Fantastic Four: True Story (spoiler accepted)

[CaptCleghorn]

In the actual '60s Marvel was neutral to indifferent to Vietnam (mostly because that was Lee's attitude at least officially, privately he did lean to supporting the Vietnam War it seems like). The Fantastic Four coming out against the war would have shunned them from public much in the way it did with MLK who spoke against the war when it was inconvenient and unpopular to do so.

I don't think the actual 60's comics were a good indicator of characters' beliefs on certain issues. Those stories were hampered by the Comics Code and were considerably less sophisticated with their content. I mention Johnny as he was the right age and he didn't go. It's possible his number didn't come up, or that strings were pulled. Nothing was said and I don't want to speculate on what the reactions and actions were without story support. It's probable that the FF, or any members coming out against the war would have hit their popularity. Like I said, the short scenes leave very little time for even a cursory mention of Viet Nam. It;s also possible that it will get mentioned in a later issue when more protesting and demostating happens.

[Digifiend]

Maybe Johnny's powers got him an exemption? He might have been considered too dangerous to deploy in Nam.

He wasn't called up in Spider-Man Life Story either.

[lefthanded]

I wonder if this ties into Spider-man Life Story at all, as Reed appears there, while a Peter Parker-type photographer is here at the wedding. I don't think they need to be in continuity at all though. Although Johnny and the Vietnam War seems like something that should be addressed, Spider-man Life Story already did a version of the storyline, so Marvel probably doesn't want to hit the same bits of history.

Really enjoyed this - it feels more like the Fantastic Four than what Slott is doing in the main series. Like others have said, I am really happy they didn't shoehorn Doctor Doom into this first issue.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I wonder if this ties into Spider-man Life Story at all, as Reed appears there, while a Peter Parker-type photographer is here at the wedding.

According to Russell it doesn't. This is a new and different continuity though I guess nothing we see here contradicts what we see in Life Story so far (the big thing would be Reed and Sue divorcing in Zdarsky's series but I doubt they'll take that route here).

[Iron Maiden]

Since this is supposed to be a celebration of the Fantastic Four, a divorce seems to be a non starter here. But Reed and Sue have gone through bumpy times. She did leave him for a while to go off and live with a cousin when Reed was forced to shut down Franklin for a while when his powers were increasing to a dangerous level.

[lefthanded]

Good to know. In Spider-man, Reed's divorce was just used as a prop for Peter to reflect on. Here, since the focus is on Fantastic Four, hopefully the focus remains on the family.

[CaptCleghorn]

Since this is supposed to be a celebration of the Fantastic Four, a divorce seems to be a non starter here. But Reed and Sue have gone through bumpy times. She did leave him for a while to go off and live with a cousin when Reed was forced to shut down Franklin for a while when his powers were increasing to a dangerous level.

I agree. Reed and Sue are arguably second to Clark and Lois for comic book couples. I do not expect it to go smoothly for them over the next fifty years, but I also don't expect a final divorce.

[Ravenstone]

[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;5547523]In the actual '60s Marvel was neutral to indifferent to Vietnam (mostly because that was Lee's attitude at least officially, privately he did lean to supporting the Vietnam War it seems like). The Fantastic Four coming out against the war would have shunned them from public much in the way it did with MLK who spoke against the war when it was inconvenient and unpopular to do so.

Um, that's not even remotely true. Iron Man's origin is intimately tied with the Vietnam War, and many of his early stories are all about battling the Communist Menace. There was also at least one Thor story in Journey into Mystery about Vietnam, and, IIRC, at least one Avengers story. As well. in Spider-Man, Flash Thompson actually enlisted, and his service was part of the storyline for some time. And that's just what I can remember off the top of my head. Therefore, it's not really fair to say that Marvale was "neutral or indifferent" about the Vietnam war. You might have a better chance saying this about DC at the time.

As for Stan's personal feelings about the war, it's hard to know now that he's gone, but he pushed a very liberal agenda in the early Marvel books, especially in his Soapbox column, so it seems presumptuous to assume he was in favor of America's involvement in Vietnam.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Therefore, it's not really fair to say that Marvale was "neutral or indifferent" about the Vietnam war.

So Marvel was Pro-US Intervention on the Vietnam War, is that what you are suggesting?

As for Stan's personal feelings about the war, it's hard to know now that he's gone,

There's a new biography by Abraham Riesman that scrutinizes and goes behind the scenes on Stan Lee's real opinions and he was a fairly middle-of-the-road centrist which at that time meant being in favor of the Vietnam War.

