Fantastic Four: True Story (spoiler accepted)

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Wasn't the things with the Red Scare was that it was huge. And this is the only moment she ever showed anything like it. Issue 1 was also where Lee/Kirby were still figuring out the characters, Ben's personality is nothing like the gruff man with the heart of gold we know today.

Fact is that it's there for the taking. Susan Storm's profile -- blonde, matronly, suburban housewife -- is almost a platonic ideal of a female conservative voter.

Val living with Doom was a stupid story in terms of characterization. Its completely out of character for them to leave her with the man who possessed her and literally sent her brother to hell.

It was completely out of character for Doom to possess her and send her brother to hell given that he midwifed Val's birth and is his godfather...but hey Mark Waid gonna Mark Waid with his poor misinterpretations of creator intentions and proprietary relationship to his '60s comics reading.

Sue going to Latveria to get Val back (while Sue's emotions are being manipulated by Psycho man) makes no sense as being Republican coded. It's a bad example.

A white American going to a foreign country and making a scene and expecting the world and rules of that country to bend around her is kinda classic neocon American attitude. Not quite as brazen as "Does this A stand for France" by Millar's wretched Ultimates comics, but in the ballpark.

The recent X-Men/Fantastic Four is also a bad example as saying you don't want your underage child to be taken to an island you can't access isn't unreasonable.

Attacking people who come visit when they walk down a street (which Susan Storm does not in fact own) and later using powers first and then asking questions and then fulminating about Krakoan values and so on, is again classic.

Then there are the many times that can interpreted as her being "Liberal coded". The very story this thread is about has a big one.

Yes and my post has issues because it's kind of whitewashing and misrepresenting the comics of that period and potentially give a false idea that these characters back then were shining liberal icons and on the right side and so on. Fantastic Four in the 1960s never had any characters platform having such big shining liberal moments. The big liberal moment in the Stan Lee era was Amazing Spider-Man #91-92.

[CaptCleghorn]

The political leanings of the members of the team are certainly worthy of discussion. But it's clear that what Lee and Kirby wrote them as originally are far from the characters Russell is writing 60 years later. Ben as the voice of Kirby is probably as accurate and fair as you can get. Johnny's political leanings I'd imagine would be the same as the sign that attractive woman is holding. Reed and Sue are, IMO, considerably more complicated. The Life Story journey starts at the rocket launch in 1961. Where they go politically from there is up to Mark Russell and we will certainly be chiming in on our opinions. But 616 Reed and Sue are totally different and changing animals. The rocket launched while JFK was in office. The sliding timeline brought that flight through 40+ years. The attitudes in 1961 would be different than in 1971, 1981, 1991, or 2001. Updatings of the origin have had the commie line rewritten. What would the politics of Reed and Sue be if they were launching the rocket today?

There's no easy answer, but definitely lots of possible conversation.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The political leanings of the members of the team are certainly worthy of discussion.

As a fun exercise because ultimately these are corporate products intended to entertain people. That includes Doom as well. In real life, Doctor Doom would be insupportable but it's because of his artifice and over-the-top nature that we can kind of sentimentalize and romanticize him.

The Life Story journey starts at the rocket launch in 1961. Where they go politically from there is up to Mark Russell and we will certainly be chiming in on our opinions. But 616 Reed and Sue are totally different and changing animals. The rocket launched while JFK was in office. The sliding timeline brought that flight through 40+ years. The attitudes in 1961 would be different than in 1971, 1981, 1991, or 2001. Updatings of the origin have had the commie line rewritten. What would the politics of Reed and Sue be if they were launching the rocket today?

There's no easy answer, but definitely lots of possible conversation.

I think that Reed and Sue would have become lifelong democrats by the mid-70s but basically centrist types. They would never be Pro-Bernie but support HRC or Biden over Bernie and vote for plutocratic mayoral candidates (like Bloomberg). Sue in private would probably voice opinions about AOC. Whereas Ben Grimm would totally have known Bernie from his Brooklyn childhood and hang out in the park complaining about gentrification and so on. Hickman framed Reed Richards as a kind of modern-day futurist, an extension of the kind of hubris and arrogance you see with tech guys, someone who refers to Columbus unironically as a great explorer but who ultimately is redeemed by his acknowledgement of his flaws and limitations, which is what leads him to finally "solve everything".

