At this point, X-Men Team books publishing is the Most Stable Franchise

[Username taken]

The first rule of rewriting history, do it only when the other person isn't in a position to counter what you said.

Here's the record for everyone:



I.E. you didn't offer Comichron estimates out of the gate. You said "Last Comichron chart" and left it at that without offering any links. I was the one who asked you to present your references:



Then there's the undeniable fact that the links you present repeatedly contradict your claim:



Then again you cited vague Comichron chart for March without offering any references:



I was the one who presented the March chart:



Then again you presented a link (which you subsequently edited but thankfully my post features the first version as excerpted) which presented another repeated and clear situation of you presenting faulty references to prove your point:



At this point I have come to the following conclusions:
1) You are a troll trying to get a rise out of posters to get them banned.
2) You are gaslighting the rest of the board by bad arguments, lousy posts, shoddy research and like Ted Cruz and Trump simply won't accept reality.
3) Eh...anything else.


Anyway, I'd like to leave things but I cannot accept someone trying to rewrite and change the record right away. I should think the Capitol Riots of January 6 and the way people behind it are trying to change what everyone in the world saw should make them think twice about mirroring said tactics in daily life from an ethical perspective at least.

Either English isn’t your first language or you’re just darn dishonest. Me citing Comichron is for EVERYONE to go their site and have a see. Like i said earlier, I’m not going to spam their links here, I’m not working for that site.

Let me re-write this and capitalize it..I said AVENGERS IS SELLING MORE THAN ONGOING X-BOOKS meaning I’m excluding new launches. Demon Days X-men and Way of X are first issues so I’m not counting them as ongoings (because they are issue 1s).

I said that new launches always sell more and fall as time goes on. You’re literally (and I mean this literally) one of the first people have encountered on this board that doesn’t understand this. I accidentally posted the DC April chart and I simply went back and posted CHART THAT I POSTED EARLIER (that’s why I said you’re very dishonest and this ramble you just posted here confirms it). You said I posted a link thinking that people wouldn’t check it when I literally posted it to show the data. That’s an extremely silly thing to say and I’m not sure why you thought it was a good point to make.

Between you not understanding the sales data to that utterly ridiculous “natural order of things” you typed earlier you’re just embarrassing yourself. This isn’t 4chan, when you type dumb shit like that, expect to get challenged and if you can’t defend said dumb shit then just move along and spare everyone your ignorance. More so when people are using some sort of “comics eugenics” assertion that’s not even based in reality.

Like I said earlier, if this stuff makes you so emotional you can leave the thread and let others discuss while you research the sales data to back your “natural order of things” garbage.

[king of hybrids]

Ah, X-fans come to brag how we’re all bigoted hicks who don’t appreciate true storytelling and how the rest of marvel should have stayed dead after Onslaught.

This takes me back

[Username taken]

Ah, X-fans come to brag how we’re all bigoted hicks who don’t appreciate true storytelling and how the rest of marvel should have stayed dead after Onslaught.

This takes me back

There was a lot of toxicity on the X-forums and some of it has come into this thread.

It’s like some fans can’t and don’t want to accept the fact that mainline Marvel books now sell as well or in may cases better than the main X-books. Worse still, they’ve completely warped their views into believing that Marvel wasn’t instrumental in making the X-books into as successful as they are.

[Jack The Tripper]

I don’t know why you’re getting emotional about Avengers selling more than X-men or X-books not selling that well.

I mentioned it earlier that first issues generally sell better. And I mentioned “ongoing X-titles”, I wasn’t including new issues in my post. I mean, most X-titles don’t even break the top 50, it’s right there in the data. Outside of new launches, Avengers are selling better than X-men, maybe there’s some reason for this like variant covers or something but that’s what the data shows.

But you can continue ranting against the facts though. I’m not going down this road and I’m not arguing with folks that against accept nor check basic data. I did that in the politics thread and I’m done with that.

But feel free to have the last word, I’ll continue the discussion with others based on the hard data and not your emotion.

I think it's fairly limiting to only look at the last couple of months seeing as X-Men didn't even release an issue in April, and this Avengers arc has had a lot of third party interest due to characters wielding the phoenix force (an X-Men creation) - not to mention it features way more characters than just the Avengers (Echo, Wolverine, Namor etc). If you look back through the end of 2019 through 2020, X-titles are pretty consistent in their sales - beating out Avengers and pretty frequently going toe to toe with Batman and Spider-Man.

