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Thread: Xmen Monday 106

  1. #46
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    @Sal and Lucy and Angle...

    And there-in lies a significant difference between some readers and writers.

    There are fans who are only fans of one specific character. Regardless of who else is in the book they're only there for that one character.
    We know their point of origin. How many books they've appeared in. The stories in which they're featured...
    Writers, even if they have their personal favourites, have to write from the perspective of being fans of a significant portion of the franchise if not the entire franchise, itself. They're scope of knowledge has to go beyond that one character and they will miss things that we as individual readers may think is important...it happens.

    While some readers are laser-focused on just their one favourite character, writers don't have that privilege. (Yes I am fully aware of the detractions made towards Duggan and Marauders...which I can understand, but with which I also don't agree)

    We can be fans of one character and be disappointed with how that character is being presented, but then in the same book, other fan-faves might be written to another reader's delight and expectations...that's just the nature of the product. And if you are only a fan of that one character, chances are you are going to be disappointed more often than delighted.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 05-17-2021 at 11:06 AM.
    My Summer rain. My rooftop in Japan. My quiet in the storm. *cries* Al Ewing is GOD...Praise His name! Uplift Him in song! Glorify His works!

  2. #47
    Spectacular Member Angleman70's Avatar
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    You’re right. However I have other characters I like on X-men. It can’t all be about Polaris all the time. If that were the case it would be problematic. There are mutants who also have their time to shine too. I agree that it’s impossible to please everyone when you are writing about a popular title such as the X-men. I can easily see the problem that lies on both sides. Do I love Scott and Jean? Absolutely, I also understand they have more popularity over other characters such as Angel, etc...that being said, I appreciate you pointing that out.

  3. #48
    Fantastic Member rdman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flameworthy View Post
    I'm cautiously optimistic to see what he will do with Sunfire. Most writers who have handled him have only really show us that he's a nationalistic, standoffish, pyrokinteic but I'm hoping Duggan will delve deeper than that and show us another side of Shiro.
    I am hoping they evolve his character or even retcon him from some World War 2 trope to a worldly Japanese person who has much more involved with his fellow mutants regardless if they are Japanese.
    After all, he was also an Avenger. So how did Logan convie Shiro to join a team that could be seen as American?

  4. #49
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Consider, their "misunderstanding" is just simply their "understanding" that we the fan-base just don't agree with?

    Right here, in this very selective community, we have very disparate understandings of who these characters are. eg. I will absolutely disagree with Salarta with regards to Lorna, but who am I to tell Salarta that they simply "misunderstand" what the writers intend? It's not my place to tell you that you're wrong, nor will I ever presume as such...just as it's not any reader's place to tell the writer or editors (who are writers and editors of these characters for a reason) that they are wrong and "misunderstand" the characters they're writing.

    And while you are not wrong to be wary based on your past experience...I am quite excited.
    We just don't know what the new writer will bring. Because it is going to be a new experience for both the writer and the readers.

    At the end of the day...the prerogative is always yours. As it is mine. And the writer's.
    Thanks I appreciate that. I think you make a very good point, it's certainly one to be considered - these past few days you and I have been on opposing ends of a few questions but you have made me really have to think my arguments through. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so the following isn't a claim about what you are saying, just a rhetorical exercise.

    What I'm getting at isn't that creative teams should be slaves to the fans, and certainly there's dissent even among fans, but I think there's a collaborative element to "continuity" and the fans can't be left aside from it. There's general consensus among fans, writers, and editors about these characters and if a creative team wants to go against the grain I do think it's incumbent on them to sell that perspective. It probably isn't accepted by everyone, but if it works for a plurality of the fans then it will have been worth the attempt.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  5. #50
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    I have a mixed bag of a response.

    We agree that a writer can't please everyone. They have to focus on doing the best job they can. I take that as meaning care put into doing well by the character, bearing their history and past development in mind. Sometimes certain periods do need to be disregarded - largely if those periods ignored important history and past development. Within this scope, I think fans of a character can play a vital role.

