Which villain(s) could headline an event?

[Kaitou D. Kid]

You can argue that classical Green Goblin is better or that you like it more, but I find it disingenuous to argue that Bendis' reinvention of Norman for Dark Reign "didn't stuck" it ran its course and was successful at the time. Many people remember it fondly and for a good deal of the fanbase that isn't too deep into Spider-Man, that version was one of the peaks of the character. Never again had Norman Osborn been such a massive threat.

What I mean is that neither Demon Goblin nor Iron Patriot stuck around in comics or in other mediums (Don Cheadle's version notwithstanding) while the classical take on the Green Goblin has continued to appear and, more importantly, to be marketable (Demon Goblin's return in Saladin Ahmed's run, for example, was significantly more forgettable and less marketable than the hype that Gobby's return got in Spencer's run).

[JTHM]

What I mean is that neither Demon Goblin nor Iron Patriot stuck around in comics or in other mediums (Don Cheadle's version notwithstanding) while the classical take on the Green Goblin has continued to appear and, more importantly, to be marketable (Demon Goblin's return in Saladin Ahmed's run, for example, was significantly more forgettable and less marketable than the hype that Gobby's return got in Spencer's run).

Several points:

1.- I don't believe Iron Patriot, an Iron Man derivative title that had a clear in-universe reason to exist as part of the arc that Norman was going through at the time, was ever meant to stick long term. Like I said, it was part of the storyline and then it ended. But it is quite clear that there was never a real intention for Iron Patriot to replace the Green Goblin as Norman's alter-ego. So judging whether that tenure was influential or well-liked by that seems a bit silly.

2.- Demon Goblin was, ultimately, an alternate universe version. It is a total no-brainer that the actual Green Goblin's return would eclipse the return of an alternate universe version. But going by your own logic, Demon Goblin did stuck around in other mediums. He was the version of the Green Goblin used in Ultimate Spider-Man. He was also used in Into the Spider-Verse. So there are elements of his (most notably his design) that people do seem to want to incorporate one way or the other.

[green_garnish]

Since he was forced into the position of being a Spiderman villain, however uncomfortably, I'm going to include Mephisto. A series undoing what he did and seeing the story put back to rationality could be very involved and include almost all heroes, as well as all the Cosmic forces.

[PCN24454]

Since he was forced into the position of being a Spiderman villain, however uncomfortably, I'm going to include Mephisto. A series undoing what he did and seeing the story put back to rationality could be very involved and include almost all heroes, as well as all the Cosmic forces.

So long as it's not about OMD, it should be interesting.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Several points:

1.- I don't believe Iron Patriot, an Iron Man derivative title that had a clear in-universe reason to exist as part of the arc that Norman was going through at the time, was ever meant to stick long term. Like I said, it was part of the storyline and then it ended. But it is quite clear that there was never a real intention for Iron Patriot to replace the Green Goblin as Norman's alter-ego. So judging whether that tenure was influential or well-liked by that seems a bit silly.

2.- Demon Goblin was, ultimately, an alternate universe version. It is a total no-brainer that the actual Green Goblin's return would eclipse the return of an alternate universe version. But going by your own logic, Demon Goblin did stuck around in other mediums. He was the version of the Green Goblin used in Ultimate Spider-Man. He was also used in Into the Spider-Verse. So there are elements of his (most notably his design) that people do seem to want to incorporate one way or the other.

I guess I'm primarily addressing what I wrote to Bendis then (not that I expect him to be on CBR). I was never able to find any interviews he gave on Classic Green Goblin, but my general impression from his work is that Bendis isn't too fond of him and might even view that take on the character as "lesser" to Iron Patriot and Demon Goblin. In the case of Ultimate Spider-Man, it was supposed to be a more modern & realistic retelling of the Stan Lee era and not just another Elseworlds tale. That means a lot of the villain revamps we saw in Ultimate weren't simply Bendis putting his own spin on these villains, but him doing what he saw as "upgrades" to them. In fact, we know he at least saw Demon Goblin as an upgrade since apparently him and Quesada didn't think 616 Green Goblin could be scary anymore prior to the release of Ultimate Spider-Man (arguably now a dated view ever since Dafoe, The Spectacular Spider-Man, and some comics that have come out since Norman's Resurrection). In the case of Dark Reign, Bendis tended to play Norman up as having 'transcended' the Green Goblin and Spider-Man's mythos. Later he even made the Green Goblin be the reason for Norman's demise.

Whether or not there was any intent of those versions replacing the Green Goblin, I don't know and frankly doubt it. My point was more that if they were truly the upgrades to Norman that Bendis seems to view them as, we would have expected them to catch on more, especially in adaptations right? Demon Goblin has had more success than Iron Patriot if we're talking adaptations, but even then, it's mostly been just cameos (ITSV) or a fusion with the 616 Goblin (USM cartoon), or stuff where it just made sense (the USM video game sequel to the comic).

