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  1. #211
    Astonishing Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunkelzahn View Post
    So you don't think what happened in Iron Man 3 was a big threat? Killing a lot of people and getting his man to become President of the USA looks like a very big threat to me. The only thing that changed during the movie was who was really behind this.
    .
    No it wasn't. the threat level felt more like mars attacks.

    And regarding why the Eternals did not interfere before I would sugest something really new. We wait until we get more information before making stuff up
    Yes, this is why what we are doing here is... speculating, reason I asked, how is the threat level? the trailer does not even make it seem its like hydra kind of threat level and I know how people were into that with phase 1 of marvel with the heil hydra stuff that was a very popular meme. however I think this is also the good example how maybe again, phase 1 marvel always felt like the strongest of the era even from the trailers.

  2. #212
    Fantastic Member Jack The Tripper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    it's bias you think I am right about the Toad scene but not right about the Mandarin scene when that is worse in story because the trailers and synopsises for Iron Man 3 so far has established that the Mandarin was supposed to be a big threat of James Bond meets Mission Impossible CIA level also backed up by the fact that although Iron Man does not have a strong rogues gallery in the comics, the mandarin was among his better villains, so the movie making him into a joke was a bad idea that derailed the entire movie and even destroyed the tone of the film completely.

    To say that that is not bad but the toad joke or martha scene that were just one off and did not even harm the overall reception or tone of those films as the mandarin did with Iron Man 3 is 100% bias.

    You can cut the toad line joke in xmen 1 and it wont hurt that film or change anything about that film. you can still make some sense of the martha scene and just say the execution was poor but we get what Snyder was trying to, have them bond because both can say they have a human mother who was in danger, there was nothing to save, understand or take away from the Mandarin twist.



    I don't feel this is been standard. a lot of fans agreed with marvel itself that they were wrong with the mandarin twist, when marvel built it up as something else and accepted or understood marvel's apology that they got it wrong, it makes no sense that can still be defended, when marvel cannot even defend it themselves and have said, sorry to fans of the joke that did not land in Iron Man 3 but instead cost a big backlash.

    https://www.cinemablend.com/new/How-...sh-131427.html
    How Marvel Reacted To Iron Man 3 Villain Backlash


    Lastly my opinions are not shallow, this is the reason I look beyond the narrative that comic films are just about humor, action, colourful costumes or generic cinematography. The vampire genre is like the comic genre , it evolved and every fiction had to be looked at on that same level of where a genre has been or already been. this is why humor has become very problematic not just in MCU but also DCU but I think some fans now calling out too much humor even with this Eternals trailer is a good thing because maybe marvel will listen and tone the humor down.
    Well no, because the Mandarin scene is funny and itís a twist - itís not just a throwaway joke or a suspect piece of dialogue, it is a plot point - therefore itís considerably different to both the Toad joke and the Martha scene (note as well that I was not comparing IM3 with either of those scenes. The problem with the IM3 twist isnít the twist itself, itís that the twist led to a forgettable villain in Aldrich Killian (would have been more interesting if it was Maya Hansen). However, the twist itself was funny and unexpected. Itís funny to argue that itís a bad twist because of Mandarinís character in the comics because that sounds like you arenít judging the film on its own merits, but your own pre-conceived notions of what the film should be. Also judging films against what marketing material showed us doesnít matter when theyíre trying to avoid giving away a twist.

    Itís biased of you to claim that a twist is ďobjectivelyĒ bad because itís humourous and is different to the source material. Because those things donít automatically turn a film from good to bad - the only people truly upset by the twist were comic fans who were biased due to their affection for the source material - and thatís okay, but donít claim itís objective. ANYWAY I was comparing the Eternals joke to the Martha/Toad scene, so to bring it back on topic, I donít think itís as egregious a line as those two. That could change in context of the actual movie, but right now it should only be taken as a stinger in a trailer.

    The Ďapologyí Marvel gave did nothing to undo IM3, it just set up more stories to explore down the road. Every one loved Trevor. Lol Iím not gonna talk anymore about IM3 because itís off topic, but you need to understand that comic book fans/boards arenít the majority of MCU fans.

    I said your opinion on fans of the MCU/people that you disagree with is very shallow.

