Dumbledore vs Sauron

[Sharpandpointies]

Okay, so this could get a little long.

For starters, there are indications Sauron wasn't quite a full-powered Ainur as he had been before he tied himself to Morgoth, specifically in that there were issues with him just tossing around power or creating things. Like the Balrogs, he was cut off from Ilúvatar; like Morgoth, great expenditures of power would diminish him because he would need to put some of his own power into his creations. This was (one of) the reason he went with making the Ring - by putting his own power into the Ring, he could then wield that power without fear of it diminishing, in order to control and dominate (it also gave him power over the other Rings in a direct way, which ties into his need/desire to control and dominate other races - take control of the leaders, control the race), or make things (he laid the foundations of Barad-dûr with the Ring's power, tying them to the Ring...cost him nothing, and they would endure as long as the Ring endured). It also made an anchor for him; if his body were slain, so long as the Ring existed it would hold his power and he'd be cool.

He was smarter than Morgoth in that respect, Morgoth being a guy who (especially in Tolkien's reimagining of his work) peed all over the world in order to corrupt it and mark it as his territory, and squandered a chunk of his power in the doing.

And Sauron discovered back in the First Age he could be beaten. Lúthien and Huan demonstrated that rather dramatically, back when Sauron still had the guts to try to do the work himself. THEN he got to watch the Armies of the West show up and absolutely kick all hell out of Morgoth's supposedly unbeatable forces. He was forced to surrender and beg Eöwnë for mercy.

Then he runs into the Númenoreans (for like, the second time, they've already helped wreck his armies once), and their armies are so huge he realizes his forces can't win against them, and he really, really doesn't want to fight them personally; if his own forces get wiped out, how's he going to rule? And it's perfectly possible for him to get beaten -- I mean, Númenoreans have stuff like Narsil, First Age weapons, and are perfectly capable of making other things that we would consider 'magic' (Merry and Pippen's blades, for example). Also, Sauron is more of a schemer and controller than a being like a Balrog that runs around beating people over the head with a flaming sword, and he sees a chance to corrupt Númenor for his own purposes, the easy way (from within).

This isn't conjecture on my part - I'm laying a foundation to make a point, it'll be backed up by stuff from the books.

Then Númenor gets annihilated, his body is slain, he's forced to float his incorporeal ass back to Mordor and make himself a new body. And he loses the ability to take on a fair form. Forever. Bit of a shocker, I imagine.

Then comes the War of the Last Alliance.

Sauron does NOT want to take the field. This is explicit in the writing. He's not feeling terribly confident in the situation, there are First Age Elves out there with First Age weapons, there are Númenorean heroes...he eventually comes out after a seven-year siege when it becomes clear that things are all-but lost for his forces.

He gets killed.

Without the Ring, he then is forced to spend a HUGE amount of time creating a new body, and then even more time getting his power back. This is the part noted in Lord of the Rings, in The Council of Elrond, where it's pointed out that Sauron's big failure this time is being TOO cautious. His enemies are only a shadow of what they used to be: the power of Númenor is utterly broken (by late Third Age, with Arnor destroyed thanks to his machinations and Gondor weakened by the same), and the Eldar are weaker than they ever have been. But still, having suffered failure after failure, and loss after loss, AND not having his Ring, he's overly cautious (it's a thing in Tolkien that evil eventually becomes craven, because it worries only about itself). He moves too slowly. If Sauron had started up a blitz at this point, he likely would have simply rolled over Gondor (as he was doing in Return of the King) and then...maaan, who is left? Galadriel can't take on an army of 100K orcs herself while they're burning down Lothlórien around her. Imladris really has no 'army'. Rohan would be nothing to Sauron, all by itself. He already has Umbar/Harad and the East. What's left? The Rangers?

But no, he doesn't. Basically, Sauron has become afraid.

Monstering around Middle Earth as a dark lord doesn't give him the power to RULE it - he needs to take and hold - and exposes him, again, to failure and potentially getting diminished again for a long period of time (if it comes to a personal fight, there's still the White Council to deal with, and they're not exactly a bunch of wimps). Without his Ring. Then there's stuff like Aragorn seizing control of the Palantir from him and waving Narsil reforged in his face ('Hey, remember this?') to stress him out.

