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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    I didn't like The Last Jedi at all, so not even going to try to defend that. Rey not being a Skywalker or Palpatine still could work though, if you just don't go with Kylo's elitist thing of Rey's parents being literally "no one" or whatever dismissive thing it was that he said.

    Like, they could just be people we hadn't heard of yet, but just recall that the prequel trilogy for some reason set it up that Anakin's mom was apparently impregnated by midichlorians ... okay, that's just a ridiculous thing really, but the point is that the whole thing with their being so strong with the Force and bringing balance to it was not initially something that was just a thing of genetics or bloodlines. Shmi didn't have Force powers, she was apparently just chosen by the Force to be the mom/grandmother to these super powerful Jedi. So you can make Rey a kind of spiritual successor in her being chosen ...

    Especially if you could have really great acting/writing/directing showing her to be a more worthy recipient of the wisdom/teaching of Luke and Leia than Kylo. He could still have his powers, but you have her outshining him because it's not your bloodline or what you inherited physically that makes you something great. I guess you could underscore this by pointing out that Anakin had great Force power, but he apparently did not have the strength or nobility of spirit or what-have-you to bring balance to the Force ... that had to be his kid, because ultimately Luke was more noble than Anakin.

    So, even if Kylo was their blood kin, you can still have Rey as chosen family, this orphan who is adopted because ... well, one, she's an orphan, but also because apparently the Force chose her, and once it did, she demonstrated to the older characters that she was a truly good person, and strong enough to stand against their kid who unfortunately went the way of his grandfather.

    Then too, a benefit of making her a "random" would be that subsequent stories could add more to her own family, if you want. She could have a long-lost twin out there, like Luke and Leia, or some other relatives ... or, I don't know, maybe just lean into the thing where chosen family is as valid as blood family, and she just finds others like herself who were apparently chosen by the Force. Basically just that, by not having her directly related to any of the established character, you have a pretty open book to introduce new characters and storylines, as opposed to needing to remain stuck with the established ones.

    You could even have had Finn, another orphan like her, developing Force powers, too ... just saying, lots of directions they could have gone, that could have worked better than the kind of anti-climatic thing they ended up doing.
    Okay, that’s much more of a convincing answer to me. If you made the entire point of the ST be about rejecting the dramatic advantage of a biological family bond for a found family one, and exploited the hell out of Kylo as a counter-example with no redeeming features, then I think Rey Random could actually pull something off for her as a character, *and* make sure the Skywalker’s aren’t completely screwed over into being screwed up with a sad ending. And I genuinely like this idea better than any non-Solo/Skywalker parentage she could have, including Palpatine and Kenobi.

    I’ll confess that I know a lot of my issue with the idea of Rey Random comes down to The Last Jedi being, in my opinion, the worst way to ever present the idea, and one that highlights all of its weaknesses - and no, I genuinely don’t believe it did anything for Rey except hurt her as a character and asset, and that sadly, as groan-worthy as the Rey Palpatine retcon in TROS was, it still helped her out after TLJ almost totally torpedoed her. And if you ask me, the ST can never really have as great of an impact as it could because of how TLJ handled her and the Skywalker family story - both she and the Skywalkers are better off having adventures that don’t tie back into the ST much at all.

    ...And yeah, I’d argue that, to me, Rey Skywalker would still ultimately be a better choice... but that would depend more on how it was executed, and on how well you exploited it’s “aftershocks” elsewhere.

    To me, Rey actually was a pretty compelling character in TFA given the context - she was getting Part 1/3 there, so you’re exchanging the pace of developing her like Jyn Erso for hopefully deeper development over a longer period of time... and because, to be blunt, I think people often ignore how much personality The Last Jedi removed from her. And while I can see the way that Rey Random *could* work, if you fully embraced a found family theme and were willing to use Kylo the way he almost has to be used to pull it off... I think there’d still be more dramatic payoff in “inverting” Rey’s journey to Luke’s: have her contrast his arc of discovering his father is a villain but that drawing them closer together to solve the conflict by having Rey discover a heroic father but struggle with abandonment issues that eventually make that *particular* relationship unable to solve the conflict.

