Xmen Monday 106

[Kingdom X]

People only call it "pandering" when its something THEY don't care about or doesn't appeal to THEM.

Otherwise its "fanservice" or "recognizing continuity" or "good writing"

People who whine about pandering are literally just mad that they’re not the only people being pandered too anymore.

[Devaishwarya]

@Sal...
We've all hated stories/writers other readers love. And we've all loved stories/writers that are collectively reviled.
At the end of the day, the writer has to just focus on doing the best job that he can to submit the best product that he can under the purview of his Editors.

And even then, it's an absolute certainty that...some will love it, some will hate it, and others will be completely apathetic.

[Hizashi]

"Gerry: I don’t feel the pressure of fans, just my own expectations and that of my collaborators. If CB [Cebulski] and Jordan are happy, and my artists are happy, the fans have every shot at happiness. I can’t unmake a fan of Polaris, I can only make them not a fan of mine, and I’m only trying to deliver ideas to my artist to turn into moonshots. So, yes, sure, as you said. Lots of pressure in the Polaris business."

My favourite answer in the entire interview.
He's 100% correct.
As a creative you really cannot be obsessed with how the fans will receive your work. Because even your best attempts will only please some readers, some of the times. And...you have to answer to your editors first and foremost as they're the ones paying your salary. Do your best and hope it's well-received.

It's unfortunate that many fans of specific characters like Lorna, Jean, Scott, Storm, Rogue etc. are very rarely ever open to that "shot of happiness". Long before stories are published they have pre-conceived notions and judgments and personal, individual wants and expectations that no writer can fully meet or live up to, ever...and they end up resentful and disappointed.

What happens if/when Cebulski and Jordan and Duggan all misunderstand a character? Who steps in to tell them they're making a mistake? Not the fans I guess.

The characters you've named have either been sidelined or mishandled for years, we aren't wrong to be wary.

[Lucyinthesky]

People only call it "pandering" when its something THEY don't care about or doesn't appeal to THEM.

Otherwise its "fanservice" or "recognizing continuity" or "good writing"

I think there´s a difference between pandering/fanservice and writting imo pandering would be if a writer decided to do something with a character with the sole objective of getting approval from a group of fans while writting in general means they are developing plot and storyoline with a group of characters. I find most writers just try to tell the story and fans can like or dislike what they are doing with the story. So I am 100% in agreetment with Duggan here, as a writer the best he can do is try to do a good job with his editor and artist and hope the fans also enjoy the work.

[Nazrel]

My only worry is laura synch relationship. Along as that dosent take over there characters its good. I have high hopes but as a comics fan I know to always be skeptical

If used as an exploration of how the person he knew is dead, and this promise of immortality a lie, it could be interesting... if it progresses with the expectation that we are expected to be invested and find it romantic, that would be creepy and disgusting.

[Brian B]

"But that's none of my business."

Bansheemma confirmed!
...or most likely not.

Banshee’s outfit looks like crap.

Charles Xavier’s outfit — is that a kaftan? — totally fits the Krakoan Xavier to a T. He looks like some bizarre version of Dr. No gone horribly wrong, which is perfect for Krakoan Xavier.

[Devaishwarya]

What happens if/when Cebulski and Jordan and Duggan all misunderstand a character? Who steps in to tell them they're making a mistake? Not the fans I guess.

The characters you've named have either been sidelined or mishandled for years, we aren't wrong to be wary.

Consider, their "misunderstanding" is just simply their "understanding" that we the fan-base just don't agree with?

Right here, in this very selective community, we have very disparate understandings of who these characters are. eg. I will absolutely disagree with Salarta with regards to Lorna, but who am I to tell Salarta that they simply "misunderstand" what the writers intend? It's not my place to tell you that you're wrong, nor will I ever presume as such...just as it's not any reader's place to tell the writer or editors (who are writers and editors of these characters for a reason) that they are wrong and "misunderstand" the characters they're writing.