There's also the vague risk of the Valar doing something. I mean, last time Sauron got personally involved and started shooting his mouth off at the Valar, Ilúvatar kind of broke the world. Sauron doesn't 100% KNOW that the Valar won't send over Tulkas to kick his ugly butt if he starts stomping around like mini-Godzilla. <-- THIS part is conjecture; maybe Sauron knew full-well the Valar wouldn't get 100% involved any more, I don't know, but if it were me I'd be worried about Tulkas doing the Kool-Aid Man thing on my front gates.

But WITH the Ring? He's not so worried any more (not about the Valar, mind, but other things). Getting killed suddenly seems ridiculously unlikely with his enhanced power.

I will grant that it's possible Sauron isn't yet at his best in Lord of the Rings, but we don't really have any real idea where he stands at that point. *shrugs*

Okay, now on to power levels.

Tolkien on the subject of Sauron and his Ring, from Letter 131.

[Sauron] had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants.

Basically, Sauron without his Ring is still essentially doing fine. The reason he's slowly gaining power through thousands of years before Lord of the Rings, and only feels confident enough to openly declare himself in the final century before the story starts, is because he was horribly weakened by being 'killed' and not having his Ring with him to assist putting Humpty back together again. ^_^ Also sadly lacking in 'gigantic armies'.

Again, has he gotten the gas tank back to 'Full' by the time of Lord of the Rings? Good question. But it's interesting to note that he's perfectly capable of exerting his will over an army of his servants over a great distance.

Edit: the above quote points out another reason why Sauron wouldn't want to take the field, himself. He doesn't know where his Ring is. It's not destroyed, but ANYONE could have it. If he takes the field, and then Galadriel shows up wearing HIS Ring, and with the White Council behind her...that's a big problem. He'd much rather have any Ringbearer declare themselves while he's safely hiding in Barad-Dûr, and can send an army to crush them.

Tolkien himself was pretty clear (again, Letter) that Gandalf the White was the only person who could managed to master the Ring then defeat Sauron, but Sauron is plauged by doubt and isn't the writer of the story; for all he knows, Galadriel, Saruman, or some other luminary could manage it.

[Sharpandpointies]

There's even some indication that the Ring itself might be 'responsible' for Sauron's fear. Its loss gnaws at him, he continually seeks it, he is terrified it will be seized and used by another.

Like any other Ringbearer.

We've seen what happens when people who have been Ringbearers lose the Ring. The idea of it consumes them, becomes a drive they cannot resist. The longer they wear it, the worse it becomes. It's perfectly possible that Sauron, himself, struggles under something similar - the loss of his Ring, the greater part of his power, creates a single-minded drive toward getting it back. Without it, he cannot be confident.

Edit: this thread is making me poke around more into areas of the Lord of the Rings lore I've been less-interested in (Second Age, Sauron) or have forgotten. :)

On the subject of Sauron in his strongest form - I guess that would be Second Age Sauron, with Ring, before the Fall of Númenor. Mairon or Annatar guise. He would have certainly not 'lost' any of his power due to having been squooshed, and also been holding the Ring to enhance his power further.

Alternately, one might argue that 'Most Powerful Sauron' would be 'Sauron as one of the Ainur', before his corruption by Melkor. In which case - based on him being one of the greatest of the Maiar (presumably below Eönwë and other really superb Maiar) - he curbstomps everyone here, without even the concern about his body getting destroyed. ^_^

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Hottake.

Tulkas is the Valar equivalent Wayne from Letterkenny.

[Sharpandpointies]

Hottake.

Tulkas is the Valar equivalent Wayne from Letterkenny.

...I wish I was familiar. ^_^

[Nik Hasta]

...I wish I was familiar. ^_^

This is literally the only thing I've seen of Letterkenny.



I have nothing else to contribute. Wayne is the gentleman asking about salt and pepper.

[big_adventure]

Well-researched and interpreted.

The only thing is that 3rd age Sauron lacks any feats at all for things that could hurt Dumbledore. I get that WoG is that he's all there - buuuuut... no feats at all of being all there. It may be that he didn't do anything because he was afraid. It may be that he didn't do anything because the Ring thus consumed him. But... both of those things are still the case here.

The fact that he controlled his servants and his armies doesn't speak to any personal power other than pre-existing authority, self-interest of the led, etc. The Nazgul are his bitches - they specifically gave themselves to him body and soul by using the rings. The Orks follow him because they fear him (and with the Nazgul projecting his will, that's a pretty good idea), because they want what he's promising them (domination over man and elf and dwarf), because they are things he made to follow him (thus, they don't really have total self-determination, plus their willpower and courage isn't exactly "top notch" absence numbers and fear of their leaders). The humans on his side follow him for money, because they are douchebags, and because they basically don't like the holier-than-thou attitudes of Gondor and Rohan.