    While I think Rey as Luke's surrogate daughter is a good idea, I think Rey as Luke’s traumatized daughter whose issues mean she can’t both reconcile with him as a father and be his student is more dramatically delicious... and leaves a way for Leia being her teacher (even if just in terms of emotional maturity and wisdom) to have extra resonance.

    But!

    ...Bigger than that, I think there are some natural limitations that Rey Random puts on the story elsewhere that Rey Skywalker would have. I mean, Kylo hadto die if Rey wasn’t a Skywalker. Flat out. Leave him alive, and inevitably, someone would pull a Rian Johnson and overshadow Rey with him, and even if they didn’t mean to, heks have the easier pitch to sell to new audiences for all time. Evil or good. And on top of that, the Skywalker family story would always have some extra element of depression and disappointment. It’d be constant struggle to reinforce the found family meaning of the ST against people who would simply always be depressed that the blood family ended on a grid of a human being.

    But, well... it’s easier to sell a happy ending for the family with a blood continuation. Not right, but easier. And Ben Solo can survive the ST if Rey’s a Skywalker; no one would doubt she was more important than him, and he could have some long, drawn out redemption story or found a new dark side order, whatever. And, well... I’m sorry, but the smarter way to handle Luke’s story between the OT and ST would be to have a Mara Jade-esque love interest who’s Rey’s mom enter the picture, so you can milk that time period for stories and cash... and you could even pull a Zuko and have Rey go on a post-ST odyssey to find her mother.

    To me, Rey Random only works if you go full bore on found family, and would still be weaker than Rey Skywalker... but The Last Jedi will always be the reason it couldn’t work in the actual ST.
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  2. #17
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    I don't think blood continuation is necessary. Kylo dies, Rey moves on, etc. could work if other factors hadn't been done so poorly.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I don't think blood continuation is necessary. Kylo dies, Rey moves on, etc. could work if other factors hadn't been done so poorly.
    It’s the “other factors” that I think always made me leery of the idea of Rey Not-A-Skywalker - the need to have 100% commitment to the idea of adoption/found family storytelling, the need to kill off Kylo, and the need to know you would be fighting up hill with some folks from a lot of sides.

    Found family works better in a TV series where you can take your time to “prove” it, or when you exaggerate and ramp up on the loathsomeness of the foiling blood relative so that no one would want that - like just how thoroughly James Gunn managed to get the audience on the side of Yondu over Ego by having Ego go the extra mile into his lover cancer, since I think you could make the argument that without that, the audience would still think Star Lord could “redeem” Ego even with “The Expansion” megalomania.

    I feel you can kind of measure how much the “bloodline” connection matters to an audience member based off how off-handedly they expected Kylo to be redeemed as part of a “satisfactory ending,” even (and esepcially) if he died. I mean, even if all an audience member wants is Han and Leia’s kid to have his “soul saved” at the last minute after the way he killed Han... that's still an expression of bias and favoritism for a blood relative that isn’t going to Rey.

    I always felt the better creative and business move would be to avoid having creators and audiences give into their bias by just making Rey a Skywalker, and then using her and Finn’s story as the continuing “found family” theme (heck, there was even a way to make it so Finn gains the name Skywalker via his relationship with Rey).

    And if you asked me, I would say the potential future benefits of having a Ben Solo alive at the end (with Rey as Luke’s daughter or Ben’s sister, whatever) would always outweigh the potential bonus you’d get from *emphasizing* but not really establishing the found family story that would require his death.
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  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    I think your issues with Rey Random leaving the Skywalker story at a sour ending because Kylo was a terrible character are a little strange, I mean if we're trowing a out one hypothetical, "how we think it should have been..." where Rey isn't some bad fan fiction level insert what's to stop one from wishing that while they were at it they redo Kylo into not being terrible or just erasing him from existence entirely?

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Okay, that’s much more of a convincing answer to me. If you made the entire point of the ST be about rejecting the dramatic advantage of a biological family bond for a found family one, and exploited the hell out of Kylo as a counter-example with no redeeming features, then I think Rey Random could actually pull something off for her as a character, *and* make sure the Skywalker’s aren’t completely screwed over into being screwed up with a sad ending. And I genuinely like this idea better than any non-Solo/Skywalker parentage she could have, including Palpatine and Kenobi.

