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  1. #301
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    How many non batbooks does DC put out that readers don't buy for one reason or another? Be it the creative team, the premise or something else entirely. If Bats gets a lot of books it's because there a market for them, his fans want to read more Batman content and are willing to dole out the cash for them. The vast majority of ongoings barely hit 30,000 units sold and that is being generous, while Batman's ongoings routinely top 100,000 easily, so seeing those numbers what is DC to do? They see Batman fans buying his books in droves and fans of other characters keeping their books just above cancellation numbers. So seeing that is DC suppose to greenlight more books for those low selling characters, are they suppose to think that maybe this new book will sell more even if the other does not; that is a bad business model and DC is a business that wants to make money. Batman is a proven seller, that has been proven time and again. His fans have proven that they will pay for more Batman content while fans of other characters have proven they will not, and they have proven that by the low numbers for books that feature their favorite characters. Yeah WW and AM can have billion dollar movies but that doesn't translate into comic sales, so what is the point of being angry at Batman and his fans for. Maybe fans of other characters should show DC how much they want more content for their faves by supporting them more. Hate posting Batman and his fans ain't gonna do anything for other characters and certainly ain't gonna get them more books. Money talks, nothing else matters to DC.

    As far as Batman using other characters to prop him up, honestly how often does that happen and when is the last time anyone can point to that occurring? Batgod hasn't been a thing in forever, Batman hasn't been at the center of any line wide events (usually reserved for Superman); not even the two Dark Knight Metal events were really about Batman, those were basically a WW showcase. Batman gets as good as he gives and lately more often than not he gets more in spades. No one can say with a straight face that in universe Batman is dominating anyone or anything. The DC universe does not revolve around him in anyway, other characters have their own stories completely divorced from anything Batman related, heck Bruce is about to lose/share his unique identity to another unrelated character. All this hate comes off as looking for someone to blame and vent pent up frustration upon. Batman is the convenient scapegoat and whipping boy so he gets the brunt of blame with DC themselves a distant second, it is what it is. But until fans of other characters show DC that they are willing to walk the walk instead of just taking/posting nothing will change. Batman will continue to dominate because his fans strongly support him while other characters will continue to coast and just get by. But one thing that definitely won't change is anti Batman hate threads that complain incessantly about how Batman is the epitome of all that is wrong with DC, and that his fans are greedy because they get rewarded for their strong loyalty with more Batman content. Oh well.
    In few words you are saying that fans of other characters must keep buying despite DC writers gives them crap in their books. I would like to see if Batfans get same of that crap if they keep buying.

  2. #302

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldrake View Post
    I understand what you mean, but those April sales are not ideal to get a real snapshot about Superman. Many Titles that precede him are new books, which usually start well but fizzle out, while Superman remains consistent in his bracket of sales. Otherwise superman is not just less popular than Batman but also of Beta Ray Bill in that April chart. To have a clear indication of the trend about Superman it should be done within six months from now and compare the titles that precede him at that point.
    I take your point, outside of Batman he is probably still DC's second most commercially viable character, but he's not as popular as he used to be, via ticket sales for movies, or merchandise.

    If you look at the history of comic sales, for better or worse, it's pretty obvious Batman has long surpassed Superman in popularity.

  3. #303
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nostalgia View Post
    I take your point, outside of Batman he is probably still DC's second most commercially viable character, but he's not as popular as he used to be, via ticket sales for movies, or merchandise.

    If you look at the history of comic sales, for better or worse, it's pretty obvious Batman has long surpassed Superman in popularity.
    Agreed, at least in comics he still comes second to batman, but also that depends on other characters and what kind of creative teams they have, at times Green Lantern or Flash could take from him that second placing. It depends as I said on the level of the creative teams.
    As his popularity in other media, yeah it's not as it used to be, definitely it can't be blamed on batman. Could be character fatigue or mismanagement. At movie level he suffered from mostly awful takes, with exception of the two Donner movies. Whilst audiences seem now to prefer movies about characters that haven't had much big screen time.