OTOH, I agree that there probably isn't much that Dumbledore could do to Sauron.

The later two fights are things that Sauron should comfortably win, as I think he's (well) outside the demonstrated potency of Avada Kedavra, and the pesky "I don't really need a body here" thing means that transfiguration isn't likely to work. Meanwhile, he's definitely got the oomph to kill him some humans, and to do it quickly. I guess, if the Ring counts as common knowledge, Dumbledore could Accio it and then destroy it with Fyndfyre. He's never shown using it, but a chump like Goyle does, and it destroys a Horcrux. Horcrux durability is right up there with the Rings.

[Sharpandpointies]

Well-researched and interpreted.

The only thing is that 3rd age Sauron lacks any feats at all for things that could hurt Dumbledore. I get that WoG is that he's all there - buuuuut... no feats at all of being all there. It may be that he didn't do anything because he was afraid. It may be that he didn't do anything because the Ring thus consumed him. But... both of those things are still the case here.

My feeling on 'beings lacking feats who are nonetheless powerful' is that we should say things like 'Sauron lacks the feats at this time, so the fight is a bit of a non-starter as we don't have anything on him.' Alternately, we accept that there are certain assumptions that could be made and discuss things based on those assumptions. I've personally never liked the 'despite being an enormously powerful being, X has no feats, thus a human with a stick can beat them' sort of thing (not saying this is exactly what you're saying, but I've actually seen that put forward hereabouts on occasion).

Certainly Sauron was powerful enough to mind-control his army of non-humans (see below). Certainly he controlled Mt. Doom, causing it to erupt again. Gandalf and co. at the Council were fairly convinced he was over-cautious, and this is born up in his encounter with Aragorn through the palantiri.

The fact that he controlled his servants and his armies doesn't speak to any personal power other than pre-existing authority, self-interest of the led, etc.

Actually, it's a solid point in the story that the second Sauron is defeated and dispersed, his non-human armies basically go crazy. The text goes into great detail talking about how their 'guiding will has been removed' and 'like ants without a queen, they suddenly start running hither and yon.'

Not his human followers (the Black Númenoreans ARE douches, the rest have been conquered by Sauron for a looooong time), no, but the orcs and trolls? Yep. I can get you the quote on it if you want, it's in the first two pages of the chapter after the Ring takes the long plunge, describing how the battle at the gates of Mordor turns out.

But it is made 100% clear that Sauron is actually mentally controlling his army of orcs and trolls.

The later two fights are things that Sauron should comfortably win, as I think he's (well) outside the demonstrated potency of Avada Kedavra, and the pesky "I don't really need a body here" thing means that transfiguration isn't likely to work. Meanwhile, he's definitely got the oomph to kill him some humans, and to do it quickly. I guess, if the Ring counts as common knowledge, Dumbledore could Accio it and then destroy it with Fyndfyre. He's never shown using it, but a chump like Goyle does, and it destroys a Horcrux. Horcrux durability is right up there with the Rings.

The thing about the Ring is this: nothing in Middle earth can destroy it but the fires where it was created. It was created in Mt. Doom. That's why it can be destroyed there, not because 'it's lava'. Gandalf is pretty sure that dragon-fire, even from Ancalagon the Black, wouldn't destroy the One Ring. Saruman can't, Gandalf can't, Galadriel can't, going back in time and letting Ancalagon barf on it can't... It must be 'undone' where it was created.

The takeaway? Nobody is saying the Ring cannot be destroyed by anyone in fiction. That's a no-limits fallacy (and it's somewhat ridiculous to think that if one of the Valar showed up and wanted to break the Ring, they couldn't). However, one can be pretty safe in saying 'The One Ring cannot simply be destroyed by people weaker than Sauron', because the Ring is basically created through the power of Sauron. Lacking the forges where he created it, to which it is linked, someone would need to be strong enough to overpower Sauron himself to bust it.

[Sharpandpointies]

Regarding Sauron's power at the time of Lord of the Rings, we do have one measuring stick that might help.

One hundred years before Lord of the Rings, Gandalf wanders into Dol Guldur. He bumps into the Necromancer, close enough to determine that 'Hey, it's actually Sauron!'

He barely escapes with his life - there's no question of fighting.

The same Gandalf the Grey takes on a Balrog and basically fights it to a tie game.

