What's the difference between Azzarello's approach writing WW compared to Simones's or Rucka's?

[kidstandout]

this is the main reason why i think azz's run is on track to be second only to perez.

[miss_terry]

I don't think we can assume that this is true. Rucka's run sadly was left unfinished, and he was far from done with it when he was removed. We have absolutely no idea if the new regime would have been much better than the old one.

Would you happen to know if his removal was due to the re-starting of the issue number back to #1 by any chance, or was it for some other reason?

[Razor Tiara]

I feel like he's writing for a more masculine audience than what Wonder Woman writers typically go for.

I agree with this and think it's to the title's detriment.

[Tangent Man]

I feel like he's writing for a more masculine audience than what Wonder Woman writers typically go for.

I said it at the old CBR, and I'll say it again here: Azzarello wrote the Straight Man's Wonder Woman. Stripped of feminist themes and iconography, replaced with props to lure in the straight male comic fan who historically shunned Wonder Woman.

[Carabas]

Would you happen to know if his removal was due to the re-starting of the issue number back to #1 by any chance, or was it for some other reason?

I don't think anybody knows, including Rucka.
It might be as simple as the guy from The O.C. wanting to write Wonder Woman.

[Dr. Hurt]

Well, when I tried to start reading Rucka's run (first two arcs)... I felt he write Diana more inhuman... Like she loves everyone and she's perfect and really good person and everything. But she's not human, she's above us. And that's kinda off-putting for me, in a way that author clearly try to show me that she's like us, all right, but it was resulted in not a living being and character I would like to care and love, but more in like living Barbie-doll impression in this embassy-dollhouse. And that's strange for me, because, say, Superman in Red Son of Kingdom Come obviously is more that human and story shows his psyche, and this feels much more organic in a way that rest of the world see him that way too (though I like humane Superman and his love for people more, which was shown in STAS). But may this is just strange side-effect of her introduction as "Everybody loves our perfect princess except this bad meanies". I don't know. And there was really weird moment when she threatens poor doctor for being afraid for his family. Man, even Batman is more merciful. I was like "what? Why? Poor guy was threatened, you could offer him some assistance or at least forgive him.". Weird.

Not about WW herself, but Rucka's gods are really petty in their affairs. I prefer "larger-than-approach" in Azzarello's run. Just a side note.

Can't say much about Azzarello's WW. I love his approach. Much more organic overall and believable in her love for everyone. But I've always was bad in analyzing why I like something, but I am better in finding out why I don't like something.
Anyway, I'll continue to read rest of the run, because I really respect Rucka (his Batwoman, Lazarus and hopefully AR-K). May be later I see improvement in what's happening.

Are you... me? I was about to post the same things and then i read your post. And i too have the same problem of being better at defining things i dont like!

We should team up!

[Dr. Hurt]

I said it at the old CBR, and I'll say it again here: Azzarello wrote the Straight Man's Wonder Woman. Stripped of feminist themes and iconography, replaced with props to lure in the straight male comic fan who historically shunned Wonder Woman.

Looking at the WW books of the last 15 years (which are the ones that i have mostly read), i wouldnt say they were any more feministic than Azz's. They were just more blunt about their themes. I guess we often tend to miss Azz's themes because he doesnt bang us over the head with them and because he handles them with his larger than life gods rather than having say... Diana beat up a wifebeater and then give a big speech about it.

I'll give some examples.

1) Hera.
She is a woman who lives under the shadow of her unfaithful husband, but instead of blaming him, she blames everyone else. Over the course of the story, Diana has helped her become more sure of herself and come out of Zeus' shadow. Hera is now friends with one of his bastards and forgave Hippolyta (although she couldnt reverse the spell).

2) Hades.
He is an insecure, self loathing, immature man (which explains his appearence) who cant see clearly because of his character flaws (that wax on his eyes). He couldnt win the heart of a woman, so he abducted one (Persephone). He then tried to force WW to marry him. WW's solution wasnt to beat him up or to kill him, but to heal him. She tried to make him love himself. I guess Azzarello didnt tell us what happened to him and Persephone after that.

3) Zola.
She is a strong and independent woman who despite everything has kept it together. She's also not ashamed of having many sexual partners and doesnt feel threatened by the ubermensch that is Diana or the rest of her super friends.

