At this point, X-Men Team books publishing is the Most Stable Franchise

[Castle]

And just like that, I've edited my original post.

Thanks for pointing out my original error. But im surprised at just how dishonest you're being here considering I shared the orignal link with you yesterday and my post wasn't even addressed at you.

But anyway, just put me ignore if you're so pained by the sales data because I'm only going by that and not that hyperbolic nonsense of "the X-men being on top is the natural order of things".



So please, move along and stop replying my posts, you have nothing to add to this discussion beyond angry words. No data, no information, nothing.

It was not hyperbolic nonsense, The natural order of things with marvel has shown Spiderman and X-Men can sustain always itself and will have the most longevity.

Revolutionary Jack, showed Data and information, the same thing I did with the discrimination themes of X-MEN that you always called nonsense and ignored

yea this is all very true. spider man is the only franchise who doesn't need a a consistently good writer because he's been marvels golden goose since the 60's. he will always sell. as much as x men fans may not want to admit it the franchise can fall and not sell as well as other marvel properties if good writers aren't there to hold it up. before wein and claremont the x men had stopped putting out new books and were just reprinting the old stories because no one was that interested in the series. then the mid 70's and 80's happened and they rivaled even spider mans popularity. unless your spider man it really does come down to to writer.

No I dont agree with this, the best thing is to do is test every marvel franchise and see how long they will last or hold up.

X-Men took it hard from Disney in the 2010s. they were given them crappy comics, they cut them out of games and cancelled their cartoon (WATX), it even got so bad that Disney once told writers not to create new characters since it would mean Fox will get the rights to them by default, that is how bad it was, but the X-MEN IP still survived.

I would like to see Avengers, ANT MAN, GOTG, BLACK PANTHER, THOR, get it that hard by the most powerful entertainment company as Disney and still be around. Those franchise will vanish in seconds, if Disney decides to start treating them like crap as they did with X-men.

So yes the X-Men fans have every to boast about their series. I think it is earned. A series rising and falling is not the same as longevity. Additionally X-MEN has had bad comics like the Chuck Austen run, fans did something called Hate reading. So Its not just down to Spiderman, there have been crappy xmen books that still did well.

Rob Liefeld is not even considered a great comic artist to many X-Men fans and his books still sold like hot cakes back then.

The bottom line is this and it is the same for DC as well. When it comes to comics, never put all your eggs in a series that only got popular because some watched the movie adaption. , espcially in this days of faux hype and social media.

[Username taken]

It was not hyperbolic nonsense, The natural order of things with marvel has shown Spiderman and X-Men can sustain always itself and will have the most longevity.

Revolutionary Jack, showed Data and information, the same thing I did with the discrimination themes of X-MEN that you always called nonsense No I dont agree with this, the best thing is to do is test every marvel franchise and see how long they will last or hold up.

X-Men took it hard from Disney in the 2010s. they were given them crappy comics, they cut them out of games and cancelled their cartoon (WATX), it even got so bad that Disney once told writers not to create new characters since it would mean Fox will get the rights to them by default, that is how bad it was, but the X-MEN IP still survived.

I would like to see Avengers, ANT MAN, GOTG, BLACK PANTHER, THOR, get it that hard by the most powerful entertainment company as Disney and still be around. Those franchise will vanish in seconds, if Disney decides to start treating them like crap as they did with X-men.

First and foremost, there's nothing like a natural order of comic title hierarchy. I find that "title supremacy" assertion to be utterly disgusting. Worse still, it's not even true. And he didn't show any information whatsoever, I was the one quoting comichron. He's not shown anything at all, if he did, I would have accepted it and moved on.

And forget about the discrimination argument, I can't take the X-men movie franchise when they are white-washing characters and "lightening" the skin color of dark skinned African characters.

If Disney wanted the X-men gone, they'd be GONE. And I'm not even being hyperbolic here. The main source of Marvel's revenue now is the movies and they haven't even produced X-men films yet, that just shows that the X-men isn't a priority to them.

All the time the X-men were "downplayed", they almost always had A-list creators handling the books. I won't deny that Marvel did some dumb things (like the Inhumans vs X-men garbage) but the X-men almost always had A-list creators. I will agree that the X-men and Spider-man have generally outsold most of the line but that isn't always the case now because other titles have found audiences now.

Before the 2000s, it's arguable the likes of Thor, Black Panther, GOTG got the same level of creator that was placed on the X-books (Liefeld, Portacio, Lee, Silvestri..the Image guys got their breaks on the X-books) and yet those books still lasted and are still around today (although GOTG and BP have been cancelled and relaunched a number of times, just like almost every other Marvel title at one time or the other). I won't deny that X-men books have always been big sellers but other franchises have found audiences too. Basically, Marvel did EVERYTHING possible to keep the X-men at the top of the line for decades. I just find it an utterly bizarre argument to me that Marvel didn't do everything possible to make the X-men what they are today. Don't forget that Marvel literally sacrificed fantastic writers like Micheline and Claremont for the sake of their artists (i.e Mcfarlane and Lee) just because said artists were the biggest names in the industry at the time.

