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  1. #406
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Has any Supreman media ever really gone "full Donner?"

  2. #407
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Has any Supreman media ever really gone "full Donner?"
    Superman Returns did.

  3. #408
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    Superman Returns did.
    Actually, even that had a bit of max Fleischer cartoons in them..
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  4. #409
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Has any Supreman media ever really gone "full Donner?"
    Superman Returns, to the point that it was one of the films main criticisms: not doing anything we haven't seen before.

    Snyder arguably managed to somehow rehash Donner while running in the opposite direction as much as possible. Dead Pa Kent, Ghost Dad from Space, Lex and Zod as antagonists, it was all there. Just with a grittier filter over it.

    This show looking to Kirby (with the Newskids) is at least a step in the right direction. Would be nice to see the Legion of Superheroes too.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 06-14-2021 at 11:39 AM.

  5. #410
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Romcoms in Western Animation are definitely a lot more rare compared to Eastern animation.
    True, however this does seem to be changing as cartoons are moving away from "just for boys" and more inclusivity with girls comprising a larger percentage of the demographics. While I wouldn't call them straight romcoms, certainly shows like Star vs the Forces of Evil and The Owl House and others have more elements of the genre then the cartoons I grew up with did. It's still a far cry from what is available in the Eastern genre, but it is an improvement, and I personally welcome it. I still want my action of course, but it's nice to get more variety of genres as a whole, and certainly it can help the action genre to have more elements to fall back on when the punching and kicking is done.

  6. #411
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I'm hoping and trusting the show doesn't go full Donner (thankfully doesn't seem they will), because the IP has needed to break free of that interpretation for a while now. It's holding Superman back because creators don't know how to break away from it, and the few times they do we get stuff like the DCEU which fell on its face after a rocky start with some potential. Even that one is just a rehash of Donner in some ways.

    I'm very sick of Donner and Snyder seemingly being our only two options (or three if we include Byrne, which brought some Donner stuff to the comics and in turn influences Snyder). Inspirations from Siegel and Shuster, Mort Weisinger, Otto Binder, Elliott Maggin and Morrison for the foundation before experimenting and trying out some new ideas would be far preferable than going back to the Donner well for the umpteenth time.
    I'd add Yang to the list of influences - honestly I think Smashes the Klan must be required reading going forward for all Superman creatives.
    For Morrison maybe just pop in the DVD or Blu-ray of All Star Superman. They're a writer whose ideas are great and the actual character of Superman they make I love, but I just can't get past their way of being purposely confusing in plot construction (I've only read two things by them, but that is enough).

  7. #412
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Superman Returns, to the point that it was one of the films main criticisms: not doing anything we haven't seen before.

    Snyder arguably managed to somehow rehash Donner while running in the opposite direction as much as possible. Dead Pa Kent, Ghost Dad from Space, Lex and Zod as antagonists, it was all there. Just with a grittier filter over it.

    This show looking to Kirby (with the Newskids) is at least a step in the right direction. Would be nice to see the Legion of Superheroes too.
    I wouldn't say Lex and Zod were intentional Donner homages because in context it made sense to use them (we can debate Lex's execution, but that's another thing). He didn't even have Zod say "kneel before Zod" at any appropriate moment which would've been a deliberate Donner homage.

    I think this show is probably just going to be like every other Superman media where it draws from a lot of different sources.

  8. #413
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I wouldn't say Lex and Zod were intentional Donner homages because in context it made sense to use them (we can debate Lex's execution, but that's another thing). He didn't even have Zod say "kneel before Zod" at any appropriate moment which would've been a deliberate Donner homage.

    I think this show is probably just going to be like every other Superman media where it draws from a lot of different sources.
    I donít think it was intentional either, itís just that Donner is ďdefaultĒ Superman for a lot of people. Snyder toyed with the idea of using Brainiac but ultimately went with Zod. If the idea was to do a clean break with the past, why? Why not do one of the biggest Superman villains we have yet to see on the big screen? Probably because Zod is an easier choice due to the Donner films already raising awareness of who he is. Why does Pa Kent need to die or why doesnít both Kents die? Because Pa died in the Donner film. Even the basic plot of MoS is a poor combo of the two Donner films. We spend a lot of time building up towards Clark putting on the suit, with scenes set in Smallville and Krypton just like the first Donner film, and then in the second half we jump to the second film where he stops Zodís invasion and thereís a focus on the romance between Clark and Lois. Lex in BvS is a camp Silver Age take with a full head of hair, similar to Hackman.