    I stress fans of a character. Not fans of a franchise, or fans of connected characters. Because what a fan of a franchise or other character thinks is best can be very different from what a fan of that character sees. Franchise fans can be willing to sacrifice perception of a character for the "greater good" of the franchise. Same with fans of other characters.

    When I say perception of a character, I don't mean "they can never do anything wrong or have no faults." Every character does bad things and has faults. The trick is depicting it well. If we took an outside view of Wandavision, Wanda's an irredeemable monster for what she put the people of Westview through. The show emphasized her feelings and perspective tied in with those actions, allowing the audience to understand her. Lorna running from the Sentinel attack on Genosha was itself technically a fault - she abandoned people who needed her. But we saw her perspective which provided understanding.

    Fans of a character can be useful because they're aware of the history. It doesn't mean every single thing has to be specially tailored exclusively to those fans. Especially on a team book. A team book can't be written with a goal of catering to just one character's fans. But fans can still serve as a guidepost of sorts.

    That said, there is the "under the purview of their editor(s)" wrinkle. It goes both ways. Ideal is both good writer and good editor. In the case of a good writer and bad editor, a writer can only do so much but must ultimately do what the editor - effectively their boss - wants. With a bad writer and good editor, the editor may be able to direct the writer in a positive direction but there's only so much that editor can do before it becomes backseat writing and the writer may as well quit. I'm not making any statements about the X-Men book when I say this. I'm speaking in very broad generalities. More of a philosophical argument.

    As said, a writer can only do the best they can. How they pursue their best and what opportunities and limitations they have in doing that are key factors.

    I am guarded but think X-Men #1 looks promising for Lorna both in terms of the vote outcome and the pages we've seen so far.
    Excellent post, I agree. Respect to the fans also means respect to the creative teams that came before, and that does sometimes means disregarding certain storylines.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    @Sal and Lucy and Angle...

    And there-in lies a significant difference between some readers and writers.

    There are fans who are only fans of one specific character. Regardless of who else is in the book they're only there for that one character.
    We know their point of origin. How many books they've appeared in. The stories in which they're featured...
    Writers, even if they have their personal favourites, have to write from the perspective of being fans of a significant portion of the franchise if not the entire franchise, itself. They're scope of knowledge has to go beyond that one character and they will miss things that we as individual readers may think is important...it happens.

    While some readers are laser-focused on just their one favourite character, writers don't have that privilege. (Yes I am fully aware of the detractions made towards Duggan and Marauders...which I can understand, but with which I also don't agree)

    We can be fans of one character and be disappointed with how that character is being presented, but then in the same book, other fan-faves might be written to another reader's delight and expectations...that's just the nature of the product. And if you are only a fan of that one character, chances are you are going to be disappointed more often than delighted.
    You are right Devaishwarya but given how many characters there are and so many editors and writers have to keep a logical storytelling, it´s why I think the fan can bring some valuable insight because they can make observations that may have scaped the writer and that can add to the characterization in a way that results in a better story
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 05-17-2021 at 12:13 PM.
    "To the X-men then, who don´t die the old fashioned way and no matter how hard we try, none of us die forever" Uncanny X-Men #270, Jean and Ororo

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  7. #52
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    You are right Devaishwarya but given how many characters there are and so many editors and writers have to keep a logical storytelling, it´s why I think the fan can bring some valuable insight because they can make observations that may have scaped the writer and that can add to the characterization in a way that results in a better story