I think that everything that worked in Dark Reign can be recaptured in another MU event with the Green Goblin. Heck, if anything, it can be done even better. I would argue the best use of Norman as an MU-wide threat so far has been in Marvel Knights: Spider-Man, where he was the Green Goblin. I mean, doesn't he put together a team of Spider-Man villains that go toe-to-toe with the Avengers and have connections to other powerful MU people in that? More of that please.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

More Green Goblin events please, and by that I mean 'Green Goblin' and not Norman Osborn. The Norman from Dark Reign was practically a different character from the one in Spider-Man comics. Bendis has tried to reinvent Norman Osborn on two occasions now (Ultimate and Dark Reign), and it's very telling that neither of those stuck while Ditko's take on the Green Goblin continues to live on.

Agreed. Co-signed.

I found Bendis' Osborn to be far more boring and predictable than the Norman we saw in works like Marvel Knights: Spider-Man. The Norman from that book would have been significantly more threatening than Bendis' had he gained the same privileges and legal power.

It's weird to concede that Mark Millar (of all people) did something better than Bendis but hey, there you have it.

I actually think Kelly Sue DeConnick in her OSBORN series did a better take on that version of Norman Osborn.

Green Goblin is actually Marvel's third biggest villain in terms of appearances (after Doctor Doom and Magneto), so he has seniority and rank over the likes of Loki, Ultron, and others.

[Huntsman Spider]

I guess I'm primarily addressing what I wrote to Bendis then (not that I expect him to be on CBR). I was never able to find any interviews he gave on Classic Green Goblin, but my general impression from his work is that Bendis isn't too fond of him and might even view that take on the character as "lesser" to Iron Patriot and Demon Goblin. In the case of Ultimate Spider-Man, it was supposed to be a more modern & realistic retelling of the Stan Lee era and not just another Elseworlds tale. That means a lot of the villain revamps we saw in Ultimate weren't simply Bendis putting his own spin on these villains, but him doing what he saw as "upgrades" to them. In fact, we know he at least saw Demon Goblin as an upgrade since apparently him and Quesada didn't think 616 Green Goblin could be scary anymore prior to the release of Ultimate Spider-Man (arguably now a dated view ever since Dafoe, The Spectacular Spider-Man, and some comics that have come out since Norman's Resurrection). In the case of Dark Reign, Bendis tended to play Norman up as having 'transcended' the Green Goblin and Spider-Man's mythos. Later he even made the Green Goblin be the reason for Norman's demise.

Whether or not there was any intent of those versions replacing the Green Goblin, I don't know and frankly doubt it. My point was more that if they were truly the upgrades to Norman that Bendis seems to view them as, we would have expected them to catch on more, especially in adaptations right? Demon Goblin has had more success than Iron Patriot if we're talking adaptations, but even then, it's mostly been just cameos (ITSV) or a fusion with the 616 Goblin (USM cartoon), or stuff where it just made sense (the USM video game sequel to the comic).

I think that everything that worked in Dark Reign can be recaptured in another MU event with the Green Goblin. Heck, if anything, it can be done even better. I would argue the best use of Norman as an MU-wide threat so far has been in Marvel Knights: Spider-Man, where he was the Green Goblin. I mean, doesn't he put together a team of Spider-Man villains that go toe-to-toe with the Avengers and have connections to other powerful MU people in that? More of that please.

Considering that Marvel Knights: Spider-Man by Mark Millar revealed that Osborn was part of a conspiracy enacted and perpetuated by corrupt industrialists and politicians to distract the then-nascent superhero community with "supervillains," technically criminals and mercenaries enhanced and/or equipped to pose a direct physical threat to superheroes, so they wouldn't have the wherewithal to (potentially) change society for the better by taking on the real evils of that society, it's a wonder Marvel hasn't done more with that. He should know where a lot of bodies are buried, literally and metaphorically speaking, and maybe that's why he keeps getting back into positions of trust and authority despite his known penchant for mass murder and mayhem.