    The DNA of the Donner films is very much present in the storytelling structure. Itís just poorly done because changes made, such as making the Kents more selfish, makes the parts Snyder played straight nonsensical. Why is Clark a good person? Certainly not on account of his folks, they both tell him to look out for number 1. So the only answer is that heís a good person... well because he just is, because Superman is good, and that doesnít work when youíve deconstructed everything else.

    Despite my hopes to see other lesser used Superman Rogues, I must admit I wouldnít mind seeing Zod here. Heís never been really used in animation and I wouldnít mind seeing an adaption of New Krypton. Lex I hope isnít in this until S2 at the earliest, give me Brainiac as the Big Bad of S1.
    Last edited by Vordan; 06-14-2021 at 06:37 PM.
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  9. #414
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Despite my hopes to see other lesser used Superman Rogues, I must admit I wouldn’t mind seeing Zod here. He’s never been really used in animation and I wouldn’t mind seeing an adaption of New Krypton. Lex I hope isn’t in this until S2 at the earliest, give me Brainiac as the Big Bad of S1.
    I will be kind of amazed if Lex isn't in it from the start.

    I don't think he'll be a Big Bad but I can see him being a recurring antagonist and supporting character. Maybe a love rival for Clark over Lois if they want to go in that direction.

    I actually kind of wonder if they'll do a Maxima episode...I guess she's not the most feminist character, but considering their take here I'm kind of curious how they'd use her.

  10. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Romcoms in Western Animation are definitely a lot more rare compared to Eastern animation.
    What Romcoms are in Western animation? I canít think of any right now.
    "I love mankind...it's people I can't stand!!"

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  11. #416
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I will be kind of amazed if Lex isn't in it from the start.

    I don't think he'll be a Big Bad but I can see him being a recurring antagonist and supporting character. Maybe a love rival for Clark over Lois if they want to go in that direction.

    I actually kind of wonder if they'll do a Maxima episode...I guess she's not the most feminist character, but considering their take here I'm kind of curious how they'd use her.
    They’d probably go with the New 52 take of her being a lesbian who runs away because she doesn’t want to have to marry a husband given who is involved in the show lol.
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  12. #417
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    They’d probably go with the New 52 take of her being a lesbian who runs away because she doesn’t want to have to marry a husband given who is involved in the show lol.
    I don't know if this is really going to be "She-Ra with Superman" but it wouldn't surprise me, either.

  13. #418
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't know if this is really going to be "She-Ra with Superman" but it wouldn't surprise me, either.
    There are probably more restrictions given the higher profile of the IP, but Maxima is a lesser known character already so I wouldn’t be surprised if they heavily revamped her.
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  14. #419
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Theyíd probably go with the New 52 take of her being a lesbian who runs away because she doesnít want to have to marry a husband given who is involved in the show lol.
    I have so many ideas for Maxima and, sadly, I think the New 52 take is just kind of dull. There's a huge reservoir to pull from when Max is about that tradition instead of running from it because it presents the argument of Clark having an obligation to try and procreate and keep his race alive. Max is devoted to her heritage whereas Clark goes his own way mixing his heritage with his upbringing.

    He chooses Lois who he doesn't even know if he can have a child with. He chooses selfishly, to pick love over an obligation to try and continue his bloodline. I've talked a lot more about that in her thread, but to be succinct, there was a lot of potential to Maxima both with respect to her own character and Clark's.

    There's a lot there to deal with, but New 52 Max is basically a story about a teenager coming out of the closet to conservative parents. It's a good story and one that's worth telling, but compared to what you're losing it's just not unique enough to really do much with.

    New Max is just not as interesting. They have nothing left to do with her.

    I have no doubts they'd go with New 52 Max if we ever see her again, though.
    Last edited by Robanker; 06-15-2021 at 12:53 PM.

  15. #420
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I'd add Yang to the list of influences - honestly I think Smashes the Klan must be required reading going forward for all Superman creatives.
    For Morrison maybe just pop in the DVD or Blu-ray of All Star Superman. They're a writer whose ideas are great and the actual character of Superman they make I love, but I just can't get past their way of being purposely confusing in plot construction (I've only read two things by them, but that is enough).
    Agreed on Yang, good point!

    Any influence from All-Star no matter what the version is always good, but I'd vastly prefer the book. It's actually one of the more accessible of their books and is pretty straight forward. The back half of their Action Comics run went overboard on the craziness, but the origin arc in the first half was aces and should be the blueprint for any Superman origin movie.

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