Wonder Woman in animation general discussion

[Frontier]

For me the worst part of Bloodlines (besides Hippolyta and Julia) was the ending. Cale admits to killing Julia and being responsible for Villainy Inc's attack on Themiskyra...and Diana just walks away and lets her get away with everything? Like, what? At least the 09 movie had a cool ending with her fighting Cheetah.

I actually kind of liked Diana breaking her desk and her uselessly trying to remove the sword while screaming after Wonder Woman...

[WonderLight789]

As I said in my post. I ike what he's told us about her history.

What did he say? That WW isn't as strong as SM. That Donna and Cassie are weaker than Superboy. Great things he has said.

[I'm a Fish]

Steve's character type was pretty popular at the time (Hal Jordan was written pretty similarly around the same time) but it's fallen pretty out of favor in the years since just looking at how he was written in the '17 movie.

Yeah, and I've grown to heavily dislike that "I'm a good person deep down" troupe. Most of the time, if people are terrible it's at best because they are ignorant; at worst because they are just... well actually terrible.

[Gaius]

Yeah, and I've grown to heavily dislike that "I'm a good person deep down" troupe. Most of the time, if people are terrible it's at best because they are ignorant; at worst because they are just... well actually terrible.

Yeah, I used to have more of a soft spot for the film because it was one of the first WW things I watched (beyond odd episodes of Super Friends or the DCAU I got on DVD rentals) but idk, maybe I'm more picky but I'm just not willing accept anything DC/WB just throws us at anymore.

[Frontier]

I wonder how much of a hand Simone had in Steve's characterization.

What did he say? That WW isn't as strong as SM. That Donna and Cassie are weaker than Superboy. Great things he has said.

I think Primal is talking about her backstory.

[I'm a Fish]

Yeah, I used to have more of a soft spot for the film because it was one of the first WW things I watched (beyond odd episodes of Super Friends or the DCAU I got on DVD rentals) but idk, maybe I'm more picky but I'm just not willing accept anything DC/WB just throws us at anymore.

WW '09 was my first piece of Wonder Woman media ever because I didn't like the JL:U cartoon. I still own the DVD.

But yeah, it just hasn't aged well for me.

[BiteTheBullet]

As I said in my post. I ike what he's told us about her history.

Where in the tv show Young Justice did he tell us her history? Because if you are only going by some twitter feed or reddit forum, then it is all lip service.

[bardkeep]

Yeah, I used to have more of a soft spot for the film because it was one of the first WW things I watched (beyond odd episodes of Super Friends or the DCAU I got on DVD rentals) but idk, maybe I'm more picky but I'm just not willing accept anything DC/WB just throws us at anymore.

There are just so many more good YA/kid-focused animated shows now. Rewatching a lot of DCAU stuff is like rewatching Lost - you get why people loved it when it was coming out, but the standard for prestige TV has gone waaaaay up since then. The Bruce Timm shows still LOOK good, but in terms of character development, emotional depth, voice acting, and overall conceptual creativity, shows like Justice League/JLU and STAS have absolutely nothing on shows like Avatar, Netflix's She-Ra, Over the Garden Wall, or even Steven Universe (I haven't seen Young Justice so maybe the caliber has gotten better but idk).

With the DCAU movies, even the best ones are only as good as the better episodes of shows like JL and STAS, and most of them are FAR worse than that. Quality-wise the WW movies are representative of the whole lot and they're both pretty bad. WW 2009 just feels like an hour and a half of someone copying Joss Whedon's worst tendencies and Bloodlines was stale, boring, and unfocused. The animation is always solid, but all of the movies feel emotionless and narratively shallow and the stunt voice casting always sucks (my apologies to Rosario Dawson and Lucy Lawless...) - it's just solid action scenes and a whole lot of blah.

That said...

I actually kind of liked Diana breaking her desk and her uselessly trying to remove the sword while screaming after Wonder Woman...

I also really liked this scene. It deserved better than the movie it was in.

[Guy_McNichts]

I don't necessarily mean that Diana is violent when I refer to her personality being "good at beating people up", I mean that I think the film itself places greater value on individuals who are good at physical combat than those who are not. Like that bookish amazon (can't remember her name) is placed as "unworthy" to be an amazon because she's not good a fighting. And I could be misremembering that aspect of the film but I remember her literally saying something like, "In life I was a coward, but in death I get to be an Amazon."

So they have the one amazon who's bad at fighting and a bookworm, and give her a story arc that culminates in "she was a lesser person until she finally picked up a sword and went to kill people". Like, why was this subplot in the movie if not to say an individuals worth is equal to their physical capabilities and willingness to engage in combat? (and again, I could be misremembering aspects of the movie)
And I get that it's a warrior culture (this film especially doubles down on that), but Marston's amazons had plenty of other roles that made them important without being foot solders. Same with Perez, Rucka, ect.

There are details you're missing.

There's a running thing where the character you're referring to, Alexa, is constantly teased by Artemis as being a poor fighter and wasting her time reading old books. During the final battle, she's brought back to life as one of Ares' zombie slaves to fight the Amazons, but she clues Artemis on how to free them. When asked how she knew how to do that, she teases Artemis that she learned it from reading old books.
She does say "in death, I can be an Amazon" but she never refers to herself as a coward.

It's not handled with the best nuance and does lean closer to the notion the Amazons are defined by fighting more than anything else, but Artemis does learn a lesson about the importance of reading and study.

It is frustrating though how often creators, when doing something with Diana and the Amazons, default to "stabby warriors stuck in the past need to learn men aren't so bad after all" which is contrary to what they are meant to be.
It's all well and good for the Amazons and Hippolyta to learn a lesson, but I do wish they'd ditch the standard "mean feminist" stereotype more often.

