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  1. #1186
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think she looked like a chump in the animated movie adaption if only because she held her own against Doomsday better than most of the other team did, and I liked the effect of her hair finally coming loose, but that's just me (I also think setting up Doomsday being near unstoppable until Superman fights him and has to basically sacrifice himself is effective, but to each their own).
    Yeah, it's great if you're a Superman fan lol.

    Just shows how meaningless "Superman's stronger but she's more skilled" talking point fans try to use is.

  2. #1187
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Yeah, it's great if you're a Superman fan lol.

    Just shows how meaningless "Superman's stronger but she's more skilled" talking point fans try to use is.
    I mean, he died at the end, so...

  3. #1188
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, he died at the end, so...
    Died as a hero and the only one that could stop doomsday. WW was like usual, shown as not good enough for the task, if SM can't, then WW even less. Her skills and godly powers mean nothing.

  4. #1189
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Yeah, it's great if you're a Superman fan lol.

    Just shows how meaningless "Superman's stronger but she's more skilled" talking point fans try to use is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, he died at the end, so...
    Yeah, it's not like Superman ever makes the Doomsday thing look effortless, like he did with Steppenwolf in the DCEU.

    It literally kills him.

  5. #1190
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    Died as a hero and the only one that could stop doomsday. WW was like usual, shown as not good enough for the task, if SM can't, then WW even less. Her skills and godly powers mean nothing.
    It literally cost him his life and 100% everything he had. I don't think it needs to be a feat contest. He probably wouldn't have been able to do it without Lois there either.

  6. #1191

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    Personally, I don't find Diana lasting slightly longer against Doomsday than everyone else much of a consolation prize. In general, I'm not a fan of any story where Wonder Woman's role boils down to: "Know your place and wait for Superman."

    And I'd argue Doomsday really doesn't need to get established as a threat by flattening the Justice League exactly because he goes on to beat Superman to death with his bare hands. I would think that in itself would be enough to prove how dangerous he is.

    But, really, it just comes down to the fact Doomsday is a garbage character and the Death part of The Death & Return of Superman is really weak.
    As much as DC tries to tout it as the ultimate depiction of Superman's heroism and nobility, it's literally him and a mindless rage-monster punching each other to death. It's the heroes uselessly throwing themselves at a brick wall, just for Clark to do it himself and die when the wall falls on him. No one comes out of this story looking good.

    It might not be so bad if there was a compelling reason (or any reason really) why Superman and ONLY Superman can fight & defeat Doomsday. But it really is just punching him really, really hard until he falls down.
    And for some reason, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and dozens of other heroes (some of whom are supposed to be on par with Superman themselves) can't punch Doomsday hard enough together, where Clark can do it alone.

    I don't want to get too side-tracked into a discussion about Doomsday and the Death of Superman since this a Wonder Woman forum, but if DC is going to keep trotting him out and rehashing this crummy story, I really wish future adaptations would take a page from the DCAU's handling of it. As I said, it added genuine drama and tension without throwing Wonder Woman (or anyone else) under the bus.

    There's not much I'll give the Justice League Unlimited writers credit for when it comes to Diana, but I thought they did right by her in that episode.

  7. #1192
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, he died at the end, so...
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yeah, it's not like Superman ever makes the Doomsday thing look effortless, like he did with Steppenwolf in the DCEU.

    It literally kills him.
    I was taking more of a pot shot at the idea people like to promulgate that "Superman's stronger but she's more skilled, so that's why she's weaker than him". So going with that WW should be as effective as fighting a mindless walking rock monster as "unskilled Superman" should be.

  8. #1193
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I was taking more of a pot shot at the idea people like to promulgate that "Superman's stronger but she's more skilled, so that's why she's weaker than him". So going with that WW should be as effective as fighting a mindless walking rock monster as "unskilled Superman" should be.
    Base strength isn't everything but would you have rather Diana be the one that died fighting? Because that would be the alternative.