    I’ll confess that I know a lot of my issue with the idea of Rey Random comes down to The Last Jedi being, in my opinion, the worst way to ever present the idea, and one that highlights all of its weaknesses - and no, I genuinely don’t believe it did anything for Rey except hurt her as a character and asset, and that sadly, as groan-worthy as the Rey Palpatine retcon in TROS was, it still helped her out after TLJ almost totally torpedoed her. And if you ask me, the ST can never really have as great of an impact as it could because of how TLJ handled her and the Skywalker family story - both she and the Skywalkers are better off having adventures that don’t tie back into the ST much at all.

    ...And yeah, I’d argue that, to me, Rey Skywalker would still ultimately be a better choice... but that would depend more on how it was executed, and on how well you exploited it’s “aftershocks” elsewhere.

    To me, Rey actually was a pretty compelling character in TFA given the context - she was getting Part 1/3 there, so you’re exchanging the pace of developing her like Jyn Erso for hopefully deeper development over a longer period of time... and because, to be blunt, I think people often ignore how much personality The Last Jedi removed from her. And while I can see the way that Rey Random *could* work, if you fully embraced a found family theme and were willing to use Kylo the way he almost has to be used to pull it off... I think there’d still be more dramatic payoff in “inverting” Rey’s journey to Luke’s: have her contrast his arc of discovering his father is a villain but that drawing them closer together to solve the conflict by having Rey discover a heroic father but struggle with abandonment issues that eventually make that *particular* relationship unable to solve the conflict.

    While I think Rey as Luke's surrogate daughter is a good idea, I think Rey as Luke’s traumatized daughter whose issues mean she can’t both reconcile with him as a father and be his student is more dramatically delicious... and leaves a way for Leia being her teacher (even if just in terms of emotional maturity and wisdom) to have extra resonance.

    But!

    ...Bigger than that, I think there are some natural limitations that Rey Random puts on the story elsewhere that Rey Skywalker would have. I mean, Kylo hadto die if Rey wasn’t a Skywalker. Flat out. Leave him alive, and inevitably, someone would pull a Rian Johnson and overshadow Rey with him, and even if they didn’t mean to, heks have the easier pitch to sell to new audiences for all time. Evil or good. And on top of that, the Skywalker family story would always have some extra element of depression and disappointment. It’d be constant struggle to reinforce the found family meaning of the ST against people who would simply always be depressed that the blood family ended on a grid of a human being.

    But, well... it’s easier to sell a happy ending for the family with a blood continuation. Not right, but easier. And Ben Solo can survive the ST if Rey’s a Skywalker; no one would doubt she was more important than him, and he could have some long, drawn out redemption story or found a new dark side order, whatever. And, well... I’m sorry, but the smarter way to handle Luke’s story between the OT and ST would be to have a Mara Jade-esque love interest who’s Rey’s mom enter the picture, so you can milk that time period for stories and cash... and you could even pull a Zuko and have Rey go on a post-ST odyssey to find her mother.

    To me, Rey Random only works if you go full bore on found family, and would still be weaker than Rey Skywalker... but The Last Jedi will always be the reason it couldn’t work in the actual ST.
    Yeah, I would have been down for Rey being Luke's long lost daughter somehow, following TFA. I mean, it's a bit of an obvious/predictable direction to go with it, and depending how exactly they explained her past, might have had other problems besides, but at the end of the day, the movies prior had really already been mostly the Saga of the Skywalker Family anyway, just with a bunch of other stuff thrown in. So yeah, making the sequel trilogy just the third set of that would have been fine with me. I like your idea about her being too traumatized about the abandonment to fully mesh with Luke as a mentor, and therefore connecting more deeply with Leia, as well. That all could have been good.

    Also agreed that TLJ was just a dumpster fire in every respect though, so not only screwed up the groundwork laid for Rey, Finn, and Poe in the first movie -- who all still could have ended up great characters, I think -- but also hobbled the last movie, because so much of it was dedicated to undoing the crap storytelling in the second one. As you say, bad as the retcon of her being Palpatine's granddaughter was, it was still better than whatever was going on in TLJ.