The rivalry between Reed and Doom has this basic class tension, you have the WASP guy who gets the American dream on a silver platter (basically the lifestyle David Byrne's "Once in a Lifetime" promises to listeners) and the Romani peasant immigrant who fails to assimilate into America. The general readership would more readily relate to Doom than they would to Reed, and that's why Doom in general is a more popular character than Reed himself.

[Crimz]

Fact is that it's there for the taking. Susan Storm's profile -- blonde, matronly, suburban housewife -- is almost a platonic ideal of a female conservative voter.



It was completely out of character for Doom to possess her and send her brother to hell given that he midwifed Val's birth and is his godfather...but hey Mark Waid gonna Mark Waid with his poor misinterpretations of creator intentions and proprietary relationship to his '60s comics reading.



A white American going to a foreign country and making a scene and expecting the world and rules of that country to bend around her is kinda classic neocon American attitude. Not quite as brazen as "Does this A stand for France" by Millar's wretched Ultimates comics, but in the ballpark.



Attacking people who come visit when they walk down a street (which Susan Storm does not in fact own) and later using powers first and then asking questions and then fulminating about Krakoan values and so on, is again classic.



Yes and my post has issues because it's kind of whitewashing and misrepresenting the comics of that period and potentially give a false idea that these characters back then were shining liberal icons and on the right side and so on. Fantastic Four in the 1960s never had any characters platform having such big shining liberal moments. The big liberal moment in the Stan Lee era was Amazing Spider-Man #91-92.

So the crux of your argument for all those moments are because she's blonde and white, even though we know that the context of both the Doom and X-Men situation...

[CaptCleghorn]

Yes and my post has issues because it's kind of whitewashing and misrepresenting the comics of that period and potentially give a false idea that these characters back then were shining liberal icons and on the right side and so on. Fantastic Four in the 1960s never had any characters platform having such big shining liberal moments. The big liberal moment in the Stan Lee era was Amazing Spider-Man #91-92.

There was more than you think.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

There was more than you think.

I don't think FF#52-53 paints such a rosy picture of the Four, as you think.

This is Susan Storm's reaction on arriving at Wakanda.
Fantastic Four #52 - Susan Storm patronizing.jpg

There's definitely an element of condescension and patronizing in Susan's attitude to Wakandan tech. I mean she's been to Atlantis, to Attilan and other far-away places and yet the idea of an African kingdom having high technology is hard for her to grasp, which you know white people, amirite!

Granted, even Ben Grimm in this issue on first seeing the Wakandan emissary calls him "a refugee from Tarzan" and similar attitudes are voiced by Johnny Storm, so it's not just Susan, and I'd blame the dialogue on Stan Lee for these aspects. Of course the progressive part is T'Challa coming in busting heads and taking names but the sympathy is with him against the Four in terms of undermining the audience preconceptions.

[Crimz]

Lets also not forget this:

[CaptCleghorn]

I don't think FF#52-53 paints such a rosy picture of the Four, as you think.

This is Susan Storm's reaction on arriving at Wakanda.
Fantastic Four #52 - Susan Storm patronizing.jpg

There's definitely an element of condescension and patronizing in Susan's attitude to Wakandan tech. I mean she's been to Atlantis, to Attilan and other far-away places and yet the idea of an African kingdom having high technology is hard for her to grasp, which you know white people, amirite!

Granted, even Ben Grimm in this issue on first seeing the Wakandan emissary calls him "a refugee from Tarzan" and similar attitudes are voiced by Johnny Storm, so it's not just Susan, and I'd blame the dialogue on Stan Lee for these aspects. Of course the progressive part is T'Challa coming in busting heads and taking names but the sympathy is with him against the Four in terms of undermining the audience preconceptions.

You use current social standards to apply to stories a half century old. It's going to difficult to find examples that would stick out from the sixties assuming everyone is on a current frame of reference. The book was not carried in many southern areas and made a fuzz because of a black character. This was a time when William Shatner and Nichelle Nichols kissing was a major event. Petula Clark merely touching Harry Belafonte arm cause a huge stir. Timeframe is very important. Will and Grace was considered a novel show when it first broadcast but has since gotten criticism for its stereotypical characterization.

