Are Batfans the Most Greedy Fanbase of all time?

[Gitagon]

It is what it is. DC and Batman fans do apply circular logic. Give Batman all the focus, multiple books, animated films and series, multiple movies all the way from the 80s and then when he sells more than other characters who had none of that, use that to justify even more bat content. And the cycle goes on and on.

No other DC character can compete when in the end you have to sieve & search all over the place for their content yet Batman content is available everywhere.

I said it with Aquaman, he got a billion in his first outing.

DC should have given him much more focus but he got the ugliest looking cartoon + barely any new titles. He only has two titles in the August solicitations set in his verse.

[The Darknight Detective]

It is what it is. DC and Batman fans do apply circular logic. Give Batman all the focus, multiple books, animated films and series, multiple movies all the way from the 80s and then when he sells more than other characters who had none of that, use that to justify even more bat content. And the cycle goes on and on.

Then what broke the Superman cycle prior to the '90s? He was the king of DC up to that point and had the greater fanbase.

[Jabare]

ask yourselves what DC stands for


then ask yourself who is headlining the book that DC stands for

[dietrich]

My take is they wish Batfans to start buying comics featuring their favorites, but attacking Batman (and indirectly - or even directly - his fans) is just not going to do it. Has anyone seen an example of this happening? Now I have seen people doing the opposite, however, in my ten years on this site.

If fans of non-Bat superheroes want them to succeed, then talk about what makes them special. That could definitely work, especially since I would posit the majority of Batfans enjoy other characters outside of that family. But I have been saying things like this for years now, so I don't expect anything to change in the future. Therefore, all this venting will continue to no avail.

Threads like this are more likely to foster an us v them attitude.

[skyvolt2000]

ask yourselves what DC stands for


then ask yourself who is headlining the book that DC stands for

Then DC nor its fans should have ANY issue when the likes of Moon Girl, Power Rangers, Lumberjanes, Something is Killing Children, The Boys, Invincible and others are beating the crap in sales every book NOT starring Batman.

Then what broke the Superman cycle prior to the '90s? He was the king of DC up to that point and had the greater fanbase.

Easy DC COMICS derailed Superman like they have done with so many others.

How many books did we have starring Superman? Action, Adventures of Superman, Superman Man of Steel & Superman with DC Comics Presents and Adventure Comics?
What did DC do? They stopped making some of those titles and never replaced them.

Along with Superboy, Steel and Supergirl losing their books. Steel has yet to get a new solo since. Superboy-a victim of ownership and Dan Dido issues. Jimmy & Lois barely got anything starring them as solo folks until recent.

His stuff started decreasing.

Meanwhile with Batman-those decreases never happened. Nightwing never lost his book despite Dan. The Bat family's solo books were already in large numbers. Tim, Cass, Stephanie, Jean Paul, Catwoman, Michael Lane, Huntress, Babs, Birds of Prey, Harley, Joker, Batwing, Gotham Central and others. Despite Dan's antics-these guy still prevailed.


Also take account of comic book bins & grab bags. Visit a library shelf. Midtown Comic sales.

Whose books do you think dominate those? BATMAN books. I went to a store and a table BROKE due to weight of just Batman books on it.

So Superman lost his grip.

And at Marvel same thing with Spider-Man (while it's mainly Peter-Bendis era Miles vol 2-3 is trying to get there too) & X-Men. Coates Black Panther, Aaron's Thor, all Carol Danvers and Hulk pre-Ewing are there too.

[The Darknight Detective]

Easy DC COMICS derailed Superman like they have done with so many others.

How many books did we have starring Superman? Action, Adventures of Superman, Superman Man of Steel & Superman with DC Comics Presents and Adventure Comics?
What did DC do? They stopped making some of those titles and never replaced them.

Along with Superboy, Steel and Supergirl losing their books. Steel has yet to get a new solo since. Superboy-a victim of ownership and Dan Dido issues. Jimmy & Lois barely got anything starring them as solo folks until recent.

His stuff started decreasing.

But why did DC derail their biggest moneymaker? They wanted to make less money?