    All that said though, I would have had no problem whatsoever with Kylo never having a redemption arc and just being killed as an evil guy. Frankly, for me, I think I would kind of have preferred that, after the way he killed Han. Plus, just -- you know, not every villain needs a redemption. Just let a bad guy be evil sometimes, even if they are somehow related to the good guys.

    I'm also really partial to the idea of stories that confirm the power and validity of chosen family, though. I mean, the truth of the matter is that lots of people have some just crappy, dysfunctional families they were born into, but can end up part of a loving and supporting family, despite not being blood related. I think our traditional storytelling too often dismisses that reality, so I would have been totally down for a series as culturally huge as Star Wars really leaning into that. I mean, I guess they ultimately kind of did, with Rey deciding to take the name Skywalker ... but again, RoS was pretty hobbled by how much they were trying to get done, to both subvert most of what the previous movie set up, and try to wrap up the whole thing.

    At the end of the day, just kind of sucks, because I really though the prequel trilogy was ultimately pretty awful, taken altogether, and TFA for a minute there seemed like they could get things back on track. Instead just kind of wrapped up with a whimper, when it could have been epic.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    I think your issues with Rey Random leaving the Skywalker story at a sour ending because Kylo was a terrible character are a little strange, I mean if we're trowing a out one hypothetical, "how we think it should have been..." where Rey isn't some bad fan fiction level insert what's to stop one from wishing that while they were at it they redo Kylo into not being terrible or just erasing him from existence entirely?
    Well, part of my thing is that I actually think Rey, Finn, and Kylo are all actually pretty good (Rey and Kylo) to great (Finn) in TFA... provided you recognize what strengths they do have as characters and concepts, and address their actual weaknesses, instead of looking for ones that aren’t there. In general, I tend to think that while TFA isn’t very original, it’s actually got quite a few legs up on TLJ in terms fo quality and story viability. I’m that weirdo who thinks that people forget there were actual reasons beyond simple nostalgia for the film being a runaway success... so a lot fo my thoughts are about ways to follow up on TFA without changing it too much.

    Can’t emphasize enough how much I think Rey’s “audience insert” element was a creation of TLJ’s apathy for her, or how much Finn’s impotence to the plot is TLJ’s creation, or how much Kylo being *misused* as a male lead is on TLJ.

    I mean, if we go back to before TFA is made, than I certainly think that an easy answer would be to just remove Kylo’s past as Ben Solo, and watch as most of the TLJ-onward problems disappear. I have to say that if you want a female main character (as pretty much everyone save maybe Johnson wanted to do), then there’s a weird relationship between her relationship to the family and to how likable/charismatic/easy to sell the Solo boy could be; as with Kylo, the options open up immensely if the female lead is a Skywalker/Solo, and retract if she isn’t. I just don’t trust audiences or creators to keep to a non-related female hero is there’s a completely conventional Skywalker Dude right next to her.

    Kylo’s not a terrible character, and in TFA is a pretty good villain, antagonist, and foil; he's a terrible male lead/romantic lead, POV character, and sole representative of the Skywalker family.

    A pitiable, weak-willed man transformed into an irrational and delusional monster by brainwashing, as Kylo was shown and implied to be in TFA, is a fantastic foil for Rey *and* Finn, and as someone who thinks his loss in TFA was properly played with so it wouldn’t actually interfere with his role as an intimidating instrument of destruction. I was a fan of Jacen Solo and Darth Caedus from the Legends EU... and I still thought that Kylo was a better villain on a functional level because they weren’t pretending he was ever like Jacen Solo, and made him a “supporting antagonist.”

    But he could never be a male lead, or be treated as sympathetic, or have his POV given any respect outside of the way it impacted his own crazy arc.

    ...This may seem weird, but I also genuinely think that a possible move other than TROS’s half-and-half approach to TLJ would have been to just completely drop any of the respect for TLJ, treat it as a mea culpa on the part of LFL, and just incorporate Rey Skywalker, a Rey-Finn romance, and have Kylo be explicitly a crazy person no one should pretend was ever going to work as a POV character. It’d be sloppy as hell, exactly as trite and contrived as anything in TLJ and TROS... but at least you could then start fixing stuff afterwards, instead of just burying the family, Kylo/Ben, Rey’s respectability, and Finn’s place as the male lead, and sitting on the entire time period.