Then Sauron has another hundred years to continue his process of regaining his power.

We also have Gandalf the White saying 'Yeah, Sauron, he's still more powerful than me.' At a time where Sauron does not have his Ring.

[Sharpandpointies]

Hilariously, if one searches for The One Ring, google asks 'Do you mean my precioussss?'

[Sharpandpointies]

This is literally the only thing I've seen of Letterkenny.



I have nothing else to contribute. Wayne is the gentleman asking about salt and pepper.

Just saw this - while I appreciate the contribution, I feel I'll skip on it due to the subject matter. ^_^

[big_adventure]

My feeling on 'beings lacking feats who are nonetheless powerful' is that we should say things like 'Sauron lacks the feats at this time, so the fight is a bit of a non-starter as we don't have anything on him.' Alternately, we accept that there are certain assumptions that could be made and discuss things based on those assumptions. I've personally never liked the 'despite being an enormously powerful being, X has no feats, thus a human with a stick can beat them' sort of thing (not saying this is exactly what you're saying, but I've actually seen that put forward hereabouts on occasion).

Certainly Sauron was powerful enough to mind-control his army of non-humans (see below). Certainly he controlled Mt. Doom, causing it to erupt again. Gandalf and co. at the Council were fairly convinced he was over-cautious, and this is born up in his encounter with Aragorn through the palantiri.

I agree with the first part there completely. Some beings just suck in Rumbles. If we introduce a character and say "this dude is all powerful" but all he does is create one flower on one panel and then is never heard from again, well, even Fern-Buster Strange ought to be able to deal with the guy. For me, Third Age Sauron is kind of in that window. He should be really powerful, but he really lacks super useful feats for Khazan combat. Would he kill a normal human? Sure, probably, simply by being a big strong dude who's really hard to kill. Someone who can teleport, fly, go invisible, make shields, dish out massive amounts of energy, transmogrify things in real time with a thought? Well, he's going to have a harder time. I don't at all doubt that his base form is "more powerful" than a human-based HP wizard, but he's got to catch that wizard. And that's going to be a bitch. OTOH, Dumbledore maybe / probably / kinda can't kill him either, soooooooo...

Actually, it's a solid point in the story that the second Sauron is defeated and dispersed, his non-human armies basically go crazy. The text goes into great detail talking about how their 'guiding will has been removed' and 'like ants without a queen, they suddenly start running hither and yon.'

Not his human followers (the Black Númenoreans ARE douches, the rest have been conquered by Sauron for a looooong time), no, but the orcs and trolls? Yep. I can get you the quote on it if you want, it's in the first two pages of the chapter after the Ring takes the long plunge, describing how the battle at the gates of Mordor turns out.

But it is made 100% clear that Sauron is actually mentally controlling his army of orcs and trolls.

I sort of touch on that in the statement above - he made them as servants, so them being bent to his will is part of their programming. He never mind controls anyone who would be useful to mind control, or anyone he doesn't have specific access to (either he created them, or he corrupted them over a long period of time with the rings in the case of the Nazgul).

The thing about the Ring is this: nothing in Middle earth can destroy it but the fires where it was created. It was created in Mt. Doom. That's why it can be destroyed there, not because 'it's lava'. Gandalf is pretty sure that dragon-fire, even from Ancalagon the Black, wouldn't destroy the One Ring. Saruman can't, Gandalf can't, Galadriel can't, going back in time and letting Ancalagon barf on it can't... It must be 'undone' where it was created.

The takeaway? Nobody is saying the Ring cannot be destroyed by anyone in fiction. That's a no-limits fallacy (and it's somewhat ridiculous to think that if one of the Valar showed up and wanted to break the Ring, they couldn't). However, one can be pretty safe in saying 'The One Ring cannot simply be destroyed by people weaker than Sauron', because the Ring is basically created through the power of Sauron. Lacking the forges where he created it, to which it is linked, someone would need to be strong enough to overpower Sauron himself to bust it.

Entirely fair... the substance I was talking about is specifically a thing in HP that destroys things MASSIVELY more powerful than the user of the spell. A ninth-rate (at best - the dude was literally depriving a village of it's idiot) student wizard cast the stuff and collateral damage annihilated a Horcrux.

Regarding Sauron's power at the time of Lord of the Rings, we do have one measuring stick that might help.

One hundred years before Lord of the Rings, Gandalf wanders into Dol Guldur. He bumps into the Necromancer, close enough to determine that 'Hey, it's actually Sauron!'

