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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    Didn't that book get cancelled for Age of X-Man?
    That could've been the case. Either way, Hickman's program hasn't let any room for side stuff, which pretty much sucks if you don't care about the core story.
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  2. #47
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    For awhile The Union was the best team book Marvel was putting out.
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  3. #48
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    well before Hickman X-Men had been long suffering and was targeted for various reasons movie rights and pushing franchises marvel could movies off of a la Avengers, Guardians etc....poor FF4 got axed

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by cam18 View Post
    well before Hickman X-Men had been long suffering and was targeted for various reasons movie rights and pushing franchises marvel could movies off of a la Avengers, Guardians etc....poor FF4 got axed
    The natural order of Marvel Comics is Spider-Man and X-Men on top, and the other titles below. That's what word-of-mouth and public opinion favored when there aren't editorial thumbs on the scales.

    Spider-Man and X-Men between them are Marvel's historical top-selling titles. X-Men is their biggest team and title. In the late-80s and early 90s, the last peak of superhero comics readership (i.e. comics readership has never been as high since then), X-Men were so big that if you took all the X-titles and formed a separate company it would constitute a number 3 behind rest-of-Marvel and DC. And hey, #1 selling issue of all time.

    The thing about the X-Men is that they started the 1970s as a title that had been cancelled and gone into reprints and in five years (1975-1980) with a team of unknowns (Claremont, Byrne) rocketed to the front of table. That's a game-changer that would have spawned several medieval ballads about mighty legendary feats. Nobody else has come closed. The revolutionary achievement of Claremont, introducing the most vibrant female characters (not-named Mary Jane) in Marvel's history was truly uncanny.

  5. #50
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    Shouldn't this thread be in the x-books section?

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Seren's Avatar
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    I'll continue to enjoy my non X-Men books rather than throw my money at X-Men books.
    Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The natural order of Marvel Comics is Spider-Man and X-Men on top, and the other titles below. That's what word-of-mouth and public opinion favored when there aren't editorial thumbs on the scales.

    Spider-Man and X-Men between them are Marvel's historical top-selling titles. X-Men is their biggest team and title. In the late-80s and early 90s, the last peak of superhero comics readership (i.e. comics readership has never been as high since then), X-Men were so big that if you took all the X-titles and formed a separate company it would constitute a number 3 behind rest-of-Marvel and DC. And hey, #1 selling issue of all time.

    The thing about the X-Men is that they started the 1970s as a title that had been cancelled and gone into reprints and in five years (1975-1980) with a team of unknowns (Claremont, Byrne) rocketed to the front of table. That's a game-changer that would have spawned several medieval ballads about mighty legendary feats. Nobody else has come closed. The revolutionary achievement of Claremont, introducing the most vibrant female characters (not-named Mary Jane) in Marvel's history was truly uncanny.
    Isn't Avengers selling more than X-men right now? I'm not enjoying that book at all but apparently it's selling quite well.

    Last Comichron chart, Avengers and Spider-man sold more than any X-title (outside of a special issue).

    During the Bendis Avengers era, it was the top selling title in the country (for years on end). I don't think the X-men are the top sellers they used to be.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Isn't Avengers selling more than X-men right now?
    No.

    Last Comichron chart, Avengers and Spider-man sold more than any X-title (outside of a special issue).
    Which Comichron chart? There's more than one of them you know.

    During the Bendis Avengers era, it was the top selling title in the country (for years on end).
    The Bendis Avengers era
    a) included Spider-Man and Wolverine in the line-up and so doesn't qualify as a vindication of the Avengers stable in-and-of-itself.
    b) coincided with a period of editorial thumb-on-scales to elevate the Avengers as part of a corporate interest to elevate the associated titles.
    c) leading to stories like House of M which is mainly an Avengers story that outright sabotages the X-Men continuity for a real-time decade+.
    d) and features Iron Man presented as mentor to flagship hero Spider-Man when the two had literally no significant prior comics' interaction.
    e) it sold well but never reached the heights of Claremont-era X-Men in units sold or revenue generated.

    Ergo, doesn't count.

    ​I don't think the X-men are the top sellers they used to be.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    No.



    Which Comichron chart? There's more than one of them you know.