...but he pushed a very liberal agenda in the early Marvel books, especially in his Soapbox column,

Middle-of-the-road centrism made him come off as radical against DC, so there's that. Merely addressing and acknowledging real-life stuff in the '60s in a superhero genre story was a new and daring thing at the time.

...so it seems presumptuous to assume he was in favor of America's involvement in Vietnam.

Your own examples which you proffered suggests that Marvel Comics were more consistently Pro-Involvement.

[Oberon]

If you lived in the era, most of mainstream America thought it was a dominoes thing, because that is how the media nd government sold it.

If we don't take Vietnam, they'll be after us; lol.

I had a small amount of Catholic grade school in the mid to late '60s; only nuns seemed to talk about Vietnam as wrong.

But by the early '70s, Junior High, High School, the mood had swung in schools.

I had a hippie teacher in '72 and he was the talk of the school and most of the parents (big HS, nearly 600 in graduating class.

It took a while from the '60s, for the mood to swing.

[Iron Maiden]

If you lived in the era, most of mainstream America thought it was a dominoes thing, because that is how the media nd government sold it.

If we don't take Vietnam, they'll be after us; lol.

I had a small amount of Catholic grade school in the mid to late '60s; only nuns seemed to talk about Vietnam as wrong.

But by the early '70s, Junior High, High School, the mood had swung in schools.

I had a hippie teacher in '72 and he was the talk of the school and most of the parents (big HS, nearly 600 in graduating class.

It took a while from the '60s, for the mood to swing.

Yes, this is how I remember things. Both JFK and then LBJ were a bit hawkish on SE Asia and I also recall the domino theory being tossed around in regards to Viet Nam. From the JFK presidential library: Senator Kennedy's remarks at the Conference on Viet Nam

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Yes, this is how I remember things. Both JFK and then LBJ were a bit hawkish on SE Asia and I also recall the domino theory being tossed around in regards to Viet Nam. From the JFK presidential library: Senator Kennedy's remarks at the Conference on Viet Nam

That's the thing when you put superheroes against actual history. Superheroes are supposed to be mainstream acceptable and beloved figures but what is mainstream, and crucially what is excluded from the mainstream, changes.

WATCHMEN had superheroes in the backstory like Minutemen actually voice the racism, sexism, and homophobia that was mainstream and acceptable at the time. Likewise, Dr. Manhattan and the Comedian participate in the Vietnam War and commit some war crimes over there. Moore was pointing out that in real life, political figures, celebrities and other admired figures did voice racist and sexist views in the 30's and 40s, and that would surely be the case for actual superheroes otherwise they would be seen as commies and radicals and ostracized from society. Likewise, in publication history, many of the comics of the 30s and 40s and 50s, from DC, Fawcett and everyone had superheroes behaving in a racist-imperialist way. Like Superman went back in time and stole land from the Native Americans (https://www.cbr.com/that-time-superm...st-metropolis/). That was in continuity to Silver Age at a time when Superman was at the zenith of his popularity and cultural influence in comics.

Chip Zdarsky in SPIDER-MAN: LIFE STORY had Iron Man openly be a Cold Warrior and support intervention in Vietnam while having Captain America "loyal to nothing but the dream" being true to his ethos which meant going rogue and defending the Vietnamese people from imperialism on both sides. If Marvel had real guts and had Captain America have an in-character response in the 1960s to Vietnam, that's what Steve Rogers would do morally but Stan Lee or Martin Goodman would never have published that in the 1960s, heck nobody would have. In Marvel's stable, only Jack Kirby was against the Vietnam War.

So I think Fantastic Four Life Story if it wanted to be political could have had the Fantastic Four break apart over Vietnam with Thing (the voice of Kirby) opposing the war while Reed and Sue are pro-war (both of them being coded Republicans in the 1960s) and Johnny being the "apolitical" teenage guy who doesn't think about how his lifestyle is supported by US imperialism, but that would probably not be fun.

[Crimz]

That's the thing when you put superheroes against actual history. Superheroes are supposed to be mainstream acceptable and beloved figures but what is mainstream, and crucially what is excluded from the mainstream, changes.