    I just don't think in the context of how it was depicted she came off so much the lesser because she didn't finish nor get finished by Doomsday.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    Personally, I don't find Diana lasting slightly longer against Doomsday than everyone else much of a consolation prize. In general, I'm not a fan of any story where Wonder Woman's role boils down to: "Know your place and wait for Superman."

    And I'd argue Doomsday really doesn't need to get established as a threat by flattening the Justice League exactly because he goes on to beat Superman to death with his bare hands. I would think that in itself would be enough to prove how dangerous he is.

    But, really, it just comes down to the fact Doomsday is a garbage character and the Death part of The Death & Return of Superman is really weak.
    As much as DC tries to tout it as the ultimate depiction of Superman's heroism and nobility, it's literally him and a mindless rage-monster punching each other to death. It's the heroes uselessly throwing themselves at a brick wall, just for Clark to do it himself and die when the wall falls on him. No one comes out of this story looking good.

    It might not be so bad if there was a compelling reason (or any reason really) why Superman and ONLY Superman can fight & defeat Doomsday. But it really is just punching him really, really hard until he falls down.
    And for some reason, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and dozens of other heroes (some of whom are supposed to be on par with Superman themselves) can't punch Doomsday hard enough together, where Clark can do it alone.

    I don't want to get too side-tracked into a discussion about Doomsday and the Death of Superman since this a Wonder Woman forum, but if DC is going to keep trotting him out and rehashing this crummy story, I really wish future adaptations would take a page from the DCAU's handling of it. As I said, it added genuine drama and tension without throwing Wonder Woman (or anyone else) under the bus.

    There's not much I'll give the Justice League Unlimited writers credit for when it comes to Diana, but I thought they did right by her in that episode.
    I think it's more just pushing himself past his limits to fight something for the sake of others (which Diana would have too) that's meant to come off as heroic rather than the slugfest, as well as the ultimate sacrifice of his life in doing so, although as far as slugfests go I think it was pretty memorable.

    I just don't think the actual execution made Diana feel so lesser when she still looked pretty awesome to me and Superman still got wrecked. But that's just me.

  9. #1194
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Base strength isn't everything but would you have rather Diana be the one that died fighting? Because that would be the alternative.
    No, just what Guy_McNights said is DCAU actually had a better take on it for a story that isn't all that good.

  10. #1195
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    No, just what Guy_McNights said is DCAU actually had a better take on it for a story that isn't all that good.
    Personally I feel the DCAU take was less impactful because they wouldn't actually kill Superman off through it, so it takes some of the weight of the fight out of it, but your mileage may vary.

  11. #1196
    Astonishing Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    As much as I rag on the DCAU's depiction of Wonder Woman, I do have to commend how they handled her during their big Superman/Doomsday brawl episode.

    Unlike most depictions, where Diana's only there to get crushed along with every other hero, she's instead evacuating civilians and kept away from the actual fight. And I really liked that multiple times through the fight she really wants to stop and help Clark, but he insists she focus on getting people to safety. Even though this wasn't a 'Death of Superman' story, it added good tension and conflict where he's fighting for his life against something that could kill him, and Diana desperately wants to help and could probably turn the tide if she did, but can't.

    It makes me wish that was more of the default/accepted plot of Death of Superman rehashes, as opposed to everybody gets wrecked until Superman swoops in to fight Doomsday alone.
    You could even develop it into a side-arc for her where she feels like she let him down and questions whether she made the right choice helping civilians instead of fighting by Clark's side. Then she can play a part in his revival, bringing her closure. Like I said...better than getting her ass kicked, going to the funeral, and doing nothing for the rest of the story.

    Anyway, props to the DCAU creators for doing a Superman/Doomsday fight that had actual tension and didn't make Wonder Woman look like a chump.
    The fact that she was a jobber in almost every other movie in that animated universe makes her poor showing against Doomsday even worse. She even gets to be mind-controlled twice so that another hero can free her with the lasso. It was actually more effective against her than against any of the villains

  12. #1197
    Still only crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Sounds like me and some other posters are on to something with respect to Wonder Woman's 'status' to the rest of the league. She is more 'skilled' but how did that help her against Doomsday? Her magical, indestructible sword (assuming that) is easily broken by Doomsday. Her so called skill and speed no match for the strength and speed of Doomsday.