So yes the X-Men fans have every to boast about their series. A series rising and falling is not the same as longevity. Additionally X-MEN has had bad comics like the Chuck Austen run, fans did something called Hate reading. So It not just down to Spiderman, there have been crappy xmen books that still did well.

Yes, because Marvel did EVERYTHING in their power to sustain the X-line . It didn't just happen by itself, the X-books found an audience and Marvel did all they could to keep the books to be successful. Chuck Austen was a terrible writer but for some reason, he was considered A-list and wrote a lot of titles from Avengers to JLA to Superman to Eternals to War Machine. He was kind of a big deal for a brief while.

Rob Liefeld

is not even considered a great comic artist to many X-Men and his book still sold like hot cakes back then.

Rob Liefeld's name alone sold books back in the day. X-Force #1 sold over a million copies and Liefeld's Youngblood sold over a million copies. His Image books (when they shipped were massive). He was arguably the biggest name in comics in the early 1990s.

[Crimz]

The whole "natural order" thing is such a weird statement to make. Almost any character can be on top depending on the run and what resonates with readers at the time.

Also, It doesn't matter that the films played a big influence in the Avengers popularity, all that matter was that they were popular both in and out of comics. Just like how the 90s X-Men cartoon helped increase their popularity both in and out of comics.

[hairys]

The whole "natural order" thing is such a weird statement to make. Almost any character can be on top depending on the run and what resonates with readers at the time.

I think that's taking it too far. If I had to ballpark it, I'd say 20% of characters are recognizably more marketable than average, 60% are muddled in the middle where it depends on the writer, and another 20% are recognizably less marketable than average. (So, it sounds like your "muddle in the middle" is closer to 99%, which is too big, imo.)

[Toonstrack]

Shang Chi? Iron Man solo? BW solo? Venom? Guardians of the Galaxy? Thor? DD? Iron Fist? Like... theres books out there that are solid

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The whole "natural order" thing is such a weird statement to make.

I meant it as hyperbole and a joke when I made it.

To the extent it meant anything it's that the 1970s to the early 90s was the last time you had a real comics readership with actual word-of-mouth. Today you rarely have anything like that. When that readership existed and thrived, X-Men defeated everyone in Marvel in a straight fair fight.

That's forever. That's a victory that's permanent at least based on the idea that the comics industry is never gonna recapture the highs.

No one will take that away.

[Username taken]

The whole "natural order" thing is such a weird statement to make. Almost any character can be on top depending on the run and what resonates with readers at the time.

Also, It doesn't matter that the films played a big influence in the Avengers popularity, all that matter was that they were popular both in and out of comics. Just like how the 90s X-Men cartoon helped increase their popularity both in and out of comics.

Exactly. There’s nothing like a natural order of comics (that turn of phrase is uncomfortably close to white supremacist assertions which like I said earlier I find utterly disgusting). And at the moment, Marvel is just churning out the X-books and trying to get success off the by the sheer number of books, most of the line is already in the mid to lose range and titles like Hulk, Thor and Daredevil outs sell most X-books.

There was a time FF was Marvel’s biggest sellers, the first issue of Coates BP sold over 300,000 copies (this likely because Coates had mainstream exposure and his coming in boosted sales to a massive degree), Bendis GoTG was consistently one of Marvel’s highest selling books. It all depends on what Marvel wants to “push” at any point in time.

Immortal Hulk became a big word of mouth success because of the combination of Bennett and Ewing on the title. It didn’t just “happen” because it’s “the natural order of things”, it happened because of the resources Marvel devoted to the book.

A whole lot of things happened to make the X-men books attain the success they did back in the day. The 90s cartoon was huge and Marvel kept their very top talents (guys whose names can still sell books to this very day) on the books. Other main line Marvel titles didn’t have this (I think Defalco had a run on FF back in the day and I can’t even remember who was doing Avengers or Iron Man then).

[Toonstrack]

Exactly. There’s nothing like a natural order of comics (that turn of phrase is uncomfortably close to white supremacist assertions which like I said earlier I find utterly disgusting). And at the moment, Marvel is just churning out the X-books and trying to get success off the by the sheer number of books, most of the line is already in the mid to lose range and titles like Hulk, Thor and Daredevil outs sell most X-books.

There was a time FF was Marvel’s biggest sellers, the first issue of Coates BP sold over 300,000 copies (this likely because Coates had mainstream exposure and his coming in boosted sales to a massive degree), Bendis GoTG was consistently one of Marvel’s highest selling books. It all depends on what Marvel wants to “push” at any point in time.

Immortal Hulk became a big word of mouth success because of the combination of Bennett and Ewing on the title. It didn’t just “happen” because it’s “the natural order of things”, it happened because of the resources Marvel devoted to the book.

A whole lot of things happened to make the X-men books attain the success they did back in the day. The 90s cartoon was huge and Marvel kept their very top talents (guys whose names can still sell books to this very day) on the books. Other main line Marvel titles didn’t have this (I think Defalco had a run on FF back in the day and I can’t even remember who was doing Avengers or Iron Man then).

I mean.... this has almost nothing to do with white supremacy at all, its asserting that Spider-Man and x men naturally will oitsell comic books.