WATCHMEN had superheroes in the backstory like Minutemen actually voice the racism, sexism, and homophobia that was mainstream and acceptable at the time. Likewise, Dr. Manhattan and the Comedian participate in the Vietnam War and commit some war crimes over there. Moore was pointing out that in real life, political figures, celebrities and other admired figures did voice racist and sexist views in the 30's and 40s, and that would surely be the case for actual superheroes otherwise they would be seen as commies and radicals and ostracized from society. Likewise, in publication history, many of the comics of the 30s and 40s and 50s, from DC, Fawcett and everyone had superheroes behaving in a racist-imperialist way. Like Superman went back in time and stole land from the Native Americans (https://www.cbr.com/that-time-superm...st-metropolis/). That was in continuity to Silver Age at a time when Superman was at the zenith of his popularity and cultural influence in comics.

Chip Zdarsky in SPIDER-MAN: LIFE STORY had Iron Man openly be a Cold Warrior and support intervention in Vietnam while having Captain America "loyal to nothing but the dream" being true to his ethos which meant going rogue and defending the Vietnamese people from imperialism on both sides. If Marvel had real guts and had Captain America have an in-character response in the 1960s to Vietnam, that's what Steve Rogers would do morally but Stan Lee or Martin Goodman would never have published that in the 1960s, heck nobody would have. In Marvel's stable, only Jack Kirby was against the Vietnam War.

So I think Fantastic Four Life Story if it wanted to be political could have had the Fantastic Four break apart over Vietnam with Thing (the voice of Kirby) opposing the war while Reed and Sue are pro-war (both of them being coded Republicans in the 1960s) and Johnny being the "apolitical" teenage guy who doesn't think about how his lifestyle is supported by US imperialism, but that would probably not be fun.

I don't see where Reed and especially Sue where coded as Republican.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I don't see where Reed and especially Sue where coded as Republican.

In Fantastic Four#1, when Reed is pitching the rocket heist and everyone's skeptical, Susan gets Thing on board by appeal to his masculinity and patriotic triumphalism.

Susan Storm was always coded as a kind of '50s homemaker in the original FF run, and there's always been a certain strident attitude of moral self-righteousness around her. You can see that in the Annual issue of 2014 by James Robinson where she basically invades and trashes Latveria over her zealous suspicions about Valeria's closeness to Uncle Doom. And of course her behavior in Chip Zdarsky's FF/X-Men is essentially that of a classic Karen who wants to "speak to the manager" of Krakoa.

Of course by Republican I mean '60s New York Rockefeller Republican...which is to say the now-extinct liberal-centrist wing of the Republican party that no longer exists. So Susan Storm could be a Republican and not be totally regressive. Reed I think would have been a fan of Eisenhower and his administration's road-works project and sponsoring of ARPA. So that might make him sympathetic to Ike. And you know he was raised in the suburbs.

[Crimz]

In Fantastic Four#1, when Reed is pitching the rocket heist and everyone's skeptical, Susan gets Thing on board by appeal to his masculinity and patriotic triumphalism.

Susan Storm was always coded as a kind of '50s homemaker in the original FF run, and there's always been a certain strident attitude of moral self-righteousness around her. You can see that in the Annual issue of 2014 by James Robinson where she basically invades and trashes Latveria over her zealous suspicions about Valeria's closeness to Uncle Doom. And of course her behavior in Chip Zdarsky's FF/X-Men is essentially that of a classic Karen who wants to "speak to the manager" of Krakoa.

Of course by Republican I mean '60s New York Rockefeller Republican...which is to say the now-extinct liberal-centrist wing of the Republican party that no longer exists. So Susan Storm could be a Republican and not be totally regressive. Reed I think would have been a fan of Eisenhower and his administration's road-works project and sponsoring of ARPA. So that might make him sympathetic to Ike. And you know he was raised in the suburbs.

Wasn't the things with the Red Scare was that it was huge. And this is the only moment she ever showed anything like it. Issue 1 was also where Lee/Kirby were still figuring out the characters, Ben's personality is nothing like the gruff man with the heart of gold we know today.

Val living with Doom was a stupid story in terms of characterization. Its completely out of character for them to leave her with the man who possessed her and literally sent her brother to hell. Him being allowed anywhere near those kids makes zero sense. Sue going to Latveria to get Val back (while Sue's emotions are being manipulated by Psycho man) makes no sense as being Republican coded. It's a bad example.

The recent X-Men/Fantastic Four is also a bad example as saying you don't want your underage child to be taken to an island you can't access isn't unreasonable. Any parent would have the same problems with it.

Then there are the many times that can interpreted as her being "Liberal coded". The very story this thread is about has a big one.