[Nite-Wing]

DC didn't derail Superman
Times and interests changed in the 80s and 90s

The type of superhero that Superman was no longer interested the masses. Superrman 3 came out and sealed his fate imo
Tim Burton's Batman kinda ushered in and cemented Batman's place a top DC with this new mindset. Adam West and campy Batman was gone

Batman more or less became the gritty, dark, noir, personification of darkness and edge right around the time Miller began writing the character. It coincided with new story elements blowing up in comic books across the landscape

Superman at the time was viewed as an anachronism
Less the fault of DC and more the fault of Superman being incapable of adapting to that shift
Same with a lot of other DC characters

[SiegePerilous02]

It is impossible for characters like Dick or Wally to surpass Batman when the company wouldn't even try to promote them in the first place. Not that it'd be likely in the first place, mind you, but a character needs support to rise. Not belittling.

Hell they don't even have to surpass him. Just being peers of equal competence and respect in their own way would be enough, but apparently even that is too much to ask.

There's only so many times you can see Bruce Wayne completely school and humiliate Clark Kent for years before it becomes apparent why Clark will never regain his status as the more popular character of the two in DC's echelon. It's a toxic grasping at milking a cash cow, feeding it every blade of grass you can muster, while you let your other cows starve to death. And also encourage your cash cow to beat up your other cows.

Yep. I think Batman surpassing Superman in popularity was perhaps always a bit inevitable. Superman had 50 or so years at the top and his star was fading a bit. It would have been fine for them to have him bow out gracefully, while another character rose to the top. Especially in the 80s where gritty anti-heroes were in vogue, and Batman was easier to turn into that. But when Superman was #1, the World's Finest partnership was beneficial to Batman through his association with Superman. TDKR was a huge factor in Batman surpassing Superman, and it was done by bringing Superman into the narrative to be shit on while Batman was made to be an edgy badass. It was a blow that Superman has yet to ever fully recover from, and what's more nothing the Superman IP does in return will have the same impact because TDKR came first.

Other characters take hits for Superman's benefit, and it's a genre convention that pops up in various books in general. But even if Batman wasn't the first to bring in another hero for such an ego boost (though I think he was in a modern DC context), it was definitely the biggest. Basically, he's the one who started this shit, so it's hard to feel bad for him if people gripe about him or writers attempt to do the same thing to him that Miller did to Superman.

Why do I care? If why do you care? I see a character I like get constantly bashed and shit on and you ask why I care like it affects you. Why not ask why so many people have an unhealthy hatred of a fictional character. As a Dick fan you can't relate since comic book forums are essentially Dick fanclubs but Bruce fans have to see him get trashed all the time and suck it up and not saying anything because he's the most popular so who cares.

There are Batman fans who have unhealthy hatreds of various Bat-family members and other superheroes. Please don't try to feed us any baloney that there aren't.

Whining about Dick fans comes of as petty because Dick was the character who was brought into Bruce's narrative to to be shot and provide yet more angst for the Angst King that is Batman. And it lasted, what, a whopping two issues? Then Batman carried on as if nothing happened while Dick as left to rot in his title for two years written by gross sexual harrasser Scott Lobdell. Gee, I wonder why there is resentment there? Please don't act like it came out of nowhere.

The Bat-fans are the last people who should ever adopt a "woe is us" attitude just because some people on the internet are venting.

Lex is clearly in charge on any team he's on, the fact that any self respecting supervillain would be ok with being seen as his underling is insulting. The second Lex tried to tell someone like Sinestro what to do he'd be casually launched into the sun. But of course thanks to the writer protection his status grants him that'll never happen to baldy.

Lex commands respect because he's competent and has the balls to go against Superman with nothing but his intellect. The villains aren't scared of him, but he's the Man With the Plan more often than not, and he had least has weapons that have allowed him to go toe to toe with the most powerful superhero on the planet. They AREN'T scared of him, but if they would be it would be more justified than the Joker.

The Joker who explicitly has supervillains telling stories about him to scare each other. That writer fawning isn't present for Lex.

But why did DC derail their biggest moneymaker? They wanted to make less money?