    The Bendis Avengers era
    a) included Spider-Man and Wolverine in the line-up and so doesn't qualify as a vindication of the Avengers stable in-and-of-itself.
    b) coincided with a period of editorial thumb-on-scales to elevate the Avengers as part of a corporate interest to elevate the associated titles.
    c) leading to stories like House of M which is mainly an Avengers story that outright sabotages the X-Men continuity for a real-time decade+.
    d) and features Iron Man presented as mentor to flagship hero Spider-Man when the two had literally no significant prior comics' interaction.
    e) it sold well but never reached the heights of Claremont-era X-Men in units sold or revenue generated.

    Ergo, doesn't count.



    Avengers is selling better according to Comichron. At least for the last two months.

    https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...1/2021-04.html

    And that’s despite the huge relaunch. But I’m not surprised, the X-men aren’t the sales juggernaut they used to be.

    I understand your point about the Bendis Avengers but even before then the Ultimates was Marvel’s top seller (when it shipped) and that was in the early 2000a.
    Last edited by Username taken; 05-25-2021 at 03:10 PM.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    No.



    Which Comichron chart? There's more than one of them you know.



    The Bendis Avengers era
    a) included Spider-Man and Wolverine in the line-up and so doesn't qualify as a vindication of the Avengers stable in-and-of-itself.
    b) coincided with a period of editorial thumb-on-scales to elevate the Avengers as part of a corporate interest to elevate the associated titles.
    c) leading to stories like House of M which is mainly an Avengers story that outright sabotages the X-Men continuity for a real-time decade+.
    d) and features Iron Man presented as mentor to flagship hero Spider-Man when the two had literally no significant prior comics' interaction.
    e) it sold well but never reached the heights of Claremont-era X-Men in units sold or revenue generated.

    Ergo, doesn't count.



    This post is the bomb.

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Avengers is selling better according to Comichron. At least for the last two months.

    https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...1/2021-04.html

    And that’s despite the huge relaunch. But I’m not surprised, the X-men aren’t the sales juggernaut they used to be.

    I understand your point about the Bendis Avengers but even before then the Ultimates was Marvel’s top seller (when it shipped) and that was in the early 2000a.
    Avengers is not selling better. LOL. they have hot moments with sales as with most Marvel IPs but like most marvel titles not named Spiderman or X-MEN they don't have constant stability, Although I feel Revolutionary Jack may have been too harsh in saying Spiderman and X-Men going back to the top spot was about the natural order of things, what these two series have had at constant in quality and longevity something Avengers and other marvel IPs will never have because they have no mythology or interesting self contained universe like Spiderman and X-Men.

    Also both IPs were already their own thing before the MCU stuff that started affected comics leading to F4 cancellation and Inhumans replacing X-Men or Iron Man replacing Spiderman as the main hero of marvel, Marvel was never going to succeed with this in the long run. they were racing against time.

    The MCU influence on comics is slowing down, so yeah, it is no surprise Spiderman and X-MEN will emerge again as the top quality side of Marvel comics. they have the stories and world building of 60 years. To make it simple. Spiderman and X-MEN will always stand the test of time, other Marvel comics like Avengers and friends won't. their best interest factor are their CGI Disney movies.

    The interest of Spiderman and X-men are not their movies. They did not become popular because of their movies. these marvel IP do have genuine devoted readers that keep this series in comic mainstream even in a limited extent. this is why marvel could not just cancel xmen in 2014-2016 and replace it with inhumans or try and push Iron Man above Spiderman, let just leave it as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chocomancer View Post
    Shouldn't this thread be in the x-books section?
    No. I prefer it here on marvel forum , there is less bias. Although from my own experiences many X-Men fans can be very objective but still , this forum is better. X Books sometimes feels like a strict XMEN only forum, with little comment from non XMEN fans.
    Last edited by Castle; 05-25-2021 at 03:55 PM.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Avengers is selling better according to Comichron. At least for the last two months.
    You showed me the chart for April.

    And even then, the chart you shared clearly lists:

    12 9 Way of X#1
    17 22 Avengers#44

    Ergo, an X-Men satellite launch featuring Nightcrawler debuted higher than Avengers.

    So your evidence doesn't support your claim.

    And that’s despite the huge relaunch.
    Which relaunch are you talking about? If you mean the Hellfire Gala title relaunch that's not happened yet. If you mean the Hickman relaunch that happened in 2019 and the X-titles have done superbly since then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    This post is the bomb.
    Aww, shucks. Thank you.