He barely escapes with his life - there's no question of fighting.

The same Gandalf the Grey takes on a Balrog and basically fights it to a tie game.

Then Sauron has another hundred years to continue his process of regaining his power.

We also have Gandalf the White saying 'Yeah, Sauron, he's still more powerful than me.' At a time where Sauron does not have his Ring.

For that one... OK - I always read that as "I figured out it was Sauron, I ran to not take the chance - because everyone else needs to know that he's still out here and IF he can beat me, everyone is even more screwed."

Hilariously, if one searches for The One Ring, google asks 'Do you mean my precioussss?'

I mean, of COURSE it does. Beautiful easter egg there.

I love this discussion, by the way.

[Sharpandpointies]

I agree with the first part there completely. Some beings just suck in Rumbles. If we introduce a character and say "this dude is all powerful" but all he does is create one flower on one panel and then is never heard from again, well, even Fern-Buster Strange ought to be able to deal with the guy. For me, Third Age Sauron is kind of in that window. He should be really powerful, but he really lacks super useful feats for Khazan combat. Would he kill a normal human? Sure, probably, simply by being a big strong dude who's really hard to kill. Someone who can teleport, fly, go invisible, make shields, dish out massive amounts of energy, transmogrify things in real time with a thought? Well, he's going to have a harder time. I don't at all doubt that his base form is "more powerful" than a human-based HP wizard, but he's got to catch that wizard. And that's going to be a bitch. OTOH, Dumbledore maybe / probably / kinda can't kill him either, soooooooo...

I get where you're coming from.

What I have is this: Sauron's powers aren't exactly going to change a lot. If his power level is decent, he'll have access to all of the powers he has displayed in the past (save stuff explicitly denied to him, like 'sexy bod').

He's more powerful than a Balrog, at the least (by a chunk).

That kind of gives him a fair bit to play with.

I sort of touch on that in the statement above - he made them as servants, so them being bent to his will is part of their programming. He never mind controls anyone who would be useful to mind control, or anyone he doesn't have specific access to (either he created them, or he corrupted them over a long period of time with the rings in the case of the Nazgul).

There are three points to make, here.

1. Tolkien later put in specific circuit breakers in the world itself to explain 'why, if Sauron can mind control his entire army and reach across a continent to mentally attack someone [Galadriel], can't he simply mind control people around him?' Those circuit breakers are basically Ilúvatar setting up a system so that people can't just do that (they have to put work into subjugating/subverting the person first). So, why did Tolkien do this? To explain away the PIS of Sauron not doing just that, potentially. Or maybe he had that idea all along.

2. PIS. We know the guy can reach out over a continent and psychically attack people. He has done so with Galadriel. He has even battled Gandalf the White psychically. And through the palantir, he effortlessly took control of Pippen (Hobbits - even Pippen - being noted as somewhat resistant to such things). He did the same with Saruman. He almost did as much to Denathor, only failing because Denathor had some actual 'right' to be a master of the palantiri, and only failed against Aragorn because Aragorn IS the lawful master of the palantiri. Etc.

3. The army, when he releases it, goes crazy. He is thus maintaining mental control over a hundred thousand beings who would otherwise go nutso without said mental control. This is an army that really, really doesn't like Sauron (the orcs are pretty hateful about their boss). Bred to be his servants or not, he's still controlling a hundred thousand beings with his mind.

So, we have a choice - we can downplay all of that and say 'Sauron never does it to people where it would make his life more simple', or we can take the feats at face value and say 'The writer didn't want that to happen because it would make things really different, ie PIS.'

I lean toward the latter, given Sauron's power level, his personal focus (domination and control), the Ring's purpose (enhancing domination and control), etc. It's consistent with his presentation.

Entirely fair... the substance I was talking about is specifically a thing in HP that destroys things MASSIVELY more powerful than the user of the spell. A ninth-rate (at best - the dude was literally depriving a village of it's idiot) student wizard cast the stuff and collateral damage annihilated a Horcrux.

That it's a very, very powerful spell (for the HP verse, that is) there is no question. I'll note, however, that Basilisk venom has also destroyed Horcruxes.

I would still, myself, ask if the spell has ever gone up against something of Sauron's power level.

For that one... OK - I always read that as "I figured out it was Sauron, I ran to not take the chance - because everyone else needs to know that he's still out here and IF he can beat me, everyone is even more screwed."