I also think Covid had a bad effect on the X-Line - any body who was buying multiple titles have likely had to cut down due to lockdowns/redundancies etc. I don't know if comichron tallies international diamond sales but I know Europe's comic ordering has been all over the place due to the constant lockdowns.

One thing batting against the X-Men (and might show why they're not doing as consistently well as they were last year) is that X of Swords was a huge event that went through all titles, which I think may have turned off a lot of fans who just wanted to read specific series.

But yeah, overall, X-Men books have been pretty good sellers for the last couple of years. Even in Feb 2020 they managed to have TWO non essential X-Men issues beat Batman, which is a pretty good feat, even if Batman was coming off that divisive Tom King run. I think once The Hellfire Gala is over in July we'll be able to see how well they're doing from there.

*I read both Avengers and X-Titles by the way, and I'm honestly enjoying all of them right now. Even Aaron's stuff.*

[CosmiComic]

Ah, X-fans come to brag how we’re all bigoted hicks who don’t appreciate true storytelling and how the rest of marvel should have stayed dead after Onslaught.

This takes me back

I don't quite get the "bigoted hicks" part

[Username taken]

I think it's fairly limiting to only look at the last couple of months seeing as X-Men didn't even release an issue in April, and this Avengers arc has had a lot of third party interest due to characters wielding the phoenix force (an X-Men creation) - not to mention it features way more characters than just the Avengers (Echo, Wolverine, Namor etc). If you look back through the end of 2019 through 2020, X-titles are pretty consistent in their sales - beating out Avengers and pretty frequently going toe to toe with Batman and Spider-Man.

I also think Covid had a bad effect on the X-Line - any body who was buying multiple titles have likely had to cut down due to lockdowns/redundancies etc. I don't know if comichron tallies international diamond sales but I know Europe's comic ordering has been all over the place due to the constant lockdowns.

Thanks for this. I needed a little more context.

February 2020 was still fairly early in the overall X-title relaunch so the overall titles sales were higher. Immediately after the Dawn of X re-launch, sales were pretty huge which is true for any title.

The X-line has experienced some standard attrition and isn't selling as well as before. Yes, the X-men titles have always sold well, I've never argued against that. My argument is that in the current market for whatever reason, the X-titles aren't as dominant as before. To that point anything can sell very well at any time in today's market. It all depends on what Marvel wants to push at any point in time. Like I mentioned before, Black Panther issue 1 sold a massive 300,000 copies because of hype (until people started reading it and discovered it was boring).

I legit thought the X-books were selling more than they are at the moment.

One thing batting against the X-Men (and might show why they're not doing as consistently well as they were last year) is that X of Swords was a huge event that went through all titles, which I think may have turned off a lot of fans who just wanted to read specific series.

Yeah, this could be why sales aren't so hot at the moment.

But yeah, overall, X-Men books have been pretty good sellers for the last couple of years. Even in Feb 2020 they managed to have TWO non essential X-Men issues beat Batman, which is a pretty good feat, even if Batman was coming off that divisive Tom King run. I think once The Hellfire Gala is over in July we'll be able to see how well they're doing from there.

*I read both Avengers and X-Titles by the way, and I'm honestly enjoying all of them right now. Even Aaron's stuff.*

This is fair enough. EDIT: I read both titles too including X-Force.

[hairys]

Exactly. There’s nothing like a natural order of comics (that turn of phrase is uncomfortably close to white supremacist assertions which like I said earlier I find utterly disgusting). And at the moment, Marvel is just churning out the X-books and trying to get success off the by the sheer number of books, most of the line is already in the mid to lose range and titles like Hulk, Thor and Daredevil outs sell most X-books.

It's more ridiculous to believe that all properties are equal. Like I said, it's probably structured more like a normal curve where there's a big hump in the middle with many titles that are very creator-dependent but also some titles that consistently excel no matter who's writing/drawing and others that consistently lag behind.

Just one example. I'm a huge DD fan and like him better than Spidey, BUT I completely understand why Spidey would typically sell more than DD, especially to younger demos. They're not equally marketable characters.

