Wonder Woman in animation general discussion

[DABellWrites]

Look at the popularity of She-Ra, Ahsoka, and Korra. Diana could absolutely sustain an animated series if it was made with the same standards as TCC and MAWS. That Bloodlines was a flop is something I don’t dispute, there’s a couple reasons for that:

1. Since she’s never had an animated series the general public aren’t as knowledgeable about her stories as they are Batman and Superman. Having cartoons, live action shows, films, and in Batman’s case video games, helped make people fans of the wider mythos
2. The latest round of animated DC movies has really struggled to sell. Even Batman doesn’t sell as well as he used to pre-Flashpoint. Part of that is budget, they used to have a decent budget for these and now they don’t
3. Like others have said, the movie basically threw it all at the wall. It didn’t just try to adapt one popular WW story it tried to adapt a bunch. That it also didn’t use the name of a popular WW storyline to attract attention also hurt it

End of the day nobody thought WW would be only one of the DCEU Trinity to have a successful solo but she did. I wouldn’t bet against her being able to achieve success with an animated series were she given the same opportunity as the other two.

When Wonder Wonder Woman is done right, she's successful. There's no doubt in my mind WW could carry her own animated series without Superman and Batman or other superheroes. She don't need some animated or cinematic universe either. However, Diana is much different than Ahsoka, Korra, and She-Ra. They're already apart of a successful franchise. Wonder Woman is her own franchise. Sure, she has the greater DC Universe, but that's more like a treat rather than something important to Wonder Woman.

[Gaius]

When Wonder Wonder Woman is done right, she's successful. There's no doubt in my mind WW could carry her own animated series without Superman and Batman or other superheroes. She don't need some animated or cinematic universe either. However, Diana is much different than Ahsoka, Korra, and She-Ra. They're already apart of a successful franchise. Wonder Woman is her own franchise. Sure, she has the greater DC Universe, but that's more like a treat rather than something important Wonder Woman.

Ashoka and Korra I can see you're argument but from what I can tell (I didn't watch it) the current She-Ra show made little to no connections/references to He-Man?

And He-Man wasn't having any sort of renaissance prior to the She-Ra show taking off.

[I'm a Fish]

One of the most aggravating things about being a DC fan is that when Batman flops people shrug their shoulders and say “hope they get it right next time” but when another franchise flops it’s not because the people making the movie/game/show f***** up, no it’s “the franchise is just too hard to adapt, it just doesn’t work”. Hearing that makes me rage.

Batman flops and WB lets The Long Halloween be a two-parter to make sure it's done right.

Superman flops and they take a break from the franchise for a little bit.

Wonder Woman flops and they put her on ice for a decade before a successful block buster slaps WB awake and they try to ride the coattails of it before giving up after their second animated attempt...

Meanwhile, Captain America flops as a block buster and no-one at Marvel blamed his I.P. and low-and-behold he get a successful sequel that made bank.

[Vordan]

Batman flops and WB lets The Long Halloween be a two-parter to make sure it's done right.

Superman flops and they take a break from the franchise for a little bit.

Wonder Woman flops and they put her on ice for a decade before a successful block buster slaps WB awake and they try to ride the coattails of it before giving up after their second animated attempt...

Meanwhile, Captain America flops as a block buster and no-one at Marvel blamed his I.P. and low-and-behold he get a successful sequel that made bank.

And when GL flops they take the franchise out back and beat it to death with clubs

Where did WW flop before? I can’t recall them actually making any high profile attempt to do anything with WW between the Carter show and the Gadot movie.

[Gaius]

Meanwhile when Harley stars in reviled and/or box office bombs, DC moves Heaven, Earth, and all in between to make sure she's got a plethora of new content on the way.

[I'm a Fish]

And when GL flops they take the franchise out back and beat it to death with clubs

Where did WW flop before? I can’t recall them actually making any high profile attempt to do anything with WW between the Carter show and the Gadot movie.

Her first animated movie was a flop (or performed under expectation at least, so it might not have necessarily been a flop), but became one of their top sellers later. Actually I think it was around the the time her live action movie was announced.

Lol and yeah, GL flops once and they hide his whole IP in shame.

[Vordan]

Meanwhile when Harley stars in reviled and/or box office bombs, DC moves Heaven, Earth, and all in between to make sure she's got a plethora of new content on the way.

Burns my soul to no end, but that’s the perk of being a Bat character.

[John Venus]

The WW animated movie didn't even flop. It just 'didn't sell fast enough' for the suits liking so they put on ice all female led DTV movies. The director of the movie and Timm wanted to do a follow up to the WW movies and wanted to do a Batgirl as well.

The GL animated movie had the same issue, not selling fast enough, but they still gave that Emerald Knights follow up and the CGI show before canning him.

[BiteTheBullet]

Batman flops and WB lets The Long Halloween be a two-parter to make sure it's done right.

Superman flops and they take a break from the franchise for a little bit.

Wonder Woman flops and they put her on ice for a decade before a successful block buster slaps WB awake and they try to ride the coattails of it before giving up after their second animated attempt...

Meanwhile, Captain America flops as a block buster and no-one at Marvel blamed his I.P. and low-and-behold he get a successful sequel that made bank.