    And that's just part of it.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angleman70 View Post
    Thanks. I agree with that to a point. There is not one Xman who hasn’t had it rough. In terms of Lorna that’s true as well or maybe more so depending on who you ask. We just want to see her shine. We have all seen characters like Cyclops and Jean had mega story after story where their characters were fairly developed over time. That hasn’t really happened for Polaris. Some hints here and there were given and some confusion as to her personality as a person have been underdeveloped. As to why? Some writers haven’t narrowed her character down. As for plot developments, yes absolutely! A hero can’t be a hero without having their struggles or rough patches. Again Lorna has had many of them. We just want our Polaris to be better, that’s all.
    Comic runs are much like art. The spectators of that art can praise or criticize the work, but they can not tell the artist what they should do (it isn't just bad form, it creates legal headaches). They can criticize the work, but not the artists honor and integrity for creative differences. That being said fans can and should be able to say in broad terms if they feel their favorite characters stories are on track or work in a story.

    When I say perception of a character, I don't mean "they can never do anything wrong or have no faults." Every character does bad things and has faults. The trick is depicting it well. If we took an outside view of Wandavision, Wanda's an irredeemable monster for what she put the people of Westview through. The show emphasized her feelings and perspective tied in with those actions, allowing the audience to understand her. Lorna running from the Sentinel attack on Genosha was itself technically a fault - she abandoned people who needed her. But we saw her perspective which provided understanding.
    The prospective and framing for Lorna was good there in that the audience could see her prospective and and why she in the end cracked and hid while people under her protection were slaughtered in the Sentinel attack. The same could be said in terms of Wanda and her thoughts and feelings in the show. The framing of Lorna's malice stuff in the 80s was weak because we were told things like Lorna and Malice were much alike and full of malice in their soul by Mr. Sinister, but there was a great deal of telling in that story and very little showing.
    Last edited by jmc247; 05-17-2021 at 12:52 PM.

  9. #54
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Thanks I appreciate that. I think you make a very good point, it's certainly one to be considered - these past few days you and I have been on opposing ends of a few questions but you have made me really have to think my arguments through. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so the following isn't a claim about what you are saying, just a rhetorical exercise.

    What I'm getting at isn't that creative teams should be slaves to the fans, and certainly there's dissent even among fans, but I think there's a collaborative element to "continuity" and the fans can't be left aside from it. There's general consensus among fans, writers, and editors about these characters and if a creative team wants to go against the grain I do think it's incumbent on them to sell that perspective. It probably isn't accepted by everyone, but if it works for a plurality of the fans then it will have been worth the attempt.
    I don't think we are left aside. With social media as prevalent and pervasive as it, we simply can't be disregarded.
    That said...
    The Editorial and Written creative intent has to take precedence over the vastly disparate readership's feelings and opinions.

    Remember, we are getting these stories long after they've been planned and written and illustrated...while we are here ripping a particular issue to shreds or praising it to high heaven...the creatives are already working on an issue due for publication in four months. They can't be overly concerned with an issue they've already moved on from or the general consensus of fans which in the best of times don't usually mesh with that of Editors or with that of the Writers. That's way too much creative energy not being directed towards what's truly important, the work, itself.

    For discussion's sake, if the general consensus is that up to this point, the entire Krakoa era has been rubbish, just how feasible would it be for HiX-Man and the X-Office to completely scrap everything he and the writers have planned and start anew?
    That will not happen.
    And while they may decide to course-correct on some details going forward (as they've no doubt done because of C-19 and other reasons) I can guarantee they will stick with their planned direction and they're not going to place a great deal of importance on the opinions of a relative few (no matter how vocal or pervasive). Claremont certainly didn't do it back in the day under a different Editorial when they also received heaping amounts of written mail both positive and negative. They're certainly not going do so now, because of Twitter.

    Yes, we have a platform and a presence and yes valuable insight, but...the Creatives have their personal job mandates which they have to follow to maintain the overall integrity of the whole. (And let's be honest...the various forums even here in CBR, do not make it easy or worth their while to take us seriously).
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 05-17-2021 at 12:48 PM.
    My Summer rain. My rooftop in Japan. My quiet in the storm. *cries* Al Ewing is GOD...Praise His name! Uplift Him in song! Glorify His works!