I'll need to find the exact quote, but what I recall is 'I barely escaped with my life.' There is thus some indication that it actually came to some kind of confrontation, enough that Gandalf figured 'I'm gonna die.'

I'm pretty cool with this meaning Sauron is a whole lot more than just the guy who rolled out of bed after making his new body. ^_^ And then has another hundred years on top of it - AFTER he feels confident enough to blow up Mt. Doom and announce "I'm BAAAACK!" to continue to regain his strength.

I love this discussion, by the way.

Good thread, thus far.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

I guess to simplify the Orc Mind Control you could simply say that while they were created to serve (they didn't have the specific breakers to make domination/subjugation a time consuming affair), Sauron still requires the mental oomph to 1) dominate that many minds at once 2) dominate that many minds across vast distances while also engaging in psychic combat with Galadriel, and Gandalf the White.

Dude is one hell of a telepath.

[Sharpandpointies]

I guess to simplify the Orc Mind Control you could simply say that while they were created to serve (they didn't have the specific breakers to make domination/subjugation a time consuming affair), Sauron still requires the mental oomph to 1) dominate that many minds at once 2) dominate that many minds across vast distances while also engaging in psychic combat with Galadriel, and Gandalf the White.

Dude is one hell of a telepath.

Sauron's psychic power is one of those things that's often underestimated because Tolkien doesn't write about it a lot. But as you say, dude has plenty of oomph when one starts looking from the right perspective.

[big_adventure]

I get where you're coming from.

What I have is this: Sauron's powers aren't exactly going to change a lot. If his power level is decent, he'll have access to all of the powers he has displayed in the past (save stuff explicitly denied to him, like 'sexy bod').

He's more powerful than a Balrog, at the least (by a chunk).

That kind of gives him a fair bit to play with.



There are three points to make, here.

1. Tolkien later put in specific circuit breakers in the world itself to explain 'why, if Sauron can mind control his entire army and reach across a continent to mentally attack someone [Galadriel], can't he simply mind control people around him?' Those circuit breakers are basically Ilúvatar setting up a system so that people can't just do that (they have to put work into subjugating/subverting the person first). So, why did Tolkien do this? To explain away the PIS of Sauron not doing just that, potentially. Or maybe he had that idea all along.

2. PIS. We know the guy can reach out over a continent and psychically attack people. He has done so with Galadriel. He has even battled Gandalf the White psychically. And through the palantir, he effortlessly took control of Pippen (Hobbits - even Pippen - being noted as somewhat resistant to such things). He did the same with Saruman. He almost did as much to Denathor, only failing because Denathor had some actual 'right' to be a master of the palantiri, and only failed against Aragorn because Aragorn IS the lawful master of the palantiri. Etc.

3. The army, when he releases it, goes crazy. He is thus maintaining mental control over a hundred thousand beings who would otherwise go nutso without said mental control. This is an army that really, really doesn't like Sauron (the orcs are pretty hateful about their boss). Bred to be his servants or not, he's still controlling a hundred thousand beings with his mind.

So, we have a choice - we can downplay all of that and say 'Sauron never does it to people where it would make his life more simple', or we can take the feats at face value and say 'The writer didn't want that to happen because it would make things really different, ie PIS.'

I lean toward the latter, given Sauron's power level, his personal focus (domination and control), the Ring's purpose (enhancing domination and control), etc. It's consistent with his presentation.



That it's a very, very powerful spell (for the HP verse, that is) there is no question. I'll note, however, that Basilisk venom has also destroyed Horcruxes.

I would still, myself, ask if the spell has ever gone up against something of Sauron's power level.



I'll need to find the exact quote, but what I recall is 'I barely escaped with my life.' There is thus some indication that it actually came to some kind of confrontation, enough that Gandalf figured 'I'm gonna die.'

I'm pretty cool with this meaning Sauron is a whole lot more than just the guy who rolled out of bed after making his new body. ^_^ And then has another hundred years on top of it - AFTER he feels confident enough to blow up Mt. Doom and announce "I'm BAAAACK!" to continue to regain his strength.



Good thread, thus far.

All great points. I'm not sure I'm "happy" about giving Sauron full-ish power in the Third Age, but your Tolkien Fu is strong.

In any case, I already agreed that Sauron, barring something I can't really imagine based on feats, wins this going away. It's just the how. Even if he couldn't hurt Dumbledore in the first fight, well, Dumbledore will eventually die and Sauron won't. In the next two, it's easy breezey.