No, they wanted to make money, but they chase trends without much consistent concern for the long game or setting up these IPs for success in the future.

The fact that as a multi-media franchise, they are now mostly Batman or Bat-related content, Superman a distant second and everyone else lumped together dead last is the end result of that.

[hairys]

Again I am confused ? Do people wish Batman was in less demand so DC Detective Comics will produce less?

I think it's fair criticism of DC that 40-50% of the line should not be Batbooks. Yes, we know why that is (Bats sells while many other characters do not), but it's also good business to try to develop your other properties as well; ideally, a publisher can invest and take some chances and have that investment pay off in the future.

That said, these are all symptoms of larger problems anyway. Even if DC tried to push other characters, they would likely fail since their writing talent is so poor and shallow right now. If comics could sell at a higher level, then publishers could take more chances (and hire better writers). The industry itself has to fix distribution so that sales go up and casual would-be buyers don't have to venture to a comic book store to buy floppies.

[Goldrake]

My take is they wish Batfans to start buying comics featuring their favorites, but attacking Batman (and indirectly - or even directly - his fans) is just not going to do it. Has anyone seen an example of this happening? Now I have seen people doing the opposite, however, in my ten years on this site.

If fans of non-Bat superheroes want them to succeed, then talk about what makes them special. That could definitely work, especially since I would posit the majority of Batfans enjoy other characters outside of that family. But I have been saying things like this for years now, so I don't expect anything to change in the future. Therefore, all this venting will continue to no avail.

Nobody is asking batfans to buy other characters, Why should they? they have their favorite characters and I believe people are fine with that.
What people are asking is some effort by DC into other characters, NOT AT EXPENSE of Batman. Don't think it's asking much?
That things won't change in the near future, I agree, but I hope you agree its dumb logic by DC?

We have a prime example of incompetence by DC - that is Aquaman. A character that for decades was a joke, it made a billion and more. Did you see any push by DC to exploit that? and I don't mean in comics. Pls don't tell that they are giving that small cartoons series. With that horrible art, they have the chance to push people away from the character than attracting them towards him.
How can such character ever increase his standing if he is treated like crap by DC? In this same thread you mention why DC would derail a moneymaker? Aquaman's example in not exploiting success is an example of not making money from an opportunity that has been handed to them. They give the impression that they fear that some characters might succeed. I know it may sound as an exaggeration, but is the impression one may be induced to have.
AND TO BE CLEAR it isn't BATMAN"S FAULT or of HIS FANS.

[SiegePerilous02]

Nobody is asking batfans to buy other characters, Why should they? they have their favorite characters and I believe people are fine with that.
What people are asking is some effort by DC into other characters, NOT AT EXPENSE of Batman. Don't think it's asking much?
That things won't change in the near future, I agree, but I hope you agree its dumb logic by DC?

Yes nobody is asking DC/WB to stop making Batman stuff. Just to put more effort into other IPs, and to not needlessly shit on other characters to prop up Batman. Bat-fans don't have to lose anything for either of these things to happen.

The fact that these not unreasonable requests are being met with "well what, do you want DC to stop making Batman content?!" and "other fanbases are worse for reason XYZ!" is kind of funny.

[oneveryfineday]

Then what broke the Superman cycle prior to the '90s? He was the king of DC up to that point and had the greater fanbase.

I’ve seen someone say this:

The honest truth is that there’s a fundamental rift in how fans want Superman stories to be presented and this might be the way out of DC’s decades-long Clark problems.

The post-Byrne rift that saw Batman definitely replace Superman as DC’s best-selling character, as the fandom largely split into groups of those who like to read about a more serious Superman dealing with complex, morally ambiguous modern life or the platonic escapist Superman.

https://twitter.com/PitchAFett/statu...729966090?s=20

I wasn’t even alive during the 80s Byrne reboot, but is there anyone who knows comics history that can give more context? I’m curious about this as well. Although in the modern day I can see that same rift around Zack Snyder’s Superman.

[Captain Nostalgia]

I’ve seen someone say this:



https://twitter.com/PitchAFett/statu...729966090?s=20

I wasn’t even alive during the 80s Byrne reboot, but is there anyone who knows comics history that can give more context? I’m curious about this as well. Although in the modern day I can see that same rift around Zack Snyder’s Superman.