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member Diammandis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Duggan love to pander to the fans, he isnt convincing me
    Well its a good thing he isnt trying to convince you then
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  11. #56
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    I don't think we are left aside. With social media as prevalent and pervasive as it, we simply can't be disregarded.
    That said...
    The Editorial and Written creative intent has to take precedence over the vastly disparate readership's feelings and opinions.

    Remember, we are getting these stories long after they've been planned and written and illustrated...while we are here ripping a particular issue to shreds or praising it to high heaven...the creatives are already working on an issue due for publication in four months. They can't be overly concerned with an issue they've already moved on from or the general consensus of fans which in the best of times don't usually mesh with that of Editors or with that of the Writers. That's way too much creative energy not being directed towards what's truly important, the work, itself.

    For discussion's sake, if the general consensus is that up to this point, the entire Krakoa era has been rubbish, just how feasible would it be for HiX-Man and the X-Office to completely scrap everything he and the writers have planned and start anew?
    That will not happen.
    And while they may decide to course-correct on some details going forward (as they've no doubt done because of C-19 and other reasons) I can guarantee they will stick with their planned direction and they're not going to place a great deal of importance on the opinions of a relative few (no matter how vocal or pervasive). Claremont certainly didn't do it back in the day under a different Editorial when they also received heaping amounts of written mail both positive and negative. They're certainly not going do so now, because of Twitter.

    Yes, we have a platform and a presence and yes valuable insight, but...the Creatives have their personal job mandates which they have to follow to maintain the overall integrity of the whole. (And let's be honest...the various forums even here in CBR, do not make it easy or worth their while to take us seriously).
    Bad actors are giving the entire fandom a bad name, and maybe creative teams are taking that harder than they should.

    I understand that there's a point where fandom input can't or shouldn't effectuate changes in the narrative but to state fans are welcome to come along for the ride as long as the creative team is happy is not the correct approach either.

    I'm of the opinion that there have been instances where following job mandates has caused the loss of the overall integrity of a given work.

    To your final point, even here I would say there should be care on part of the fandom to express themselves appropriately and for creative teams to separate obvious bad actors out from the general fandom.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  12. #57
    Mighty Member Malachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    "Gerry: I don’t feel the pressure of fans, just my own expectations and that of my collaborators. If CB [Cebulski] and Jordan are happy, and my artists are happy, the fans have every shot at happiness. I can’t unmake a fan of Polaris, I can only make them not a fan of mine, and I’m only trying to deliver ideas to my artist to turn into moonshots. So, yes, sure, as you said. Lots of pressure in the Polaris business."

    My favourite answer in the entire interview.
    He's 100% correct.
    As a creative you really cannot be obsessed with how the fans will receive your work. Because even your best attempts will only please some readers, some of the times. And...you have to answer to your editors first and foremost as they're the ones paying your salary. Do your best and hope it's well-received.

    It's unfortunate that many fans of specific characters like Lorna, Jean, Scott, Storm, Rogue etc. are very rarely ever open to that "shot of happiness". Long before stories are published they have pre-conceived notions and judgments and personal, individual wants and expectations that no writer can fully meet or live up to, ever...and they end up resentful and disappointed.
    Any writer needs to surround themselves with people who's opinion they can trust. As we consumers usually follow a reviewer because we trust them to know the technical aspects and we know where they are coming from. So it doesn't matter if the review is positive or negative. As long as we know how to interputate it and use it.

    Duggan here is abdicating the responsibility by going with the workman answer. It's all buisness, we are all temporary and as long as the people who are giving me the oppertunity and paying are happy then I'm happy.

    There is no need to go to these black and white answers. It's all a spectrum. Surely you should trust the people you work for(or lie your ass off because the market is cruel and you can't afford to get on the bad side of Marvel). The same way you need to accept that you might be more wrong then you are right. It happens. Some ideas might sound great today but bad tomorrow. Or a year later.