Anyway, the 00's and '10's can be described as the period where DC tried to put WW in a box. Much like how Rucka's Sacrifice sadly led to DC learning all the wrong lessons and pushing Diana as the angry warrior woman, the great fight scenes she got in the early DTV movies (Crisis on Two Earths, '09 Wonder Woman, Superman/Batman: Apocalypse) lead to DC thinking that WW's primary purpose was to be a great fighter, forgetting all the other aspects of the character. It's so limiting and unimaginative for them to think she can't be both a great fighter and a diplomat/ambassador. (Yes, she is not bench pressing planets but she was shown as a good wrestler and creative with the lasso during the early DTV movies)

I'm reminded of that interview with the JLU writers where one said they always made sure Wonder Woman was fighting the hardest. While that seems like a good thing, it also reveals they didn't know what else do with her.

When creators can't think of anything interesting for Diana to do, they default to "just make her punch/stab things" and call it a day. Like, in Crisis on Two Earths...Diana doesn't actually do anything important, but her fights scenes were cool.

Could be worse...if they can't think of anything good for her to do, at least make her look cool...but I wonder if that didn't play into the perception that Wonder Woman is the one who punches and stabs first and foremost.

I actually kind of liked Diana breaking her desk and her uselessly trying to remove the sword while screaming after Wonder Woman...

Fine tease for a sequel that would never happen.

It is kind of sad knowing that everything that happens and is set up in Bloodlines ultimately amounts to nothing. Diana gets ripped apart and turned into Darkseid's cyborg slave, Earth is destroyed, and the surviving heroes meekly let Flash erase them from history.

[Gaius]

There are just so many more good YA/kid-focused animated shows now. Rewatching a lot of DCAU stuff is like rewatching Lost - you get why people loved it when it was coming out, but the standard for prestige TV has gone waaaaay up since then. The Bruce Timm shows still LOOK good, but in terms of character development, emotional depth, voice acting, and overall conceptual creativity, shows like Justice League/JLU and STAS have absolutely nothing on shows like Avatar, Netflix's She-Ra, Over the Garden Wall, or even Steven Universe (I haven't seen Young Justice so maybe the caliber has gotten better but idk).

With the DCAU movies, even the best ones are only as good as the better episodes of shows like JL and STAS, and most of them are FAR worse than that. Quality-wise the WW movies are representative of the whole lot and they're both pretty bad. WW 2009 just feels like an hour and a half of someone copying Joss Whedon's worst tendencies and Bloodlines was stale, boring, and unfocused. The animation is always solid, but all of the movies feel emotionless and narratively shallow and the stunt voice casting always sucks (my apologies to Rosario Dawson and Lucy Lawless...) - it's just solid action scenes and a whole lot of blah.

That said...



I also really liked this scene. It deserved better than the movie it was in.

Yeah, I didn't watch CN when the DCAU was on it so I never had much nostalgia for it like a lot of others do. Probably why it's never been a much of a grab for me whenever people or DC make a big deal over DCAU voice actors returning for whatever project (though stuff like Injustice definitely doesn't help, lol).

But yeah, having gone through some of the pre-New 52 animated movies, I'm re-evaluating if there was as much of a steep in quality as I originally thought there was.

YJ peaked at it's first season and I couldn't even finish the third season. Later seasons just seem to Weisman wanting to make the most drab and dull-looking version of the DC universe possible. Though that might just be me sick of how YJ's style became the default DC animation style for years...

[AmiMizuno]

Yea YJ just dipped down in quality it feels like they wanted more plot. Ultimately this new universe is more hopeful. Let's how Diana will show up. Again we saw her in JSA but there also has to be a main Wonder Woman too

[Primal Slayer]

What did he say? That WW isn't as strong as SM. That Donna and Cassie are weaker than Superboy. Great things he has said.

None of that has to do with her history. This isn't about powers. As I said. History.

Where in the tv show Young Justice did he tell us her history? Because if you are only going by some twitter feed or reddit forum, then it is all lip service.

It isn't lip service when the man says it's literally in continuity with the show and the show bible they put together for the show.

[BiteTheBullet]

None of that has to do with her history. This isn't about powers. As I said. History.



It isn't lip service when the man says it's literally in continuity with the show and the show bible they put together for the show.

Unless we see it on screen, it is lip service. How many people are knowledgeable about his show bible? .000000002% of the population of the world as a generous estimate? Good thing he is showing that to the many that don't know about his show bible.....oops, he hasn't shown it to us on screen so again, lip service. Given his track record of all things 'Wonder' in the show, I am pretty sure that whatever his 'show bible' entailed is not something I would want to see!

[Primal Slayer]

Unless we see it on screen, it is lip service. How many people are knowledgeable about his show bible? .000000002% of the population of the world as a generous estimate? Good thing he is showing that to the many that don't know about his show bible.....oops, he hasn't shown it to us on screen so again, lip service. Given his track record of all things 'Wonder' in the show, I am pretty sure that whatever his 'show bible' entailed is not something I would want to see!

Just because a person doesnt know it doesnt make it invalid. You dont want to see it, you dont care about that, that is fine and dandy. As I said...I like the history he carved out for the character. If one doesnt like that, that is perfectly fine. But facts are facts and he said its in canon, then its in canon.

[Frontier]

Fine tease for a sequel that would never happen.

It is kind of sad knowing that everything that happens and is set up in Bloodlines ultimately amounts to nothing. Diana gets ripped apart and turned into Darkseid's cyborg slave, Earth is destroyed, and the surviving heroes meekly let Flash erase them from history.

At least she got to come back and help fight of the other Furies.