I would argue that it wasn't the split within Superman's fanbase that resulted in Batman's rise to ascendency, but rather Superman's boy scout persona just didn't fit the mold of the new era of gritty superheroes.

The mid 80's to mid 90's saw a shift in comics towards more serious storylines, and a lot of adult themed violence in comics, this was primarily kicked off by Frank Miller's Dark Knight, Batman rode the wave of that popularity and never looked back.

Thankfully that era is over, but it's legacy can be seen in April's comic sales that point to all things Batman. Sadly Superman titles don't even crack the top 50.

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...1/2021-04.html

[The tall man]

How many non batbooks does DC put out that readers don't buy for one reason or another? Be it the creative team, the premise or something else entirely. If Bats gets a lot of books it's because there a market for them, his fans want to read more Batman content and are willing to dole out the cash for them. The vast majority of ongoings barely hit 30,000 units sold and that is being generous, while Batman's ongoings routinely top 100,000 easily, so seeing those numbers what is DC to do? They see Batman fans buying his books in droves and fans of other characters keeping their books just above cancellation numbers. So seeing that is DC suppose to greenlight more books for those low selling characters, are they suppose to think that maybe this new book will sell more even if the other does not; that is a bad business model and DC is a business that wants to make money. Batman is a proven seller, that has been proven time and again. His fans have proven that they will pay for more Batman content while fans of other characters have proven they will not, and they have proven that by the low numbers for books that feature their favorite characters. Yeah WW and AM can have billion dollar movies but that doesn't translate into comic sales, so what is the point of being angry at Batman and his fans for. Maybe fans of other characters should show DC how much they want more content for their faves by supporting them more. Hate posting Batman and his fans ain't gonna do anything for other characters and certainly ain't gonna get them more books. Money talks, nothing else matters to DC.

As far as Batman using other characters to prop him up, honestly how often does that happen and when is the last time anyone can point to that occurring? Batgod hasn't been a thing in forever, Batman hasn't been at the center of any line wide events (usually reserved for Superman); not even the two Dark Knight Metal events were really about Batman, those were basically a WW showcase. Batman gets as good as he gives and lately more often than not he gets more in spades. No one can say with a straight face that in universe Batman is dominating anyone or anything. The DC universe does not revolve around him in anyway, other characters have their own stories completely divorced from anything Batman related, heck Bruce is about to lose/share his unique identity to another unrelated character. All this hate comes off as looking for someone to blame and vent pent up frustration upon. Batman is the convenient scapegoat and whipping boy so he gets the brunt of blame with DC themselves a distant second, it is what it is. But until fans of other characters show DC that they are willing to walk the walk instead of just taking/posting nothing will change. Batman will continue to dominate because his fans strongly support him while other characters will continue to coast and just get by. But one thing that definitely won't change is anti Batman hate threads that complain incessantly about how Batman is the epitome of all that is wrong with DC, and that his fans are greedy because they get rewarded for their strong loyalty with more Batman content. Oh well.

[Goldrake]

I would argue that it wasn't the split within Superman's fanbase that resulted in Batman's rise to ascendency, but rather Superman's boy scout persona just didn't fit the mold of the new era of gritty superheroes.

The mid 80's to mid 90's saw a shift in comics towards more serious storylines, and a lot of adult themed violence in comics, this was primarily kicked off by Frank Miller's Dark Knight, Batman rode the wave of that popularity and never looked back.

Thankfully that era is over, but it's legacy can be seen in April's comic sales that point to all things Batman. Sadly Superman titles don't even crack the top 50.

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...1/2021-04.html

I understand what you mean, but those April sales are not ideal to get a real snapshot about Superman. Many Titles that precede him are new books, which usually start well but fizzle out, while Superman remains consistent in his bracket of sales. Otherwise superman is not just less popular than Batman but also of Beta Ray Bill in that April chart. To have a clear indication of the trend about Superman it should be done within six months from now and compare the titles that precede him at that point.