  4. #304
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    How many non batbooks does DC put out that readers don't buy for one reason or another? Be it the creative team, the premise or something else entirely. If Bats gets a lot of books it's because there a market for them, his fans want to read more Batman content and are willing to dole out the cash for them. The vast majority of ongoings barely hit 30,000 units sold and that is being generous, while Batman's ongoings routinely top 100,000 easily, so seeing those numbers what is DC to do? They see Batman fans buying his books in droves and fans of other characters keeping their books just above cancellation numbers. So seeing that is DC suppose to greenlight more books for those low selling characters, are they suppose to think that maybe this new book will sell more even if the other does not; that is a bad business model and DC is a business that wants to make money. Batman is a proven seller, that has been proven time and again. His fans have proven that they will pay for more Batman content while fans of other characters have proven they will not, and they have proven that by the low numbers for books that feature their favorite characters. Yeah WW and AM can have billion dollar movies but that doesn't translate into comic sales, so what is the point of being angry at Batman and his fans for. Maybe fans of other characters should show DC how much they want more content for their faves by supporting them more. Hate posting Batman and his fans ain't gonna do anything for other characters and certainly ain't gonna get them more books. Money talks, nothing else matters to DC.

    As far as Batman using other characters to prop him up, honestly how often does that happen and when is the last time anyone can point to that occurring? Batgod hasn't been a thing in forever, Batman hasn't been at the center of any line wide events (usually reserved for Superman); not even the two Dark Knight Metal events were really about Batman, those were basically a WW showcase. Batman gets as good as he gives and lately more often than not he gets more in spades. No one can say with a straight face that in universe Batman is dominating anyone or anything. The DC universe does not revolve around him in anyway, other characters have their own stories completely divorced from anything Batman related, heck Bruce is about to lose/share his unique identity to another unrelated character. All this hate comes off as looking for someone to blame and vent pent up frustration upon. Batman is the convenient scapegoat and whipping boy so he gets the brunt of blame with DC themselves a distant second, it is what it is. But until fans of other characters show DC that they are willing to walk the walk instead of just taking/posting nothing will change. Batman will continue to dominate because his fans strongly support him while other characters will continue to coast and just get by. But one thing that definitely won't change is anti Batman hate threads that complain incessantly about how Batman is the epitome of all that is wrong with DC, and that his fans are greedy because they get rewarded for their strong loyalty with more Batman content. Oh well.


    -Features any of her support cast in substantial roles? No
    -Features any of her villains in substantial roles? No
    -Builds off events from her own books? No
    -Villain was one created specifically for WW? Nope, Non, Uh-uh, Nada.

    But I guess Diana had some stupid blue highlights in her hair, so hey WW event.
    Last edited by Gaius; 05-29-2021 at 12:02 PM.

  5. #305
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldrake View Post
    Nobody is asking batfans to buy other characters, Why should they? they have their favorite characters and I believe people are fine with that.
    What people are asking is some effort by DC into other characters, NOT AT EXPENSE of Batman. Don't think it's asking much?
    That things won't change in the near future, I agree, but I hope you agree its dumb logic by DC?
    I agree DC should create other titles featuring different characters. I would even buy them, since I'm not a Batman or bust fan in the slightest. But that has zero to do with Batman and his readers, so that really shouldn't be brought up in any of these discussions (not referring to you, BTW).
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!

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  6. #306
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nostalgia View Post
    I take your point, outside of Batman he is probably still DC's second most commercially viable character, but he's not as popular as he used to be, via ticket sales for movies, or merchandise.

    If you look at the history of comic sales, for better or worse, it's pretty obvious Batman has long surpassed Superman in popularity.
    The fact that most of his live action movies have been rehashes of Donner (even Snyder's in his own way) and/or really mediocre haven't helped. There was a lot of hype for MoS pre-release and despite its divisive reputation it still did very well. There was also insane hype for BvS and while that had a lot to do with Batman too, the hype was specifically about seeing the characters together on the big screen. There is interest and the studio isn't very good/consistent on capitalizing it.