Im not sure about its validity. Even if it was the way it was for long time

[Username taken]

I mean.... this has almost nothing to do with white supremacy at all[/B], its asserting that Spider-Man and x men naturally will oitsell comic books.

Turn of phrase is uncomfortably close to white supremacist assertions

I didn't say it did.

I'm talking about "a natural order of hierarchy" being used a lot by eugenics based white supremacy.

I find that talk to be utterly disgusting.

[charliehustle415]

ah another x thread that has properly gone off the rails.

[Username taken]

ah another x thread that has properly gone off the rails.

It really shouldn't have.

I tried to make my point with the comichron estimates. It wasn't really something to get worked up about.

A certain poster decided to attack me personally (and very dishonestly). I'd hoped to have a discussion based on the current sales data (and not irrelevant data from decades ago) and not have people come in and start trying to twist my points and disparage my character in the process. That's just a recipe for disaster.

But I've done my part in derailing the thread, I'll bow out now. I've gotten plenty worked up on this board and gotten banned for it before, it's not really worth getting banned again because some "kids" on the internet don't understand comic sales estimates.

[LAWtoyoto 432]

Shang Chi? Iron Man solo? BW solo? Venom? Guardians of the Galaxy? Thor? DD? Iron Fist? Like... theres books out there that are solid

The books I am discussing in this thread are team books. But yeah GOTG also good, but it need more attention since the sales proves otherwises.

[carmoc1234]

X-Men took it hard from Disney in the 2010s. they were given them crappy comics, they cut them out of games and cancelled their cartoon (WATX), it even got so bad that Disney once told writers not to create new characters since it would mean Fox will get the rights to them by default, that is how bad it was, but the X-MEN IP still survived.

I would like to see Avengers, ANT MAN, GOTG, BLACK PANTHER, THOR, get it that hard by the most powerful entertainment company as Disney and still be around. Those franchise will vanish in seconds, if Disney decides to start treating them like crap as they did with X-men.

honestly if they put them through that i assume the same thing would happen that happened with the x men. the avengers characters would have a reduced role in the marvel universe, bad stories and then when a they decided to stop doing that a talented writer would come along eventually and reinvigorate the franchise and the fans of those characters would flock to these new books.
on the similar note if they decided to do worse to the avengers like they did to the fantastic four where they lost everything and only got mentioned occasionally, they would again be brought back with much more fanfare than the other scenario

[charliehustle415]

It really shouldn't have.

I tried to make my point with the comichron estimates. It wasn't really something to get worked up about.

A certain poster decided to attack me personally (and very dishonestly). I'd hoped to have a discussion based on the current sales data (and not irrelevant data from decades ago) and not have people come in and start trying to twist my points and disparage my character in the process. That's just a recipe for disaster.

But I've done my part in derailing the thread, I'll bow out now. I've gotten plenty worked up on this board and gotten banned for it before, it's not really worth getting banned again because some "kids" on the internet don't understand comic sales estimates.

it happens, gotta remember these are just funny books with people in tights playing cops & robbers

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I tried to make my point with the comichron estimates.

The first rule of rewriting history, do it only when the other person isn't in a position to counter what you said.

Here's the record for everyone:

Last Comichron chart, Avengers and Spider-man sold more than any X-title (outside of a special issue).

During the Bendis Avengers era, it was the top selling title in the country (for years on end). I don't think the X-men are the top sellers they used to be.

I.E. you didn't offer Comichron estimates out of the gate. You said "Last Comichron chart" and left it at that without offering any links. I was the one who asked you to present your references:

Which Comichron chart? There's more than one of them you know.

Then there's the undeniable fact that the links you present repeatedly contradict your claim:

You showed me the chart for April.

And even then, the chart you shared clearly lists:

12 9 Way of X#1
17 22 Avengers#44

Ergo, an X-Men satellite launch featuring Nightcrawler debuted higher than Avengers.

So your evidence doesn't support your claim.

Then again you cited vague Comichron chart for March without offering any references:

I made reference to March and April but I only posted the link for April. I don’t want to spam links that’s why I just posted one month but the site has historical data.

I was the one who presented the March chart:

Okay going by March 2021
https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...1/2021-03.html

10 9 Demon Days X-Men
14 18 Avengers#43
15 20 X-Men#19

Then again you presented a link (which you subsequently edited but thankfully my post features the first version as excerpted) which presented another repeated and clear situation of you presenting faulty references to prove your point:

For the rest of the board, this link shows and I quote the headline verbatim:
"April 2021 DC Comic Book Sales"

At this point I have come to the following conclusions:
1) You are a troll trying to get a rise out of posters to get them banned.
2) You are gaslighting the rest of the board by bad arguments, lousy posts, shoddy research and like Ted Cruz and Trump simply won't accept reality.
3) Eh...anything else.


Anyway, I'd like to leave things but I cannot accept someone trying to rewrite and change the record right away. I should think the Capitol Riots of January 6 and the way people behind it are trying to change what everyone in the world saw should make them think twice about mirroring said tactics in daily life from an ethical perspective at least.