  3. #213
    Astonishing Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack The Tripper View Post
    Well no, because the Mandarin scene is funny and it’s a twist - it’s not just a throwaway joke or a suspect piece of dialogue, it is a plot point - therefore it’s considerably different to both the Toad joke and the Martha scene (note as well that I was not comparing IM3 with either of those scenes. The problem with the IM3 twist isn’t the twist itself, it’s that the twist led to a forgettable villain in Aldrich Killian (would have been more interesting if it was Maya Hansen). However, the twist itself was funny and unexpected. It’s funny to argue that it’s a bad twist because of Mandarin’s character in the comics because that sounds like you aren’t judging the film on its own merits, but your own pre-conceived notions of what the film should be. Also judging films against what marketing material showed us doesn’t matter when they’re trying to avoid giving away a twist.

    It’s biased of you to claim that a twist is “objectively” bad because it’s humourous and is different to the source material. Because those things don’t automatically turn a film from good to bad - the only people truly upset by the twist were comic fans who were biased due to their affection for the source material - and that’s okay, but don’t claim it’s objective. ANYWAY I was comparing the Eternals joke to the Martha/Toad scene, so to bring it back on topic, I don’t think it’s as egregious a line as those two. That could change in context of the actual movie, but right now it should only be taken as a stinger in a trailer.

    The ‘apology’ Marvel gave did nothing to undo IM3, it just set up more stories to explore down the road. Every one loved Trevor. Lol I’m not gonna talk anymore about IM3 because it’s off topic, but you need to understand that comic book fans/boards aren’t the majority of MCU fans.

    I said your opinion on fans of the MCU/people that you disagree with is very shallow.
    The Mandarin scene is not funny, it is not supposed to be funny. that is like saying a terrorist that is supposed to kill and threaten people is now magically a funny guy that is in a twist... is a harmless person. this is why the twist outraged many fans because it took what should be a serious big deal as terrorism and made it into a joke. I wont forget, when I first saw the mandarin from the trailers, he looked liked an Osama Bin Laden kind of character, so I was expecting Iron Man 3 to be a film more like a comic film version of Flight 93. That was the standard I had for the film.

    Please dont defend that to me, that the Mandarin was funny. that is like the equivalent of a person defending a twist about what should have been comic mirrorverse of the Holocaust that got turned it into a joke in an XMEN film and saying, oh that was funny. that factually does not happen because any film that hyped up those themes even from the trailers can never have that sort of twist in the actual film please see X2/DOPF as factual proof. It will rightly also enrage fans as the Mandarin twist did.

    I said your opinion on fans of the MCU/people that you disagree with is very shallow.
    None of my opinions are shallow, most of times I don't even disagree with many other fans, I just tell fans more about the source material if they dont know much about it or give them more knowledge about how comic books have expanded in films. this is why I have many times told other fans, not to worry too much about costumes but focus more on the story or characters arcs since that plays a bigger part in making a good film than what they put on. The colourful costumes won't matter much with Eternals if the film just ends up as bland as Captain Marvel.
    Last edited by Castle; 06-11-2021 at 06:49 AM.

  4. #214
    Fantastic Member Jack The Tripper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    The Mandarin scene is not funny, it is not supposed to be funny. that is like saying a terrorist that is supposed to kill and threaten people is now magically a funny guy that is in a twist... is a harmless person. this is why the twist outraged many fans because it took what should be a serious big deal as terrorism and made it into a joke. I wont forget, when I first saw the mandarin from the trailers, he looked liked an Osama Bin Laden kind of character, so I was expecting Iron Man 3 to be a film more like a comic film version of Flight 93. That was the standard I had for the film.

    Please dont defend that to me, that the Mandarin was funny. that is like the equivalent of a person defending a twist about what should have been comic mirrorverse of the Holocaust that got turned it into a joke in an XMEN film and saying, oh that was funny. that factually does not happen because any film that hyped up those themes even from the trailers can never have that sort of twist in the actual film please see X2/DOPF as factual proof. It will rightly also enrage fans as the Mandarin twist did.



    None of my opinions are shallow, most of times I don't even disagree with many other fans, I just tell fans more about the source material if they dont know much about it or give them more knowledge about how comic books have expanded in films. this is why I have many times told other fans, not to worry too much about costumes but focus more on the story or characters arcs since that plays a bigger part in making a good film than what they put on. The colourful costumes won't matter much with Eternals if the film just ends up as bland as Captain Marvel.
    The twist was pretty funny though imo, and Killian was still the terrorist.

    I don’t think you get what I’m saying (especially seeing as all the people on this forum are comic fans), but I’ve said my piece.
    Last edited by Jack The Tripper; 06-11-2021 at 07:38 AM.