[krazijoe]

I have been reading the X titles but they REALLY lost me with the whole Living Island Mutant. Just not a fan of it at all. So tired of the rehashed EVERYONE HATES US! Lets take our ball and go home!
Then internal strife threatening to break them up, and now they can't die. Blah, blah blah...TO me it's all just about as coherent as my rambling...

[Username taken]

I've just about said everything I need to say in this thread.

Jack The Tripper added the context I was looking for in the sales data.

My original point was that other titles that would NEVER have been given the time of the day are big sellers (like Hulk, Thor etc) today. They've found audiences and are all doing well.

No one ever said the X-men wasn't a "top property". It was and always will be, just that it's not the monster it was in the 1990s. Case in point, this link has January 1994 sales:

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...01Diamond.html

There were virtually no Marvel titles outside the top 50 except X-titles and Spider-man books. For the last time, I'll post last months link (hope I get it right this time because Comichron's site has been changed due to DC leaving Diamond):

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...1/2021-04.html

You have a lot more main line Marvel titles in the top 50 than before.

[Username taken]

I have been reading the X titles but they REALLY lost me with the whole Living Island Mutant. Just not a fan of it at all. So tired of the rehashed EVERYONE HATES US! Lets take our ball and go home!
Then internal strife threatening to break them up, and now they can't die. Blah, blah blah...TO me it's all just about as coherent as my rambling...

Funny enough, I like the Krakoa stuff but it's threatening to become redudant.

In the last X-men issue, a major character made a major decision, took a major step and basically ended up right back where they started.

[CosmiComic]

I have been reading the X titles but they REALLY lost me with the whole Living Island Mutant. Just not a fan of it at all. So tired of the rehashed EVERYONE HATES US! Lets take our ball and go home!
Then internal strife threatening to break them up, and now they can't die. Blah, blah blah...TO me it's all just about as coherent as my rambling...

At some point it would be nice if the whole mutant hate business was solved. imo it never made total sense in the first place

[your_name_here]

Yeah, the X-Line is pretty hot right now.

I hope it sets a new precedent for titles being properly intertwined. I know over on Batman Tynion is wanting to do the same - he said seeing what the X-Line is doing is his inspiration.

[FFJamie94]

Living in the UK, I can say that some books were released a week after they were in the US.
There wasn't an X-Men book in April due to the books simply lining up for Hellfire Gala.
In regards to Heroes Reborn getting more attention than X-Men, of course. That's an event. Also Avengers is Marvel's Premier team. Honestly, Aaron's run has been shambles.
This era won't last forever, those of us who enjoy it are having an X buffet served to us. Those who don't, you've only got about another year until it's over and you'll never get this again.

You can point to sales and say this and that, but it's obviously making money, otherwise they wouldn't introduce new books.

[Castle]

It is not about title supremacy, it is about longevity and marvel itself always comes back to this factor. this was the point of ''Hix-Men''. It did not even take long for many critics to site ''Hix-Men'' as the best marvel comic of the 2010s decade.

Finding it disgusting sounds extreme when we know it is fact that Marvel originally had only about 3 A Lister IP before they started their movies and in a way they still do because you will barely see any references about other marvel IP when it is not MCU related.

Before the 2000s. so now that is 22 years? I think maybe it is best to give respect to other series that has been maintaining their A List status QUO for almost 60 years without the help of disney machined well oiled movies and social media to boost their reputation.

. Basically, Marvel did EVERYTHING possible to keep the X-men at the top of the line for decades. I just find it an utterly bizarre argument to me that Marvel didn't do everything possible to make the X-men what they are today. Don't forget that Marvel literally sacrificed fantastic writers like Micheline and Claremont for the sake of their artists (i.e Mcfarlane and Lee) just because said artists were the biggest names in the industry at the time.

Yes, because Marvel did EVERYTHING in their power to sustain the X-line . It didn't just happen by itself, the X-books found an audience and Marvel did all they could to keep the books to be successful. Chuck Austen was a terrible writer but for some reason, he was considered A-list and wrote a lot of titles from Avengers to JLA to Superman to Eternals to War Machine. He was kind of a big deal for a brief while.