And while you are not wrong to be wary based on your past experience...I am quite excited.
We just don't know what the new writer will bring. Because it is going to be a new experience for both the writer and the readers.

At the end of the day...the prerogative is always yours. As it is mine. And the writer's.

[Fokken]

Consider, their "misunderstanding" is just simply their "understanding" that we the fan-base just don't agree with?

Right here, in this very selective community, we have very disparate understandings of who these characters are. eg. I will absolutely disagree with Salarta with regards to Lorna, but who am I to tell Salarta that they simply "misunderstand" what the writers intend? It's not my place to tell you that you're wrong, nor will I ever presume as such...just as it's not any reader's place to tell the writer or editors (who are writers and editors of these characters for a reason) that they are wrong and "misunderstand" the characters they're writing.

And while you are not wrong to be wary based on your past experience...I am quite excited.
We just don't know what the new writer will bring. Because it is going to be a new experience for both the writer and the readers.

At the end of the day...the prerogative is always yours. As it is mine. And the writer's.

Very well said, Devaishwarya

[salarta]

@Sal...
We've all hated stories/writers other readers love. And we've all loved stories/writers that are collectively reviled.
At the end of the day, the writer has to just focus on doing the best job that he can to submit the best product that he can under the purview of his Editors.

And even then, it's an absolute certainty that...some will love it, some will hate it, and others will be completely apathetic.

I have a mixed bag of a response.

We agree that a writer can't please everyone. They have to focus on doing the best job they can. I take that as meaning care put into doing well by the character, bearing their history and past development in mind. Sometimes certain periods do need to be disregarded - largely if those periods ignored important history and past development. Within this scope, I think fans of a character can play a vital role.

I stress fans of a character. Not fans of a franchise, or fans of connected characters. Because what a fan of a franchise or other character thinks is best can be very different from what a fan of that character sees. Franchise fans can be willing to sacrifice perception of a character for the "greater good" of the franchise. Same with fans of other characters.

When I say perception of a character, I don't mean "they can never do anything wrong or have no faults." Every character does bad things and has faults. The trick is depicting it well. If we took an outside view of Wandavision, Wanda's an irredeemable monster for what she put the people of Westview through. The show emphasized her feelings and perspective tied in with those actions, allowing the audience to understand her. Lorna running from the Sentinel attack on Genosha was itself technically a fault - she abandoned people who needed her. But we saw her perspective which provided understanding.

Fans of a character can be useful because they're aware of the history. It doesn't mean every single thing has to be specially tailored exclusively to those fans. Especially on a team book. A team book can't be written with a goal of catering to just one character's fans. But fans can still serve as a guidepost of sorts.

That said, there is the "under the purview of their editor(s)" wrinkle. It goes both ways. Ideal is both good writer and good editor. In the case of a good writer and bad editor, a writer can only do so much but must ultimately do what the editor - effectively their boss - wants. With a bad writer and good editor, the editor may be able to direct the writer in a positive direction but there's only so much that editor can do before it becomes backseat writing and the writer may as well quit. I'm not making any statements about the X-Men book when I say this. I'm speaking in very broad generalities. More of a philosophical argument.

As said, a writer can only do the best they can. How they pursue their best and what opportunities and limitations they have in doing that are key factors.

I am guarded but think X-Men #1 looks promising for Lorna both in terms of the vote outcome and the pages we've seen so far.

[Lucyinthesky]

Consider, their "misunderstanding" is just simply their "understanding" that we the fan-base just don't agree with?

Right here, in this very selective community, we have very disparate understandings of who these characters are. eg. I will absolutely disagree with Salarta with regards to Lorna, but who am I to tell Salarta that they simply "misunderstand" what the writers intend? It's not my place to tell you that you're wrong, nor will I ever presume as such...just as it's not any reader's place to tell the writer or editors (who are writers and editors of these characters for a reason) that they are wrong and "misunderstand" the characters they're writing.

And while you are not wrong to be wary based on your past experience...I am quite excited.
We just don't know what the new writer will bring. Because it is going to be a new experience for both the writer and the readers.