    I love writers who own their work. Take responsibility when they made a misstake. We are humans. We all make them.

  13. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    And if you are only a fan of that one character, chances are you are going to be disappointed more often than delighted.
    I want to add one thing replying to this part.

    It's true that fans of a character will more often be disappointed. Fans see the potential, they see what's possible, and as such they can get their hopes too high and expect too much from people that haven't put in the same level of analysis as they have. Fandom does need to be tempered with some amount of grounding. At the same time, there are things a writer can do and be aware of to at least capture the most important elements. When people create reading lists for characters, they're usually not listing every single appearance and saying it's all essential reading. They're picking out what they determine to be the most important parts of that character's history to get at the essence of the character. I could say plenty about this (Marvel's "official" list sucks with Lorna), but I'll refrain.

    I've talked about Lorna's costumes before. I've always been on the side of wanting her to retain her iconic costume, or modernizing it. Kris Anka made an excellent conceptual modernization of it that I think gets at who she is. My reason for Lorna wanting to use her iconic costume is that as an icon, it's become very symbolic of Lorna herself and helps her stand out to casual readers. She might even need it for people to recognize it's her, in some cases. My general feeling is that even if it's not her iconic costume, she should at least keep her headgear, and ideally her cape too.

    That brings me to her costume for the new X-Men team. It's not her iconic costume. It doesn't have her headgear. Does that disappoint me? Of course. But here's the key: I'm still okay with it. People are aware that's Lorna thanks to the vote. She's on the flagship team, about to interact with other characters she hasn't spent much time with in decades. She's in a good situation where having her iconic costume isn't so important here. Furthermore, there are interesting points of comparison here between this new costume for Lorna and Jean's costume. It's not a team uniform, and it's not a copy-paste of Jean's look. It's a mixture of similarities and differences that are more than simply a change of color.

    I don't need Lorna looking exactly the way I want her to look. The same can go for stories too as long as there is a foundation of care for her value (not just lip service, I mean actually represented in her depiction) and respect for her history and past development. And I've been deliberately vague in saying that because representation of that can take many forms, including ones I have not thought of. I never thought gray/silver metal could be a good secondary color for Lorna until I saw Anka's redesign concept. Encoding a message in electromagnetism was one good concept for power use that never occurred to me. A lot of options for good writing exist that don't involve doing exactly what fans say. But it has to come from a positive place for the character. Fans gravitate to characters for a reason.
    I can also be reached on BlueSky and Tumblr. Avatar by kahlart.

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  14. #59
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Bad actors are giving the entire fandom a bad name, and maybe creative teams are taking that harder than they should.

    I understand that there's a point where fandom input can't or shouldn't effectuate changes in the narrative but to state fans are welcome to come along for the ride as long as the creative team is happy is not the correct approach either.

    I'm of the opinion that there have been instances where following job mandates has caused the loss of the overall integrity of a given work.

    To your final point, even here I would say there should be care on part of the fandom to express themselves appropriately and for creative teams to separate obvious bad actors out from the general fandom.
    We may be welcomed to go along for the ride...but I think it's understood that if the ride is not an enjoyable one we are free to seek other modes of transport.

    @the bolded...Yes eh!
    How many years did we have to suffer through the "brink of extinction/survival of the species" stories. I clocked out early on in that era and still...
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 05-17-2021 at 01:41 PM.
    My Summer rain. My rooftop in Japan. My quiet in the storm. *cries* Al Ewing is GOD...Praise His name! Uplift Him in song! Glorify His works!

  15. #60
    Embrace the fluff FluffyCyclopsRLZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeachFlavoredXanax View Post
    That Cyclops smiling panel is nightmare fuel
    Seconded. Holy crap, lol.

    Otherwise, it was one of those "I love everyone and it's going to be awesome, stop asking questions I can't answer" interviews. Oh well.

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