So why couldn't Marvel replace Inhumans with X-Men when they decided to no longer try to ''keep X-MEN on top''. Also why did all those Uncanny Avengers comics and AvX all turn out to be turd, I cant even call this comic classics of the genre like 99% of the Claremont 16 year run and even Whedon's X-Men.

Keeping X-MEN on top if you want to call it that was about genuine quality of substance, I dont think that was the intention when Marvel decided to shift forcus, they were doing it more out of cooperate greed because of the whole movie rights issue. After almost 70 years, X-MEN still maybe has half of their classic stories. Avengers and friends barley have any classic story at least not to the bulk of what xmen or Spiderman has in archive

Rob Liefeld's name alone sold books back in the day. X-Force #1 sold over a million copies and Liefeld's Youngblood sold over a million copies. His Image books (when they shipped were massive). He was arguably the biggest name in comics in the early 1990s.

And yet he is a controversial figure to many xmen fans because for them, they cared more about quality not quantity.

And forget about the discrimination argument, I can't take the X-men movie franchise when they are white-washing characters and "lightening" the skin color of dark skinned African characters.

No this was not the real reason, Halle Berry does not even light skined in the xmen movies. LOL. last I remember. the real reason was when I asked if Black Panther had any David Duke kind of villain in the film either as a direct biopic of the Klansman, or a fictional type or metaphor to show a far more complex political aspect of discrimination in a comic film as X-MEN has done and you could not do so.

Maybe X-MEN went back on top because the series still had far more convincing themes of discrimination to other series that had none but they think can claim it by default because the characters are POC even though the story of discrimination is barely there or is written in such a generic way that even Chuck Austen X-MEN books will be far more interesting to talk about.

There was a lot of toxicity on the X-forums and some of it has come into this thread.

It’s like some fans can’t and don’t want to accept the fact that mainline Marvel books now sell as well or in may cases better than the main X-books. Worse still, they’ve completely warped their views into believing that Marvel wasn’t instrumental in making the X-books into as successful as they are.

Actually there is no toxicity on the X-Forums. To the contrary many Fans of x-men don't even care about the rest of the marvel universe, yes x-men has been that self contained. the toxicity came more from others who only like marvel because they saw movies, people were bringing that to x-books and many xmen fans did not appreciate that because they were strictly comic book people.

The idea that X-Books or X-Forums is toxic is not TRUE.

[Castle]

It's more ridiculous to believe that all properties are equal. Like I said, it's probably structured more like a normal curve where there's a big hump in the middle with many titles that are very creator-dependent but also some titles that consistently excel no matter who's writing/drawing and others that consistently lag behind.

Just one example. I'm a huge DD fan and like him better than Spidey, BUT I completely understand why Spidey would typically sell more than DD, especially to younger demos. They're not equally marketable characters.

No not all properties are equal, they would never be on the basis of substance. If you did not know anything about marvel and only hanged out on cbr forums , you would think X-men comics universe is much bigger than Avengers, GOTG, THOR, Black Panther, Iron Man and the rest of the other marvel universe combined.

So yes, they are not equal. People should wait when those Disney xmen movies start getting released and you would see how high their comics will fly in sales.

Just one example. I'm a huge DD fan and like him better than Spidey, BUT I completely understand why Spidey would typically sell more than DD, especially to younger demos. They're not equally marketable characters

.

Daredevil was already quite established. He is one of the few 3 or 4 marvel brand ( Blade, Punisher) that had a very strong cult following. Also Daredevil is known for darker mature stories, the IP is actually very respected in the comic domain, it is not one of those marvel IPs that you can easily say are just about Disney selling toys. So he may not be a marketable character in that sense but his universe is still far more revered than many other marvel universe not named Spiderman or X-Men.

Shang Chi? Iron Man solo? BW solo? Venom? Guardians of the Galaxy? Thor? DD? Iron Fist? Like... theres books out there that are solid

I have never gotten the sense that all this IPs Marvel really cared about them when it was not movie related. all this IPs are a result of movies not a result of people wanting to read comics in the oldest fashions of ways.

What happened to Iron Man becoming the Batman of Marvel in the 2010s? Marvel did not care cents about expanding his mythology in the comics, they only cared about him in movies. now that his movies are over, he will in the long run likely go back to been a C-List IP.