At the end of the day...the prerogative is always yours. As it is mine. And the writer's.

I agree completely

I think we as fans forget Writers and editors are as big or more fans that we are and they are also fans of a certain group of characters or comics era but they are still professionals who try to do their work in a way that keeps continuity and also brings something new to each character, as Hickman said some time ago sometimes they hit or miss but the work is done and it´s also fine if we as readers don´t always agree with everything or think that they should focus more on our favorites or their characterization it not quite clear, we still can do that as long as we do it in a respecful manner and know there´s no way you can please everyone while being true to the story the writer want´s to tell. If a particular era or writer doesn´t appeal to us we can always come back to a story that really gets our attention.

[Angleman70]

Completely understandable, Angleman 70, to be wary of character exploration based on how they were written by previous writers but...Duggan isn't any of those writers. Hix-Man isn't any of those writers. Percy isn't any of those writers. And at some point we as readers and fans of these characters have to actively suppress what we already know (and hate) about these characterisations in order to appreciate what the current writer is doing now...with a healthy dose of subjectivity thrown in.

You say Lorna's time being possessed by Malice was detrimental to her...fair enough. I loved it. I respected what Claremont was going for..."changing the character into something different because of the experience(s) she's had up to that point" (did I agree with the actual physical changes in her power and appearance...not really...but it was interesting...imho). And just as you and I can differ greatly on that one plot point, we must expect the actual writers to have and express their own points of view, based on the story they're writing, regardless of what we may personally want and expect as individual readers.


Yes, we may end up hating it, as you do Claremont's Polaris/Malice plot but that's not because the writer didn't do the job he was given to the best of his intention and ability.

Thanks. I agree with that to a point. There is not one Xman who hasn’t had it rough. In terms of Lorna that’s true as well or maybe more so depending on who you ask. We just want to see her shine. We have all seen characters like Cyclops and Jean had mega story after story where their characters were fairly developed over time. That hasn’t really happened for Polaris. Some hints here and there were given and some confusion as to her personality as a person have been underdeveloped. As to why? Some writers haven’t narrowed her character down. As for plot developments, yes absolutely! A hero can’t be a hero without having their struggles or rough patches. Again Lorna has had many of them. We just want our Polaris to be better, that’s all.

[The tall man]

I mean…i dont even blame him tbh

Too bad Remender didn't get this type of understanding when he tweeted at certain toxic fans to drown in hobo piss. I guess if you like what the writer is putting out you give them a pass. Hickman could probably insult the entire fandom and many would give him a pass because they love the Krakoa era.

[JB]

A whole lot of nothing in this interview.

Yeah he clearly is not allowed to say much of anything and I'm cool with that. Big stories coming for Ev? Sign me up.

Love the preview art. Gambit and Rogue are adorable there.

[Lucyinthesky]

In the case of Lorna I agree with Angleman she needs her characterization more narrowed down because she often has been more of a suport character than a protagonist in her own right and that´s what some of us as her fans would like to see in the next X-men comic.

[AppleJ]

He seems awfully thin skinned at times, but otherwise a decent guy. And I enjoy most of his stuff. Marauders has been solid, and while I hate the whole Kid Cable concept, his writing on that book wasn’t bad per se. Maybe a little plodding at times, but overall not a terrible story. Just highly decompressed.

His UA run is still the high water mark of his Marvel work to date, though. At least IMO. Loved his Rogue and he wrote a great adult Cable too.

Same. You couldn’t pay me to get on Facebook or Twitter as a creator these days. Toxic environments that bring out the worst in people, both fans and sometimes creators too.

Yeah I've overall thought Mauraders has been alright and generally liked how Duggan handled Rogue in UA. Mainly it just doesn't feel like he wanted to do this interview. Maybe he's just very guarded about giving too much away? The answers are really short and super vague. It doesn't make for a great interview to read or tell me why I should be excited for this book, that's all.

Si's interview was fun and really intriguing by comparison, without really being too spoilery at all.