    Which would, I think be an improvement. Not really on a film-to-film basis... but for the franchise, which is bigger than any one, two or three films.
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  7. #22
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    I think Rey being no one works, the problem is JJ Abrams' mystery box obsession didn't help her in the beginning

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I think Rey being no one works, the problem is JJ Abrams' mystery box obsession didn't help her in the beginning
    Weird thing for me is that I actually think TFA shows she could stand on her own without the heritage... even though it’s the one with the mystery box and arguably foreshadowing that only really works with Rey Skywalker/Solo (in particular, her getting the lightsaber just doesn’t have anywhere near as much oomph once you remove the possibility she’s a Solo or Skywalker.)

    I mean, she has a compelling flaw - her dangerous denial at being abandoned - alongside far more endearing qualities of empathy, strength and savvy, while still having some real personality (she’s a bit prickly at first, utterly astounded and uncultured at the wider Galaxy when she finally gets exposed to it, and has some very real cynicism she’s struggling with.) TLJ, as much as it’s supposedly trying to sell Rey Random, makes her much blander, repackages her flaw as being a banal identity crisis that doesn’t fit her situation, and makes her stupidly naive and idealistic, but only towards Kylo.

    If they kept Rey’s personality and portrayal from TFA as their starting point for something genuinely ambitious with her in the next two films, she wouldn’t need a heritage.

    ...The Skywalkers would still need their own “compensatory” story as well to make up for Ben’s inevitable death to help Rey’s story, though. Like, I don’t think you can kill off either Luke or Leia after TFA at that point; they almost need to leave still breathing as Rey’s surrogate family to sell that they get a happy ending through her. I know there are people who don't care about how the family story turned out, but to be honest, their apathy shouldn’t be regarded as equally valid as those who *do* care - they’re guaranteed “customers” of the story, so it’s not like they’ll run away if the family gets a happy ending. And fans of the family story are still too large of a contingent to ignore for the sake of what’s ultimately just a head fake on a mystery box.

    ...And yes, I’d argue that even an ideal Rey Random story, with her as the surrogate family mem member, Kylo dead, and Luke and Leia escaping the story alive? Still not quite as strong as Rey Skywalker would be. The perfect Rey Random would be good... but I think even an average Rey Skywalker would be better. It just has so many advantages in terms of how quickly it nails down the audience’s attention and priorities, quickly establishes resonance and interesting plotlines both in and outside of the ST for Rey and the Skywalkers.

    Bluntly, unless they knew they had the work ethic to do Rey a random well, Rey either should have been a Skywalker, or Kylo shouldn’t be Ben Solo.
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    Why exactly does she need to be a Skywalker to get the lightsaber? I don't see why the next gen of heroes needs to be genetically related to the last one

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Why exactly does she need to be a Skywalker to get the lightsaber? I don't see why the next gen of heroes needs to be genetically related to the last one
    The important thing isn’t the genetics - it’s the “family” designation with the Skywalkers that’s “needed,” and the blood connection is simply the easiest, quickest way to establish that and almost “ensure” it.

    Put simply: *a* Star Wars film doesn’t need a Skywalker protagonist at all... but a Star Wars *Saga* film that’s a sequel to 5 straight films that feature the Skywalker family as the protagonists, and their family (by both blood and by choice) as the bulk of the supporting cast? Only The Phantom Menace features a non-Skywalker lead for Lucas’s main films in Qui-Gon, and Anakin’s still the deuteragonist there, with Qui-Gon as a surrogate father. You, I, and others may not think that a Solo or Skywalker should get preferential treatment if they KOR enormous fleshed out... but Rian Johnson did when he wrote TLJ and made the story revolve around Luke and Kylo instead of Rey and Finn, LFL thought so when they ordered Palpatine brought back and TLJ’s ending for Kylo ignored so Ben Solo could get a heroic stand even if that further hurt Rey’s story, LFL’s Story Group thought so when the only major tie-in series they wanted to TROS was about Ben/Kylo... and enough fans shared that opinion to see Rey (and Finn) go from being unexpectedly popular to unpopular compared to Kylo, when he didn’t really do anything to “earn” that edge... and mostly from an absolute minimum of actually trying to develop him, but still treating him as entitled to sympathy because of his parentage.