    There is also the fact that, yes, his "Boy Scout" persona was seen as outdated in the 80s and that's why Batman started to overtake him. But then they weirdly doubled down on it with the Byrne reboot: he was more of a straightforward Boy Scout there than he ever had been before, with all his interesting quirks stripped away! And that has been the model for the modern character that they can't seem to shake. Morrison's New 52 Action Comics is the model for what a modern Superman should be and the first arc in particular would have been a PERFECT blueprint for a film that would shatter the Boy Scout perception while staying true to the roots of the character. It's a shame MOS began production around the time the first issue was published, but even now I doubt it will be considered for the Abrams reboot. And that's a shame. I can't really fee bad for DC/WB when the modernization is right f***ing there and they just ignore it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post


    -Features any of her support cast in substantial roles? No
    -Features any of her villains in substantial roles? No
    -Builds off events from her own books? No
    -Villain was one created specifically for WW? Nope, Non, Uh-uh, Nada.

    But I guess Diana had some stupid blue highlights in her hair, so hey WW event.
    Yeah, it was a Bat-event with WW as a major guest star. But an actual WW event it was not.

    Her own book was spinning its wheels with filler while that crap was going on.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldrake View Post
    In few words you are saying that fans of other characters must keep buying despite DC writers gives them crap in their books. I would like to see if Batfans get same of that crap if they keep buying.
    Pretty much that is all we keep hearing.

    Buy those books no matter how bad or crappy they are. Then we WONDER why we get Heroes in Crisis, Cry for Justice and other crap stuff.

    Buy those book no matter how bad or crappy they are. If NOT you are NOT a real fan. Black Panther fans endured that for 5 years. John Stewart fans dealt with that too. Static fans got a GOOD helping of it from unfans and the New 52 artist on the book.

    MEANWHILE
    I would like to see if Batfans get same of that crap if they keep buying.
    Well when Rebirth started and Duke Thomas was added to the Batman-I saw Batfans DROP the book over HIM. Including some who bought every issue of Batman since 1980.
    And Duke barely appeared in that book until he was out of it in 2018.

    Nightwing fans DID stop supporting Ric Grayson. However since Nightwing is a Bat book-it did not fully hurt order numbers. Like it would say Green Arrow. So change in direction on that book took longer than it really should have.


    Again I am confused ? Do people wish Batman was in less demand so DC Detective Comics will produce less?
    Okay comic book sales are going up EXCEPT for one part of it-super heroes.

    We got all these Batman books yet sales are NOT going up. Tossing out more is just delaying the Titanic from hitting the iceberg. Because no one is trying to find a solution beyond FLOODING the market with Batman books.

    The market is telling you that variety is needed. Guess who is not listening.

    Dc has other books that sell. Yet they act like it's an accident that some of them are doing that.

    Fans have tried to discuss the books that they like and those threads get derailed with belittlement or bitterness.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post


    -Features any of her support cast in substantial roles? No
    -Features any of her villains in substantial roles? No
    -Builds off events from her own books? No
    -Villain was one created specifically for WW? Nope, Non, Uh-uh, Nada.

    But I guess Diana had some stupid blue highlights in her hair, so hey WW event.
    Just because the events were seeded in Batman's book means nothing, who contributed more to the positive outcome of both Metal events? It certainly wasn't Batman. Yes there were alternate versions of Batman as the villains and it was "bat themed" but our main Batman was not the the overall star of the first event, that fell to WW and to a lesser extent Hawk Girl. Hell he and Superman were trapped in another dimension for most of it. The second was all about WW saving reality from the evil Batman who Laughs so yeah ultimately both events had main Batman in a supporting capacity. He did not save the universe or anything like in the slightest. But I'm sure you would love a WW themed event where Batman kills an evil Wonder Woman and saves all of reality and ascends to become a deity, wouldn't that just be the most awesome thing ever.