Going through with dialogue and characters' attitudes, I take Sue's comment as being locked more into western culture and technology. Is it provincial? Sure, but we also need to realize that the line sets the stage for a tech-heavy African kingdom not being seen for hundreds of years. There's something up. Ben and Johnny's lines can also be used to further push what is happening from what we'd normally expect. The story, its new characters, and the resulting franchise was an extremely progressive step. A few expository lines do not change that. One can analyze the dialogue and consider it a meta way to introduce us to the land we're about to visit.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Lets also not forget this:

On that issue, as Saladin Ahmed said on twitter:

"the Thing's working class Jewish radicalism > Mister Fantastic's bourgeois WASP liberalism send tweet"
https://twitter.com/saladinahmed/sta...594752/photo/1



So yeah, the Fantastic Four and especially Reed and Sue are constantly framed as patronizing white rubes who have a sheltered and protected view of the world.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

You use current social standards to apply to stories a half century old. It's going to difficult to find examples that would stick out from the sixties assuming everyone is on a current frame of reference. The book was not carried in many southern areas and made a fuzz because of a black character. This was a time when William Shatner and Nichelle Nichols kissing was a major event.

When did anything in FF in Lee-Kirby's run approach even the Star Trek moment in daring?

Going through with dialogue and characters' attitudes, I take Sue's comment as being locked more into western culture and technology. Is it provincial? Sure, but we also need to realize that the line sets the stage for a tech-heavy African kingdom not being seen for hundreds of years. There's something up. Ben and Johnny's lines can also be used to further push what is happening from what we'd normally expect. The story, its new characters, and the resulting franchise was an extremely progressive step. A few expository lines do not change that. One can analyze the dialogue and consider it a meta way to introduce us to the land we're about to visit.

I actually agree. My point is again that the Fantastic Four comics weren't especially progressive nor were the Four icons of progressive politics in the 1960s, and a FF:LS which shows Susan Storm as a civil rights activist misrepresents and distorts the nature of the content of the actual stories back then, when she (and Reed) came off as the least woke of the Four. You have rephrased my point but I don't see anything that contradicts or refutes it.

Aesthetically, some parts of the Fantastic Four did catch the zeitgeist as somewhat rebellious and refreshing against DC's stuff and being high powered odd adventures but ultimately when it came to counter-cultural hipness it was The Hulk (who unleashed his rage on the military-industrial complex) who they latched on to, and of course Doctor Strange (rather ironically) became a hero for hippies who saw his comics as acid-trips on page, and then above all Spider-Man who was always popular with African-American audiences who saw his persecution by police and media as a mirror for their own experiences. (The X-Men in the 1960s not so much being that they were a bunch of narcs until Claremont came along).

[CaptCleghorn]

On that issue, as Saladin Ahmed said on twitter:

"the Thing's working class Jewish radicalism > Mister Fantastic's bourgeois WASP liberalism send tweet"
https://twitter.com/saladinahmed/sta...594752/photo/1



So yeah, the Fantastic Four and especially Reed and Sue are constantly framed as patronizing white rubes who have a sheltered and protected view of the world.

Let's clarify what we're discussing here. Are we talking about the characters' actions in 1960s comics, or are we talking about the stories? Reed Richards being a condescending, privileged prick is far from a rare or controversial opinion. Sue Storm in the sixties was Suzie Homemaker and the definition of "the girl". However, the Hate Monger story is a progressive piece which does exhibit the "It CAN happen here, so be careful" threat. The worst that can be said of the story is that it was close to a Twilight Zone episode from earlier in the year with Dennis Hopper.

It's pretty clear All in the Family was a liberal show, but Archie Bunker was a conservative bigot. The same applies to the Fantastic Four comic and its characters in the sixties, although to a far lesser degree,

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Let's clarify what we're discussing here. Are we talking about the characters' actions in 1960s comics, or are we talking about the stories?

The characters.

The FF stories are primarily science fiction adventures so I'd say it's mostly apolitical, not regressive but not especially progressive and mostly centered from the perspective of white-bread America (Reed and Sue).

Reed Richards being a condescending, privileged prick is far from a rare or controversial opinion. Sue Storm in the sixties was Suzie Homemaker and the definition of "the girl". However, the Hate Monger story is a progressive piece which does exhibit the "It CAN happen here, so be careful" threat.