    She doesn’t need it to get the lightsaber because of who her parents are... but to be honest, I don’t see any reason to use the Anakin/Luke blade, or to have *that* lightsaber call to her, or have it get a pseudo-Sword In The Stone scene unless you want Rey to get the extra-oomph of being a “rightful heir” - something that’s difficult to establish if she hasn’t actually studied the Force with the Skywalkers and only has a connection to the family through Han at the time. It’s the best way I see to make sure the lightsaber scene doesn’t feed into a perception Rey’s a wholly arbitrary and bland repetition of Luke/Anakin in archetype... but without any extra resonance that came from the family connection, which I’d argue is what elevated Luke from being just an archetypal hero and made the Star Wars films “space opera” instead of just a “pulp throwback.”

    Which is arguably the perspective that most hurts her character, just like how Kylo’s parentage most explains his special treatment by the story.

    Both Rey and Kylo are blatant echoes of OT characters - Luke and Vader - but Kylo has an explicit and clear connection to Vader from before the ST starts, and Rey doesn’t. There is, sadly, a reason why so many creators and audience members are blatantly prejudiced towards Kylo over Rey - because as a Solo and Vader’s grandson, he’s a “new iteration” rather than just a “rip-off.” Even as shallow and pathetic as Kylo is when placed in a male lead role, he’s getting the nod over Finn, and at Rey’s expense as the main character, because of that family connection. Even having him try to explicitly reject that connection by killing Han didn’t kill that favoritism.

    Characters like Jyn Erso, Ezra Bridger, Iden Versio, or if your want to throwback to old Legends stuff, Zayne Carrick or Ulic Qel Droma, have no “need” to be a Skywalker because a) they’re made differently from the Skywalkers on concept levels, and b) they’re not “in competition” with Skywalkers for the audience’s attention. Rey, unfortunately, is both extremely similar to the Skywalkers on a concept level *and* “in competition” with Kylo. It’s not that LFL was “obligated” to start promoting Kylo over Rey and Finn because he was a Skywalker... but it’s not surprising they did, sadly.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 05-19-2021 at 07:26 AM.
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    Rey is similar to the Skywalkers, but I think that's due to Abrams' nostalgia. I don't think the saga can't continue without actual Skywalkers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Rey is similar to the Skywalkers, but I think that's due to Abrams' nostalgia. I don't think the saga can't continue without actual Skywalkers
    And I’d argue that “nostalgia” is not a good enough reason for the similarities - again, it makes her more likely to be seen as a “rip off” than an “heir” the way Kylo is. While almost all “Mary Sue” complaints about her are overblown, a lack of originality is a problem... and a problem that gets ignored when the repetition is “justified” in universe. And again, while I don't think the Saga *needs* “actual” Skywalkers to continue... the impulse of creators and audiences disagrees with that, and Kylo Ren especially changes the situation for the worse.

    If TFA were a different movie - Rey being built differently, Kylo not being a Solo, etc. - then there wouldn’t be any real “need” for a Skywalker hero. But clearly, the reaction of way too many people, both in LFL and out, to being told that Rey wasn’t a Skywalker, was to start hoping Kylo would become the de facto main character, while driving many others away from the ST because they knew refusing to start cheering for Kylo meant hoping the Skywalkers would be wiped out by with a ****-stain of a final member.

    The difference financially may be somewhere around a $800 million dollars, even if those who are okay with it still create over $1 billion - if we’re looking at the ST’s box office returns.

    ...And to be honest, I really don’t get the argument that Rey would be hurt as a character by being a Skywalker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    And I’d argue that “nostalgia” is not a good enough reason for the similarities - again, it makes her more likely to be seen as a “rip off” than an “heir” the way Kylo is. While almost all “Mary Sue” complaints about her are overblown, a lack of originality is a problem... and a problem that gets ignored when the repetition is “justified” in universe. And again, while I don't think the Saga *needs* “actual” Skywalkers to continue... the impulse of creators and audiences disagrees with that, and Kylo Ren especially changes the situation for the worse.