  5. #215
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    "The Mandarin scene is NOT FUNNY!"

    "I did not personally find the Mandarin scene funny."

    Is there an objective difference in these two statements?
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  6. #216
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    The Mandarin scene is not funny, it is not supposed to be funny. that is like saying a terrorist that is supposed to kill and threaten people is now magically a funny guy that is in a twist... is a harmless person. this is why the twist outraged many fans because it took what should be a serious big deal as terrorism and made it into a joke.
    Kinda funny how, outside of Slattery the actor twist, nothing about the Mandarin scheme is played for laughs. You sure we saw the same movie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    I wont forget, when I first saw the mandarin from the trailers, he looked liked an Osama Bin Laden kind of character, so I was expecting Iron Man 3 to be a film more like a comic film version of Flight 93. That was the standard I had for the film.
    And this is why you are incapable of objective assessment of movies. Newsflash; it doesn't really matter what you wanted or expected the movie to be. All that matters is if the movie is the best version of what it's trying to be. You don't have to like it, but there's a world of difference between "it wasn't for me" and "it was bad because of these craftsmanship points." So, if you don't like the MCU movies because you want your movies to have more drama, that's fine, but it's high time to stop insisting that they're objectively bad because they didn't pander to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Please dont defend that to me, that the Mandarin was funny. that is like the equivalent of a person defending a twist about what should have been comic mirrorverse of the Holocaust that got turned it into a joke in an XMEN film and saying, oh that was funny. that factually does not happen because any film that hyped up those themes even from the trailers can never have that sort of twist in the actual film please see X2/DOPF as factual proof. It will rightly also enrage fans as the Mandarin twist did.
    And this's the other reason you have the reputation for being a joke around here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    None of my opinions are shallow, most of times I don't even disagree with many other fans, I just tell fans more about the source material if they dont know much about it or give them more knowledge about how comic books have expanded in films.
    Unless it's opposite day, I wouldn't be so sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    ...this is why I have many times told other fans, not to worry too much about costumes but focus more on the story or characters arcs since that plays a bigger part in making a good film than what they put on. The colourful costumes won't matter much with Eternals if the film just ends up as bland as Captain Marvel.
    I'd mostly agree, however, seeing as you've proven time and again that you don't understand how good writing (story and characters) works, I don't think you're going to be able to give it a fair shake when the times comes. (Also, I'd have to say that I'd hope the Eternals get acting quality along the lines of Captain Marvel. Heck, for that matter, I think I'd rather see the Eternals have the more understated comic relief along the lines of Captain Marvel and Winter Solider then the broader comedy of the Thor and Guardians of the Galaxy movies.)
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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  7. #217
    Astonishing Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Kinda funny how, outside of Slattery the actor twist, nothing about the Mandarin scheme is played for laughs. You sure we saw the same movie.
    I would rather stick to how Marvel itself reacted to the backlash of the Mandarin.
    And this is why you are incapable of objective assessment of movies. Newsflash; it doesn't really matter what you wanted or expected the movie to be. All that matters is if the movie is the best version of what it's trying to be. You don't have to like it, but there's a world of difference between "it wasn't for me" and "it was bad because of these craftsmanship points." So, if you don't like the MCU movies because you want your movies to have more drama, that's fine, but it's high time to stop insisting that they're objectively bad because they didn't pander to you.
    This is not what generally happens in the writers room though.
    And this's the other reason you have the reputation for being a joke around here.
    I think I will let the moderators reply to this one because I am sure we are not allowed to insult other people by calling them jokes.

    Unless it's opposite day, I wouldn't be so sure.
    This is not true about me as I did in this thread when I explained to some who agreed with me about how comic stories have evolved in movie making beyond colourful costumes and humor.
    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...re-X-men(2000)
    I will kindly ask to stop saying things about me that are not true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack The Tripper View Post
    The twist was pretty funny though imo, and Killian was still the terrorist.

    I don’t think you get what I’m saying (especially seeing as all the people on this forum are comic fans), but I’ve said my piece.
    Honestly I think this topic of the Mandarin and the humor has now gotten boring, Artistically from a writing place, I hope marvel does not have a Mandarin twist in Eternals or worse Shang Chi because that film is suppose to have the real Mandarin.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shang-..._the_Ten_Rings

    Honestly if Marvel does a Mandarin twist again in any future films, I think it would really hurt their Phase 4 era.
    Last edited by Castle; 06-11-2021 at 12:24 PM.