It's wrapped in genre and B-movie science specifics and politically it's all over the place.

Like apparently SHIELD is helping to bring democracy (lol) in San Gusto and the Hate Monger is unleashing civil war undermining their efforts so it's basically glorifying US military intervention by presenting a threat from its right. When in reality USA allied with crazy right-wing extremists to subvert and/or destroy democracies and erect dictatorships all through the 1950s, '60s, '70s and so on. So politically it's kind of toothless and rosy. Not to mention that when Hatemonger fires his ray on the Four, they basically erupt into petty grievances which confuses general dislike with actual racial hatred when that's not the same thing.

The same applies to the Fantastic Four comic and its characters in the sixties, although to a far lesser degree,

I agree, it's just that I don't think there's warrant to paint Sue as a Civil Rights activist. That feels like sanding off the rough edges. Imagine someone reading Fantastic Four Life Story and then thinking wow, FF comics in the '60s had them support civil rights, and then read the original comics and find none of that there.

[CaptCleghorn]

When did anything in FF in Lee-Kirby's run approach even the Star Trek moment in daring?



I actually agree. My point is again that the Fantastic Four comics weren't especially progressive nor were the Four icons of progressive politics in the 1960s, and a FF:LS which shows Susan Storm as a civil rights activist misrepresents and distorts the nature of the content of the actual stories back then, when she (and Reed) came off as the least woke of the Four. You have rephrased my point but I don't see anything that contradicts or refutes it.

Aesthetically, some parts of the Fantastic Four did catch the zeitgeist as somewhat rebellious and refreshing against DC's stuff and being high powered odd adventures but ultimately when it came to counter-cultural hipness it was The Hulk (who unleashed his rage on the military-industrial complex) who they latched on to, and of course Doctor Strange (rather ironically) became a hero for hippies who saw his comics as acid-trips on page, and then above all Spider-Man who was always popular with African-American audiences who saw his persecution by police and media as a mirror for their own experiences. (The X-Men in the 1960s not so much being that they were a bunch of narcs until Claremont came along).

I can't argue that Life Story isn't vastly different in tone than the original Lee/Kirby stories. It's Mark Russell who has done some very politically and socially motivated work for DC. Were the characters written differently given the times and even the Comics Code? Sure. I agree with you on the personalities of the Four not being liberal or progressive. They are probably one of the most conservative bunches of Marvel casts. But their fame and notoriety came from not what they were, but how they were handled. They were far less unrealistic than other hero stories (Lois thinks Clark is Superman, take 548). Russell's take is one other writers have done which is to write the sixties with a current view point. The characters, especially Sue, have changed with society's maturing of attitudes. We're more on the same page than we think, and I enjoy finding and discussing differences of opinion.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I can't argue that Life Story isn't vastly different in tone than the original Lee/Kirby stories. It's Mark Russell who has done some very politically and socially motivated work for DC. Were the characters written differently given the times and even the Comics Code? Sure. I agree with you on the personalities of the Four not being liberal or progressive. They are probably one of the most conservative bunches of Marvel casts. But their fame and notoriety came from not what they were, but how they were handled. They were far less unrealistic than other hero stories (Lois thinks Clark is Superman, take 548). Russell's take is one other writers have done which is to write the sixties with a current view point. The characters, especially Sue, have changed with society's maturing of attitudes. We're more on the same page than we think, and I enjoy finding and discussing differences of opinion.

Yeah I see that we are on the same page.

It's just Zdarsky in his Spider-Man Life Story was actually addressing how characters would behave in actual '60s context and how that would affect and transform them.

Whereas Russell's Life Story feels superficial comparatively.

What I liked in the issue is the use of "This Man, This Monster" and kind of welding that to FF's rocket heist, and Thing's issues. That part was well done but actual history not so much.

[Crimz]

On that issue, as Saladin Ahmed said on twitter:

"the Thing's working class Jewish radicalism > Mister Fantastic's bourgeois WASP liberalism send tweet"
https://twitter.com/saladinahmed/sta...594752/photo/1



So yeah, the Fantastic Four and especially Reed and Sue are constantly framed as patronizing white rubes who have a sheltered and protected view of the world.

But doesn't this contradict your statement of them being Republican coded in the 60s? It's now gone from Republican to white liberalism.