[Blacksun]

Looking at the WW books of the last 15 years (which are the ones that i have mostly read), i wouldnt say they were any more feministic than Azz's. They were just more blunt about their themes. I guess we often tend to miss Azz's themes because he doesnt bang us over the head with them and because he handles them with his larger than life gods rather than having say... Diana beat up a wifebeater and then give a big speech about it.

I'll give some examples.

1) Hera.
She is a woman who lives under the shadow of her unfaithful husband, but instead of blaming him, she blames everyone else. Over the course of the story, Diana has helped her become more sure of herself and come out of Zeus' shadow. Hera is now friends with one of his bastards and forgave Hippolyta (although she couldnt reverse the spell).

2) Hades.
He is an insecure, self loathing, immature man (which explains his appearence) who cant see clearly because of his character flaws (that wax on his eyes). He couldnt win the heart of a woman, so he abducted one (Persephone). He then tried to force WW to marry him. WW's solution wasnt to beat him up or to kill him, but to heal him. She tried to make him love himself. I guess Azzarello didnt tell us what happened to him and Persephone after that.

3) Zola.
She is a strong and independent woman who despite everything has kept it together. She's also not ashamed of having many sexual partners and doesnt feel threatened by the ubermensch that is Diana or the rest of her super friends.

yes, the feminist themes are in Azzarello's run. He just tell the story and you have to reflect about it. he storytelling is very organic.

[Tangent Man]

Looking at the WW books of the last 15 years (which are the ones that i have mostly read), i wouldnt say they were any more feministic than Azz's. They were just more blunt about their themes. I guess we often tend to miss Azz's themes because he doesnt bang us over the head with them and because he handles them with his larger than life gods rather than having say... Diana beat up a wifebeater and then give a big speech about it.

Azz beats us over the head so brutally with adulterous origins, female rivalry, weak/evil women who need redemption, Amazon sex pirate murders, and Diana placed on a pedestal at odd moments that my simple mind just can't accommodate his "feminist themes".

Yeah, it's a pity that Gail subjected us to depictions of positive, nurturing relationships between women, men who didn't need to overcompensate with macho boorishness because they met a strong woman, and a Diana who showed agency in solving her own problems! Y'know, cuz she had to make a speech about it. Why couldn't she just use the terseness and rip off Brian Michael Bendisisms like Azz?

And don't get me started on Rucka showing nuance and complexity in meta-arcs that DIDN'T need 3 years to finish! Never mind that he modernized the gods FIRST as a metaphysical family of plotters & planners! All discounted because he liked using, y'know, words.

Five years from now, I think Azzarello's run will be recognized as overrated. A nickel always gleams when it sits in a field of pig crap.

[Dr. Hurt]

female rivalry,

First of all, female rivalry is something harmless and very common. Why can men act naturally in comics, but god forbid we show anything bad about women? Women fight with each other, with other men, with children, with their cats. This is life. Why can batman be a douchebag, superman be a nerd, GL be a jock and nobody is complaining about them degrading men?

And in Hera's case it's not about her rivalry with Hippolyta, it's about her being under Zeus and not realising that she should blame him. Like all the women that get beaten up and blame themselves for not cooking the food like he likes it.

And this isnt even something Azz introduced. This is Hera and has always been Hera since antiquity. "Let's kill Hercules, it's his fault Zeus cheated on me." Azz helped her... WITH FEMINISM.

Isnt WW supposed to be a symbol of female liberation? How do you liberate them if they are perfect? Then WW has no role.

weak/evil women who need redemption,

You are missing the point of Hera. Read above.

Amazon sex pirate murders,

I didnt like this either, but i guess Azz's point is not to go full feminazi and "eye for an eye", instead try to achieve real equality. I know the Amazons are usually perfect, but in this case WW works as a bridge between two estranged gods as opposed to the emissary from some enlightened society that came to teach us stuff. In this case both men and women have stuff to learn. The wifebeater needs to be locked up and the wife needs to realise it's not her fault but his.

and Diana placed on a pedestal at odd moments that my simple mind just can't accommodate his "feminist themes". Got it.

Unlike every other WW story where WW isnt on a pedestal?

Yeah, it's a pity that Gail subjected us to depictions of positive, nurturing relationships between women,

According to Gail, that can only happen if women are lesbians.