  8. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Honestly if Marvel does a Mandarin twist again in any future films, I think it would really hurt their Phase 4 era.
    If Marvel is afraid to have twists in their plots because they think fans might be mad, that is what would really hurt their Phase 4 era.

  9. #219
    Fantastic Member Jack The Tripper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Honestly I think this topic of the Mandarin and the humor has now gotten boring, Artistically from a writing place, I hope marvel does not have a Mandarin twist in Eternals or worse Shang Chi because that film is suppose to have the real Mandarin.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shang-..._the_Ten_Rings

    Honestly if Marvel does a Mandarin twist again in any future films, I think it would really hurt their Phase 4 era.
    As long as the twist is done well it shouldn’t matter

  10. #220
    Mighty Member green_garnish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Honestly if Marvel does a Mandarin twist again in any future films, I think it would really hurt their Phase 4 era.
    Wasn't the Mandarin twist part of the first solo superhero film to make $1 billion?

  11. #221
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by green_garnish View Post
    Wasn't the Mandarin twist part of the first solo superhero film to make $1 billion?
    Yes but half a dozen Iron Man comic fans didn't like it.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  12. #222
    Astonishing Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Yes but half a dozen Iron Man comic fans didn't like it.


    Quote Originally Posted by green_garnish View Post
    Wasn't the Mandarin twist part of the first solo superhero film to make $1 billion?
    No it was not. The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises were the first solo superhero films to make over 1 billion in 2008 and 2012. Iron Man 3 came out in 2013. This is a box office fact not an opinion.

    Secondly we are not talking about money and this is what defines shallowness, when a film's box office is quickly inserted in what is a debate more about the story telling or forwarded themes shown in the trailers. Iron Man 3 making a billion did not change the issues that the Mandarin twist was problematic. Also as I have already predicted Eternals could have made over a billion and more than Captain Marvel if not for the COVID Crises, if there was another sort of Mandarin twist in Eternals, there will still be a similar kind of backlash with the billion of dollars because Feige and Chloe Zhao would have created a ripple effect.
    Last edited by Castle; 06-11-2021 at 03:51 PM.

  13. #223
    Mighty Member green_garnish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    No it was not. The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises were the first solo superhero films to make over 1 billion in 2018 and 2012. Iron Man 3 came out in 2013. This is a box office fact not an opinion. dollars.
    Fair enough. I didn't bother to do the numbers research first. However it did do twice the box office of the previous film in the franchise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Secondly we are not talking about money and this is what defines shallowness, when a film's box office is quickly inserted in in what is about is debate more about the story telling. Iron Man 3 making a billion did not change the fact that the Mandarin twist was problematic. Also as I have already predicted Eternals could have made over a billion and more than Captain Marvel if not for the COVID Crises, if there was another sort of Mandarin twist, the will still be a backlash with the billion of dollars.
    Now this I can agree with. There is little that demonstrates your shallowness more than dismissing demonstrative proof of public opinion.

    You keep saying you know more than the rest of us about movie making and story telling, and backing it up with words that demonstrate how ridiculous such an assertion is. You have a great habit of proving your point in Trumpian terms like "many people think" when what you really mean is 'I think, and that means most other people must think so too." Or "Honestly" when you really mean "Just listen to me, I know what I'm talking about."

    Your consistent, repetitive condescension of any opinion that isn't yours (because you insist your opinions are facts) is the very definition of shallow.
    Last edited by green_garnish; 06-11-2021 at 03:59 PM.

  14. #224
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    The box office is pertinent because it shows the Mandarin twist did not turn off the general audience in any way. It was problematic for you, it was problematic for some other Iron Man fans, but that was a small minority view. We are talking about the story and almost every other poster here had no problem with the Mandarin twist. That is a fact. Are you calling all of us shallow because we thought it was a good twist AND funny?
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  15. #225
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    I would rather stick to how Marvel itself reacted to the backlash of the Mandarin.
    Like how they just moved on to the next film?

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    This is not what generally happens in the writers room though.
    Which is nether here nor there to what I was saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    I think I will let the moderators reply to this one because I am sure we are not allowed to insult other people by calling them jokes.
    I'm sorry I said that instead of something to the effect of: "It's statements like this that don't lead me to believe you."

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    This is not true about me as I did in this thread when I explained to some who agreed with me about how comic stories have evolved in movie making beyond colourful costumes and humor.
    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...re-X-men(2000)
    I will kindly ask to stop saying things about me that are not true.
    Those threads are the very reason I don't believe your opinion is an objective one.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

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