Captain America was a flop? Not sure by what metric you are getting that from, but it was one of the first movies in the Marvel universe and we know how big that is.

Unlike WW84, the second Captain America far exceeded the first in both story and money at the box office. Maybe WW84 should have hired those writers and directors for her second movie!

[I'm a Fish]

Captain America was a flop? Not sure by what metric you are getting that from, but it was one of the first movies in the Marvel universe and we know how big that is.

Unlike WW84, the second Captain America far exceeded the first in both story and money at the box office. Maybe WW84 should have hired those writers and directors for her second movie!

You have to double the numbers of a film’s budget for it to break even, sometimes more.

With an estimate budget between $140-$216 million and a BO of $370 million, Captain America: The First Avenger is a flop.

For comparison, Alita: Battle Angle had an estimate budget of $150-$200 million and made $407 at the BO, analytics suggest the film either just barley broke even or lost as much as $53 million dollars. And guess what, she’s not getting a sequel.

Another comparison is Justice League (2018) with a budget of $300 million and a BO of $658 million, the film is estimated to have needed a breaking even point of $750 million.

[DABellWrites]

Ashoka and Korra I can see you're argument but from what I can tell (I didn't watch it) the current She-Ra show made little to no connections/references to He-Man?

And He-Man wasn't having any sort of renaissance prior to the She-Ra show taking off.

I don't know, but She-Ra is still He-man. When people think She-Ra, they thought He-man's sister. You can't really separate the show from the He-Man franchise despite things. Whereas superheroes from Marvel and DC can work independently or together. I didn't know Blade was a Marvel movie (I was young) until I sat down one day to watch the film.

[John Venus]

I'm pretty sure certain folks online would have had a field day if Captain America: TFA had flopped. It felt like everybody was expecting the Avengers gamble to fail back then. My impression was that the BO wasn't spectacular for Cap (neither was it for Thor's first outing) but it did well enough to not be considered a failure and enough to keep the Avengers experiment going.

I did some googling and can't find any other source declaring it a flop. It, along with Incredible Hulk, Thor and Ant-Man are usually close to the bottom if you rank movies based on domestic/international gross but nobody is calling it a flop. Unless every critic, analyst and independent reviewers are owned by Marvel/Disney now.


Here are some links:

https://pulse.boxofficepro.com/movie/136557

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl1900578305/

https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Ca...er#tab=summary

https://time.com/5523398/highest-gro...marvel-movies/

And a discussion from that time:

https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudi...t_avenger_box/

https://forums.superherohype.com/thr....365899/page-4

[BiteTheBullet]

You have to double the numbers of a film’s budget for it to break even, sometimes more.

With an estimate budget between $140-$216 million and a BO of $370 million, Captain America: The First Avenger is a flop.

For comparison, Alita: Battle Angle had an estimate budget of $150-$200 million and made $407 at the BO, analytics suggest the film either just barley broke even or lost as much as $53 million dollars. And guess what, she’s not getting a sequel.

Another comparison is Justice League (2018) with a budget of $300 million and a BO of $658 million, the film is estimated to have needed a breaking even point of $750 million.

If you take the films budget at $140 million, then it sounds like it was a success. But to call it a flop is a gross misstatement in my opinion, since the subsequent sequels took in a ton of money.

Now, on the other hand, I know by most standards that Justice League was a box office failure since they thought they should easily pass a billion yet fell far short of that. That is besides how insipidly stupid the film was. The Snyder cut was better, but Wondy as well as the other heroes still got the short end of the stick compared to Superman.

[I'm a Fish]

If Cap's budget was on the high end of the estimate, it would be strange not to be considered a flop when compared to movies budgets with return revenue of a similar caliber.

Movie studio's can shy about how much money they spend per flick. Just like an artist doesn't have to tell you how much money they spend on art supplies, a movie doesn't have to accurately tell it's audience how much the film they are watching cost to make.

However, as stated by this article:

"Movie budgets are usually kept a closely guarded secret as the studios tend to absorb the cost of individual pictures as part of their overall expenses so they don't have to report the budgets for them. However, the cost of movies filmed in Britain are consolidated in single companies that have to file publicly available financial statements. All costs are shown on the production company financial statements regardless of where the expenditure is incurred."

(Side note, the article doesn't specify but I think the $216 accounts for what the film cost after taxes. Not sure though, and not even sure how much that matters.)

[I'm a Fish]

If you take the films budget at $140 million, then it sounds like it was a success. But to call it a flop is a gross misstatement in my opinion, since the subsequent sequels took in a ton of money.

Now, on the other hand, I know by most standards that Justice League was a box office failure since they thought they should easily pass a billion yet fell far short of that. That is besides how insipidly stupid the film was. The Snyder cut was better, but Wondy as well as the other heroes still got the short end of the stick compared to Superman.

I think you missed the point of my argument, since I brought up Captain America to indicate that a movies sales aren't necessarily tied to potential interest a character can garner.

People liked Captain America in Avengers enough to give his film a second try, and it made Winter Solider and undeniable success. They could have just stopped and said, "well Cap didn't perform to our expectation in a solo setting so well restrict him to team movies." Which seems to be the excuse being tossed around for why Wonder Woman shouldn't get an animated film or TV show after Bloodlines underperformed.