    This post by you:

    Avengers is not selling better. LOL. they have hot moments with sales as with most Marvel IPs but like most marvel titles not named Spiderman or X-MEN they don't have constant stability, Although I feel Revolutionary Jack may have been too harsh in saying Spiderman and X-Men going back to the top spot was about the natural order of things, what these two series have had at constant in quality and longevity something Avengers and other marvel IPs will never have because they have no mythology or interesting self contained universe like Spiderman and X-Men.

    Also both IPs were already their own thing before the MCU stuff that started affected comics leading to F4 cancellation and Inhumans replacing X-Men or Iron Man replacing Spiderman as the main hero of marvel, Marvel was never going to succeed with this in the long run. they were racing against time.
    is pretty great too.

  12. #57
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    Marvel was never going to succeed with this in the long run. they were racing against time.
    We get you hate Marvel movies.

    Also the other properties DO have their own universes. Some larger than others.

    Also some of those properties had success before those movies.

    Some like Antman had nothing yet found audiences.

    Some like Rocket Raccoon and Squirrel Girl were in limbo for years and found audiences.

    Marvel despite EVERYTHING and EVERYONE did succeed.

    As for stable-X-Men have avoided the nonsense that has derailed some books.

    However that same stability has hindered growth-we are still waiting on the X-Men to be more than pretty white people in front while POC get crumbs.

    That stability that keep Storm from getting a solo while Moon Girl, Squirrel Girl & Ms Marvel took on hate and saw 4-5 year runs.

    That stability that kept Emma, Jean, Rogue and other females (not named X-23) from getting nonstop solo shots like Carol Danvers and She Hulk got.

    That stability that made Bishop evil and kept Synch dead. While Falcon, Panther, Cage & Rhodey have have book shelves of trades of solo adventures.

    Unlike Spidey and even Batman who did not let stability lead to complacency and have way too many folks running around with solos and building their own universes (Spidey more than Batman).

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chocomancer View Post
    Shouldn't this thread be in the x-books section?
    While it would fit there also, the thread clearly compares the X-men to the rest of Marvel and so it belongs here, too.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    You showed me the chart for April.

    And even then, the chart you shared clearly lists:

    12 9 Way of X#1
    17 22 Avengers#44

    Ergo, an X-Men satellite launch featuring Nightcrawler debuted higher than Avengers.

    So your evidence doesn't support your claim.



    Which relaunch are you talking about? If you mean the Hellfire Gala title relaunch that's not happened yet. If you mean the Hickman relaunch that happened in 2019 and the X-titles have done superbly since then.



    Aww, shucks. Thank you.

    This post by you:



    is pretty great too.
    I made reference to March and April but I only posted the link for April. I don’t want to spam links that’s why I just posted one month but the site has historical data.

    Way of X is a new launch and like most first issues will drop by next month behind Avengers (although there won’t be any Avengers titles because of Heroes Reborn).

    Crappy as Avengers is, it’s still outselling the ongoing X-books prior to Heroes Reborn.

    Regarding relaunch, I was talking about Hickman’s relaunch because I actually thought the X-books were selling better than they are. It took place in 2019 but COVID happened last year and for some months comics weren’t shipped at all. With the exception of the main X-men book the other parts of the line are doing average and some have been cancelled already.

    The truth is other titles like Hulk, Thor, the aforementioned Avengers and the Spider-man are outselling most X-titles. Heck. Daredevil outsold most of the X-books in April. As skyvolt pointed out, other titles and characters have found audiences and I think that’s best for Marvel in the long run. Most of the X-books aren’t even in the top 50 (Excalibur, Marauders, Hellions etc are already selling less than titles that came before), that’s not a line that Marvel can bank on. As I mentioned before, Cable and X-Factor are already cancelled and I won’t be surprised to see more to considering how low some of them are charting.

    So, based on the available data (there might be other things we don’t see) the X-men are NOT exactly top of the Marvel line, maybe they are in terms of number of titles from a single line but it’s a far cry from the 90s when every single Marvel title in the top 20 were X-men and Spider-man titles.

    EDIT: Funny enough, I actually read about the “struggles” of the X-line in the X-men forum. There was a thread there that has a lot more information about the line that I have. I’m only going off what I see on Comichron.
    Last edited by Username taken; 05-26-2021 at 01:13 AM.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member Seren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post

    No. I prefer it here on marvel forum , there is less bias. Although from my own experiences many X-Men fans can be very objective but still , this forum is better. X Books sometimes feels like a strict XMEN only forum, with little comment from non XMEN fans.
    I could say so much about this but it's not the time or place.
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