    Yup, they respect the hell out of Diana. This was also her nu52 origin with Zeus as her father, guess that didn't help her much. But gee...she lasted longer than other league members. What a consolation prize!

    How long did Aquaman last against Doomsday, because they made sure to let us know in the DCAU and in the Justice Society movie that he was superior to Wonder Woman. He should have lasted longer than her based on his feats against her.

  13. #1198
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yeah, it's not like Superman ever makes the Doomsday thing look effortless, like he did with Steppenwolf in the DCEU.

    It literally kills him.
    He is the only one that can take the monster down. None of the other so called comparable to Superman beings like WW and MMH could do the same. And the so called not as strong as SM but very close to him, and much better fighter with unbreakable magic gear and superior reflexes WW was yet again useless. Her ''near'' SM strength level, allegedly best melee fighter of DC status, superior reflexes and all. She was useless and looked like just any other typical and generic brick that is put in her place until SM gets there.

  14. #1199
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It literally cost him his life and 100% everything he had. I don't think it needs to be a feat contest. He probably wouldn't have been able to do it without Lois there either.
    The point is as usual. That WW is all lipservice. She wasn't shown close to SM strength. And the so called amazing skills, superior combat speed and magic unbreakable gear that allegedly would make a difference against a physically stronger foe, were yet again useless and irrelevant. The '' she is more skilled'' argument that some people here love to use means nothing. Because her ''amazing'' skills never make a difference in 99% of her battles. Whenever she faces somebody stronger, she goes down. Her skills don't make a difference, her gear doesn't make a difference, her ''superior'' combat speed doesn't make a diffference. WW only gets empty lipservice. She never does anyting big with all the raw power that she is supposed to have according to DC. And with all the amazin martial arts that she is supposed to have according to DC. Same for her gear. All lipservice and no actual showing.

  15. #1200
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    Sounds like me and some other posters are on to something with respect to Wonder Woman's 'status' to the rest of the league. She is more 'skilled' but how did that help her against Doomsday? Her magical, indestructible sword (assuming that) is easily broken by Doomsday. Her so called skill and speed no match for the strength and speed of Doomsday.

    Yup, they respect the hell out of Diana. This was also her nu52 origin with Zeus as her father, guess that didn't help her much. But gee...she lasted longer than other league members. What a consolation prize!

    How long did Aquaman last against Doomsday, because they made sure to let us know in the DCAU and in the Justice Society movie that he was superior to Wonder Woman. He should have lasted longer than her based on his feats against her.
    If I remember right Doomsday just tossed Aquaman aside like he was nothing.

    Even Superman basically got the @#$% kicked out of him and was only able to basically commit to a mutual kill.
    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    He is the only one that can take the monster down. None of the other so called comparable to Superman beings like WW and MMH could do the same. And the so called not as strong as SM but very close to him, and much better fighter with unbreakable magic gear and superior reflexes WW was yet again useless. Her ''near'' SM strength level, allegedly best melee fighter of DC status, superior reflexes and all. She was useless and looked like just any other typical and generic brick that is put in her place until SM gets there.
    Well, at least not without probably dying too, but that's kind of the point of fighting Doomsday in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    The point is as usual. That WW is all lipservice. She wasn't shown close to SM strength. And the so called amazing skills, superior combat speed and magic unbreakable gear that allegedly would make a difference against a physically stronger foe, were yet again useless and irrelevant. The '' she is more skilled'' argument that some people here love to use means nothing. Because her ''amazing'' skills never make a difference in 99% of her battles. Whenever she faces somebody stronger, she goes down. Her skills don't make a difference, her gear doesn't make a difference, her ''superior'' combat speed doesn't make a diffference. WW only gets empty lipservice. She never does anyting big with all the raw power that she is supposed to have according to DC. And with all the amazin martial arts that she is supposed to have according to DC. Same for her gear. All lipservice and no actual showing.
    (Shrugs) I thought it was a good fight scene.

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