  9. #309
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Pretty much that is all we keep hearing.

    Buy those books no matter how bad or crappy they are. Then we WONDER why we get Heroes in Crisis, Cry for Justice and other crap stuff.

    Buy those book no matter how bad or crappy they are. If NOT you are NOT a real fan. Black Panther fans endured that for 5 years. John Stewart fans dealt with that too. Static fans got a GOOD helping of it from unfans and the New 52 artist on the book.

    MEANWHILE


    Well when Rebirth started and Duke Thomas was added to the Batman-I saw Batfans DROP the book over HIM. Including some who bought every issue of Batman since 1980.
    And Duke barely appeared in that book until he was out of it in 2018.

    Nightwing fans DID stop supporting Ric Grayson. However since Nightwing is a Bat book-it did not fully hurt order numbers. Like it would say Green Arrow. So change in direction on that book took longer than it really should have.




    Okay comic book sales are going up EXCEPT for one part of it-super heroes.

    We got all these Batman books yet sales are NOT going up. Tossing out more is just delaying the Titanic from hitting the iceberg. Because no one is trying to find a solution beyond FLOODING the market with Batman books.

    The market is telling you that variety is needed. Guess who is not listening.

    Dc has other books that sell. Yet they act like it's an accident that some of them are doing that.

    Fans have tried to discuss the books that they like and those threads get derailed with belittlement or bitterness.
    Either its done on purpose or they don't understand it - that most books of other characters get mainly crap storylines and even the most loyal of fans starts wavering. Because run after run of crap finally you call it a day. You fork out money to get that stuff, finally you give up.

    Tired of the standard reply "because those characters don't sell or don't work". When we have seen that characters that aren't bat or superman did well in other media, like movies or on TV. Its only in comics that(DC) they can't make it work, simply because they don't lend those characters the talent needed. Nor do they put the effort.
    Now someone will come out and say that DC might lose money if neither A list writers bring sales. First let's start by giving books that talent and than we will see if it might work or not. But they don't even try.
    I will repeat it again, DC should by now know what works or not in these books, yet they keep doing the opposite. If you find a working formula keep it or improve it, not take an opposite direction.

  10. #310
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Just because the events were seeded in Batman's book means nothing, who contributed more to the positive outcome of both Metal events? It certainly wasn't Batman. Yes there were alternate versions of Batman as the villains and it was "bat themed" but our main Batman was not the the overall star of the first event, that fell to WW and to a lesser extent Hawk Girl. Hell he and Superman were trapped in another dimension for most of it. The second was all about WW saving reality from the evil Batman who Laughs so yeah ultimately both events had main Batman in a supporting capacity. He did not save the universe or anything like in the slightest. But I'm sure you would love a WW themed event where Batman kills an evil Wonder Woman and saves all of reality and ascends to become a deity, wouldn't that just be the most awesome thing ever.
    I don't think WW fans as a rule want to see Batman in her events in any capacity period, nor do any reasonable Batman fans demand he get shoved in there when they already have a mountain of books starring him. Aside from the brief cameo by the Nekron possessed Darkseid clone, Batman didn't have any significant role in Blackest Night. It can't be that difficult to just keep the role (if any) small like that.

    So let's save the "I bet you WW fans would like X to happen to Batman in her event" stuff for when we actually get a WW event borne from her mythos, shall we? Until then, this stance is just a pointless "what if?"

  11. #311
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    The Dark Knights Metal stories were Batman events to say otherwise is a stretch
    The J-man

  12. #312
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    I fail to see the logic in not supporting a character you like
    A lot of you and this reasoning are the reason some of your favorite characters have fallen into irrelavency

    If DC gives you a swamp thing book or a blue beetle book, booster gold etc
    BUY IT!

    When you don't it becomes hard for the corporate entity to keep giving the minority chances to let them down.

