real life is different in Charlottesville the second time, Thousands of anti racist protestors came out, In Boston some fools try to do straight pride and thousands of people came out against it, When George Floyd was killed Thousands of people came out to support against his killers. Reason things like that don't happen in comics is because they want "extreme hate and fear" narrative to always be a be a thing.

Slavery was eventually stopped, Apartheid was eventually dismantled, Jim Crow rules went away, Gay People can be married, etc. X-men gets no progress forward because comics need "extreme hate and fear" to always be a things. Everything is never going to be perfect but things do improve.

[Castle]

Hahahaha....lool, as if !!

Wolverine is stupendously nonsensical to represent the minority metaphor when all his abilities benefit him AND he is immortal.

k

thankfully, this has nothing to do with Wolverine. Maybe this could fit more MCU Wolverine and that is if MCU does have a wolverine as I dont see how MCU can have Wolverine in their films and still keep their light hearted unrealistic violent less gritty approach even for a pg 13 film/

Awww, cry me a river before I can never fall sick, can never die, never get seriously hurt, can heal from anything and can regenerate my full body from a drop of blood plus as if that wasn't enough, I have adamantium coated bones..nyyeeeh nyeeeh my life is sooo hard because some random strangers called me a freak.

You explained Wolverine's comic book powers. this is not an explanation of Wolverine's life and wolverine's life is what has made the character so appealing than his powers. Do I really need to say this on X Books? nahhhh.

Also you do know wolverine was experimented on that was how he got adamantium, something I have already brought up on another thread, which was the same for many in world wars of people who experienced prejudice . I even had to ask if Falcon and Winter Solider showed any horrors of experimentation as we saw in wolverine in X2 since some kept on brining it up but no one could show me because while I never saw the series, I also know that kind of story can never be on a Disney plus series.

I don't know what is worse, me talking about wolverine's life or me reading someone trying to paint Wolverine's life as perfect with flowers and rainbows and on an x-men forum.

[Alpha]

Slavery was eventually stopped, Apartheid was eventually dismantled, Jim Crow rules went away, Gay People can be married, etc. X-men gets no progress forward because comics need "extreme hate and fear" to always be a things. Everything is never going to be perfect but things do improve.

This is true of any social issue except the one I think they should actually focus on, disabilities. One day it will be possible to make any paraplegic walk, and all blind people will be able to see. But there will still be other forms of disabilities for several centuries, and they will always have the hardest time feeling like they are accepted and loved.