And in any case, women often fight with each either. It's human nature. I think the age were comics were about reading about perfect speciments doing perfect things is over. And i wouldnt mind some strife and conflict in P.I. From all the backdrops of DC characters, this one is the most boring. Give me a call when we get a WW tv show, much less a tv show about PI without WW, because Gotham is getting one as we speak. So is Constantine, you know, that douchebag who is far from perfect?

men who didn't need to overcompensate with macho boorishness because they met a strong woman,

Lennox, the greek gods, and everyone else besides Orion was acting normal. Orion was turned into a douche because that was the point of using him in this story. Hey, you wanted feministic themes. Why do we need to approach this issue from only one angle, the one where the weak man is ok with being weak? Why not go the other way where the weak, insecure man is acting like a douche trying to make up for his shortcomings, thus making a fool of himself.

[Silvanus]

Azz beats us over the head so brutally with adulterous origins, female rivalry, weak/evil women who need redemption, Amazon sex pirate murders, and Diana placed on a pedestal at odd moments that my simple mind just can't accommodate his "feminist themes". Got it.

Just for the record, I know you don't have a simple mind, and one of the things that I like about these boards is that there are smart people who disagree with me and make challenging arguments.

But a given individual can want and expect different things from particular media, genres, and characters, and what we expect often partially predetermines what we will find; so I think Dr. Hurt may have a point that if people expect a certain kind of overt feminism from Wonder Woman comics they may be less predisposed to detecting the less explicit but still strong feminist themes that some of us see in Azzarello's version. And I'm sure you legitimately see other things that I don't see in the comic. But I don't think, for example, that "weak/evil women who need redemption" is incompatible with feminist themes; there are lots of feminist fictions in which women act in weak or evil ways, perhaps because they've been damaged by patriarchy, and they need redemption in the form of a feminist awakening. One of those feminist fictions is Marston's Wonder Woman; see Priscilla Rich or "Mrs. Dr. Psycho" or Irene (from Villains Inc.).

Five years from now, I think Azzarello's run will be recognized as overrated.

I don't agree--but who knosw? You may be right. We'll see.

[Dr. Hurt]

I'd also like to mention Buffy, a show about a female superhero which was very successful with fans and critics and which is known for its feminist themes. Buffy and Willow fight quite often. Buffy often acts like a bad person and asks for her friends' forgiveness. Willow becomes evil when she gets carried away by her power while Buffy constantly tries to keep her power and humanity in check. Anya is a female demon, now human who is trying to get accustomed to the new conditions of her life. Xander often feels inadequate and useless next to everyone else who has a specific role yet matures to become self confident, get his mind out of the sexual gutter and become the heart of the team (they even hammered it home when he became the heart part of the super-Slayer, with Willow being the spirit, Giles the mind, Buffy and hands and strength).

So... can we move on from the simplistic "women are good, men are bad, MMM'KAY?" type of storytelling when it comes to WW? Every other comic seems to have moved on to more complex ways of dealing with characters and themes. It will really help WW if we treat her and her cast as normal people and not as avatars for all womankind and mankind.

[Blacksun]

Many people didn't pick up that orion doesn't have a problem with WW gender. His Only problem is being attracted to her and not knowing how to court her. He respect her as leader/warrior and even tried to cheer up WW.

[Tangent Man]

Well, if not so, then you're just ignoring many of his feministic themes. First of all, female rivalry is something harmless and very common. Why can men act naturally in comics, but god forbid we show anything bad about women? Women fight with each other, with other men, with children, with their cats. This is life. Why can batman be a douchebag, superman be a nerd, GL be a jock and nobody is complaining about them degrading men?

The notion of women as "Natural Rivals" not only discounts the dimensions of relationships between women, it's a motif traditionally (and rightly) recognized as ANTI-Feminist.

And in Hera's case it's not about her rivalry with Hippolyta, it's about her being under Zeus and not realising that she should blame him. Like all the women that get beaten up and blame themselves for not cooking the food like he likes it.

And this isnt even something Azz introduced. This is Hera and has always been Hera since antiquity. "Let's kill Hercules, it's his fault Zeus cheated on me." Azz helped her... WITH FEMINISM.

Except that Azz came extremely late to the WW Game, because this was already explored--and RESOLVED--by Perez way back in the 80's in the "Challenge of The Gods". Hera saw the futility of her dysfunctional cycle, and chose to break it. Largely because she was inspired by Wonder Woman & the Amazons...and it didn't take 3 damn years for that to happen!

Even Rucka went there by making Hera destroy Jiminez' Paradise Island, a choice many readers protested! Perhaps if the most ardent Azz-Fans better understood WW history, they'd recognize that he isn't quite so visionary.