    If TFA were a different movie - Rey being built differently, Kylo not being a Solo, etc. - then there wouldn’t be any real “need” for a Skywalker hero. But clearly, the reaction of way too many people, both in LFL and out, to being told that Rey wasn’t a Skywalker, was to start hoping Kylo would become the de facto main character, while driving many others away from the ST because they knew refusing to start cheering for Kylo meant hoping the Skywalkers would be wiped out by with a ****-stain of a final member.

    The difference financially may be somewhere around a $800 million dollars, even if those who are okay with it still create over $1 billion - if we’re looking at the ST’s box office returns.

    ...And to be honest, I really don’t get the argument that Rey would be hurt as a character by being a Skywalker.
    The point is she shouldn't have to be related to anyone to be the main hero. Most of the Jedi don't come from some big family. Why should she? The Force connects to all living things

    One of the problems IMO is the new series constantly trying to repeat the favorite parts of the original series.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    The point is she shouldn't have to be related to anyone to be the main hero. Most of the Jedi don't come from some big family. Why should she? The Force connects to all living things

    One of the problems IMO is the new series constantly trying to repeat the favorite parts of the original series.
    Because there’s many people who are more interested in the main character of the family story than they are in the ST’s main story. And a lot of fans and creators thus immediately chose to focus on and favor Kylo (or Luke in TLJ) over Rey and Finn because Rey and Finn, and their conflict, wasn’t as tightly connected to the family story as Kylo’s was. They didn’t “have” to... but they did, and of course they would. To them and many others, the “Saga” is about the family, not merely the episode number.

    People confuse these arguments for one of “elitism” or “force supremacy/eugenics” or something. It’s not. It’s story preference; more people are drawn to an epic multi-decade and multi-generation story than are drawn to a shorter three film story - particularly one that’s copying an element of the larger story.

    You’re right that a major limitation of the ST was its clear attempts to echo or “rhyme” with the OT - and one of those limitations is that it heightens the appeal and meaning of the “family story” in relation to the ST’s “main story.” Having Rey not be a Skywalker, or even Luke’s surrogate daughter, as TLJ refused to do, puts the weight and focus of the family story onto Kylo for the ST... and you immediately saw people decide that meant that Kylo’s story took precedence over Rey’s.

    It's not really about the Force, or even the bloodline, but the family - hell, before the Disney buy-out, one of Dark Horse Comics last Star Wars series was a successful 18 issue “Legacy” series focused on a non-Force using Solo girl. While a “mundane” family member is a harder sell than a Force user, it’s still a compelling enough connection that a “completionist” would go after it.

    It may be a flaw in people, but that’s how it works.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Because there’s many people who are more interested in the main character of the family story than they are in the ST’s main story. And a lot of fans and creators thus immediately chose to focus on and favor Kylo (or Luke in TLJ) over Rey and Finn because Rey and Finn, and their conflict, wasn’t as tightly connected to the family story as Kylo’s was. They didn’t “have” to... but they did, and of course they would. To them and many others, the “Saga” is about the family, not merely the episode number.

    People confuse these arguments for one of “elitism” or “force supremacy/eugenics” or something. It’s not. It’s story preference; more people are drawn to an epic multi-decade and multi-generation story than are drawn to a shorter three film story - particularly one that’s copying an element of the larger story.

    You’re right that a major limitation of the ST was its clear attempts to echo or “rhyme” with the OT - and one of those limitations is that it heightens the appeal and meaning of the “family story” in relation to the ST’s “main story.” Having Rey not be a Skywalker, or even Luke’s surrogate daughter, as TLJ refused to do, puts the weight and focus of the family story onto Kylo for the ST... and you immediately saw people decide that meant that Kylo’s story took precedence over Rey’s.

    It's not really about the Force, or even the bloodline, but the family - hell, before the Disney buy-out, one of Dark Horse Comics last Star Wars series was a successful 18 issue “Legacy” series focused on a non-Force using Solo girl. While a “mundane” family member is a harder sell than a Force user, it’s still a compelling enough connection that a “completionist” would go after it.

    It may be a flaw in people, but that’s how it works.
    Or they could've done right by Rey, instead of putting the primary focus on Kylo's journey, and then it wouldn't be a problem if she's no one. And it does come off as a bit elitist if only one family gets all the attention in a massive galaxy.

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