    That's why we have a sea of Batman content because sales remain steady and consistent. The numbers are always there

    The internet would be happy to see Batman tank because the perception is that DC will prioritize elsewhere
    They won't

    Stop whining about Batman and start cashing in on the opportunities DC does give because the trends are not changing
    40+ years of Batman dominance
    DC has been behind Marvel for 50+

  13. #313
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    I fail to see the logic in not supporting a character you like
    A lot of you and this reasoning are the reason some of your favorite characters have fallen into irrelavency

    If DC gives you a swamp thing book or a blue beetle book, booster gold etc
    BUY IT!

    When you don't it becomes hard for the corporate entity to keep giving the minority chances to let them down.

    That's why we have a sea of Batman content because sales remain steady and consistent. The numbers are always there

    The internet would be happy to see Batman tank because the perception is that DC will prioritize elsewhere
    They won't

    Stop whining about Batman and start cashing in on the opportunities DC does give because the trends are not changing
    40+ years of Batman dominance
    DC has been behind Marvel for 50+
    Its really incredible one has to buy even if given crap so they keep giving you crap -
    DC look they like this keep giving them that - GREAT IDEA

    The corporate is dumb, BECAUSE by now they should know what works or not - very EASY concept that at DC seems alien.
    Besides stop the narrative that these characters have become irrelevant, because with exception of comics they do well, extremely well and some even surpassed batman at box office. So that irrelevant they aren't, they have potential that a dumb company as DC cannot exploit or does not have the abilities to.

  14. #314
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    I fail to see the logic in not supporting a character you like
    A lot of you and this reasoning are the reason some of your favorite characters have fallen into irrelavency

    If DC gives you a swamp thing book or a blue beetle book, booster gold etc
    BUY IT!

    When you don't it becomes hard for the corporate entity to keep giving the minority chances to let them down.

    That's why we have a sea of Batman content because sales remain steady and consistent. The numbers are always there

    The internet would be happy to see Batman tank because the perception is that DC will prioritize elsewhere
    They won't

    Stop whining about Batman and start cashing in on the opportunities DC does give because the trends are not changing
    40+ years of Batman dominance
    DC has been behind Marvel for 50+
    People DO support the characters they like...up to a point. Comics are an expensive hobby and if the writing isn't making the expense worth it, of course people will drop it. They will usually try it out again with a new creative direction or new #1 though. Even Batman fans started dropping the title during Tom King's run, they just had a wealth of other options.

    Spending money on something that you know will bore you or makes you miserable is an exercise in futility. This isn't very useful advice, IMO. Especially as the fans who whine about the anti-Batman whining are in a position where they don't get one title or nothing
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 05-29-2021 at 03:39 PM.

  15. #315
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    The Dark Knights Metal stories were Batman events to say otherwise is a stretch
    It requires more of a stretch than Plastic Man, Elongated Man, Reed Richards, and Mrs. Incredible are capable of.

    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Just because the events were seeded in Batman's book means nothing, who contributed more to the positive outcome of both Metal events? It certainly wasn't Batman. Yes there were alternate versions of Batman as the villains and it was "bat themed" but our main Batman was not the the overall star of the first event, that fell to WW and to a lesser extent Hawk Girl. Hell he and Superman were trapped in another dimension for most of it. The second was all about WW saving reality from the evil Batman who Laughs so yeah ultimately both events had main Batman in a supporting capacity. He did not save the universe or anything like in the slightest. But I'm sure you would love a WW themed event where Batman kills an evil Wonder Woman and saves all of reality and ascends to become a deity, wouldn't that just be the most awesome thing ever.
    This is like saying Blackest Night is a Flash event because Barry Allen has a prominent role in it. Is Zero Hour a Green Arrow event because Ollie had a big notable moment against Parallax in that?

    And I don’t even want Wonder Woman to be friends with Batman, let alone him showing up in any event centered around her.
    Last edited by Gaius; 05-29-2021 at 04:07 PM.

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