Isnt WW supposed to be a symbol of female liberation? How do you liberate them if they are perfect? Then WW has no role. You are missing the point of Hera. Read above. I didnt like this either, but i guess Azz's point is not to go full feminazi and "eye for an eye", instead try to achieve real equality. I know the Amazons are usually perfect, but in this case WW works as a bridge between two estranged gods as opposed to the emissary from some enlightened society that came to teach us stuff. In this case both men and women have stuff to learn. The wifebeater needs to be locked up and the wife needs to realise it's not her fault but his. Unlike every other WW story where WW isnt on a pedestal?

Feminist does NOT equal "Feminazi". Also, the problem with your scenario is that Azz presents a paradigm of "Wonder Woman = Perfect" and "All Other Females = A Fallen, Broken Species (Goddesses Included [Especially?])". The best Wonder Woman stories present women as affirming, positive, strong, fallible, weak, negative--well-rounded. Paula started as a cartoonish Nazi villain, and became one of Wonder Woman's most trusted allies. Etta was flaky, but fun, spirited, and loyal. She grew into SO much more under Gail! Julia started as a strong, if cranky, academic who woke up to unrealized possibilities of new intellectual and spiritual frontiers. Myndi meant well, if too greedy and self-serving at times, and self-destructed. Hippolyta & the Amazons were a strong, loving support network, if smothering and isolationist at other turns.

Women aren't just "all good" or "all bad". Azz reduces women to an unflattering, and, yes, misogynistic dichotomy! Many of you complained that "Wonder Woman was TOO perfect before Flashpoint". What is she now, though, as the sole beacon of Womanhood in a dark, churning world of Patriarchal oppression and broken women? These stories clearly place Diana on a pedestal--you can't have it both ways!

According to Gail, that can only happen if women are lesbians.

That's such an intellectually dishonest statement, and you know it! Were Gail's Diana, Donna, and Cassie lesbians? The Birds of Prey seemed pretty Hetero to ME!

And in any case, women often fight with each either. It's human nature. I think the age were comics were about reading about perfect speciments doing perfect things is over. And i wouldnt mind some strife and conflict in P.I. From all the backdrops of DC characters, this one is the most boring. Give me a call when we get a WW tv show, much less a tv show about PI without WW, because Gotham is getting one as we speak. So is Constantine, you know, that douchebag who is far from perfect? Lennox, the greek gods, and everyone else besides Orion was acting normal. Orion was turned into a douche because that was the point of using him in this story. Hey, you wanted feministic themes. Why do we need to approach this issue from only one angle, the one where the weak man is ok with being weak? Why not go the other way where the weak, insecure man is acting like a douche trying to make up for his shortcomings, thus making a fool of himself.

Actually, not everyone enjoys pseudo-nihilism in their comic book entertainment. Some of us enjoy optimism and fun, as options in a well-balanced "diet". You can have those without the story reading as saccharine or bland. Fighting might be natural, but it's also natural to enjoy affirming relationships, too.

[Tangent Man]

Just for the record, I know you don't have a simple mind, and one of the things that I like about these boards is that there are smart people who disagree with me and make challenging arguments.

But a given individual can want and expect different things from particular media, genres, and characters, and what we expect often partially predetermines what we will find; so I think Dr. Hurt may have a point that if people expect a certain kind of overt feminism from Wonder Woman comics they may be less predisposed to detecting the less explicit but still strong feminist themes that some of us see in Azzarello's version. And I'm sure you legitimately see other things that I don't see in the comic. But I don't think, for example, that "weak/evil women who need redemption" is incompatible with feminist themes; there are lots of feminist fictions in which women act in weak or evil ways, perhaps because they've been damaged by patriarchy, and they need redemption in the form of a feminist awakening. One of those feminist fictions is Marston's Wonder Woman; see Priscilla Rich or "Mrs. Dr. Psycho" or Irene (from Villains Inc.).



I don't agree--but who knosw? You may be right. We'll see.

1. True, but at the same time, Marston also presented readers with Hippolyta, Mala, Etta & the Holliday Girls. Marston compared positive "femininity" with the negative kind that resulted from patriarchal control. The women you described were victims of patriarchy, and/or otherwise made sick by the baser values of socialization in "Man's World". Wonder Woman & friends offered a positive counterpoint, not only because of Diana's innate goodness, but because she came from a world of loving, mutually-respectful relationships.

See the difference?

2. I think the rosy tint will diminish by then.