[Mister Mets]

I guess I'm primarily addressing what I wrote to Bendis then (not that I expect him to be on CBR). I was never able to find any interviews he gave on Classic Green Goblin, but my general impression from his work is that Bendis isn't too fond of him and might even view that take on the character as "lesser" to Iron Patriot and Demon Goblin. In the case of Ultimate Spider-Man, it was supposed to be a more modern & realistic retelling of the Stan Lee era and not just another Elseworlds tale. That means a lot of the villain revamps we saw in Ultimate weren't simply Bendis putting his own spin on these villains, but him doing what he saw as "upgrades" to them. In fact, we know he at least saw Demon Goblin as an upgrade since apparently him and Quesada didn't think 616 Green Goblin could be scary anymore prior to the release of Ultimate Spider-Man (arguably now a dated view ever since Dafoe, The Spectacular Spider-Man, and some comics that have come out since Norman's Resurrection). In the case of Dark Reign, Bendis tended to play Norman up as having 'transcended' the Green Goblin and Spider-Man's mythos. Later he even made the Green Goblin be the reason for Norman's demise.

Whether or not there was any intent of those versions replacing the Green Goblin, I don't know and frankly doubt it. My point was more that if they were truly the upgrades to Norman that Bendis seems to view them as, we would have expected them to catch on more, especially in adaptations right? Demon Goblin has had more success than Iron Patriot if we're talking adaptations, but even then, it's mostly been just cameos (ITSV) or a fusion with the 616 Goblin (USM cartoon), or stuff where it just made sense (the USM video game sequel to the comic).

I think that everything that worked in Dark Reign can be recaptured in another MU event with the Green Goblin. Heck, if anything, it can be done even better. I would argue the best use of Norman as an MU-wide threat so far has been in Marvel Knights: Spider-Man, where he was the Green Goblin. I mean, doesn't he put together a team of Spider-Man villains that go toe-to-toe with the Avengers and have connections to other powerful MU people in that? More of that please.

Bendis wrote the introduction to a reprint of Amazing Spider-Man #14, where he said "This is the shadow every single comic book creator has been chasing for forty years, the long twisted shadow of the greatest comic book villain ever created, (no, not Rob Liefeld) Norman Osborn!"

He wrote "The character quickly evolves himself into the most dramatic conflict in comic book history. This is the villain that will unmask Peter Parker, torture him and then hurt him-really hurt him. He kills Gwen Stacy. No takebacks. No tricks. Wow! And she stayed dead! And all the while we sympathize with Norman because he does not know what he does. He is trapped by demons he doesn't even know exist. Plus, he is the father of Peter's best and maybe only friend. Wow! This is a great villain!!"

So he really liked Osborn as a villain.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Bendis wrote the introduction to a reprint of Amazing Spider-Man #14, where he said "This is the shadow every single comic book creator has been chasing for forty years, the long twisted shadow of the greatest comic book villain ever created, (no, not Rob Liefeld) Norman Osborn!"

Hmm...ASM#14 features the aspect of Green Goblin, not Norman lol!!!

He wrote "The character quickly evolves himself into the most dramatic conflict in comic book history. This is the villain that will unmask Peter Parker, torture him and then hurt him-really hurt him. He kills Gwen Stacy. No takebacks. No tricks. Wow! And she stayed dead! And all the while we sympathize with Norman because he does not know what he does. He is trapped by demons he doesn't even know exist. Plus, he is the father of Peter's best and maybe only friend. Wow! This is a great villain!!"

I don't know when Bendis read The Night Gwen Stacy Died but it's quite clear that Norman isn't sympathetic at all. Conway wrote Norman as completely beyond redemption in that story, I mean what with the kidnapping of someone specifically to hurt Peter, murdering her and then making crude demeaning jokes about her and going full misogynist when he calls her a "paltry useless female who never did anything more than occupy space".

Green Goblin was never intended to be really sympathetic, certainly not by Ditko.

And if anything Bendis' Osborn is extremely unsympathetic as well. So it's a case of someone not knowing or understanding a) original material, b) his own work.

So he really liked Osborn as a villain.

Kaitou's point is that Bendis preferred Osborn over the Green Goblin aspect. That isn't contradicted by your claim, to be honest your claim reinforces the original point.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Agreed. Co-signed.



It's weird to concede that Mark Millar (of all people) did something better than Bendis but hey, there you have it.

I actually think Kelly Sue DeConnick in her OSBORN series did a better take on that version of Norman Osborn.

Green Goblin is actually Marvel's third biggest villain in terms of appearances (after Doctor Doom and Magneto), so he has seniority and rank over the likes of Loki, Ultron, and others.

I read DeConnick's Osborn series earlier this week and loved it. It was one of those books I couldn't put down. I love Norman's humor in it and how he played everyone. Definitely one of the top stories with the characters and I think my favorite non-Spidey appearance from Norman so far.

Considering that Marvel Knights: Spider-Man by Mark Millar revealed that Osborn was part of a conspiracy enacted and perpetuated by corrupt industrialists and politicians to distract the then-nascent superhero community with "supervillains," technically criminals and mercenaries enhanced and/or equipped to pose a direct physical threat to superheroes, so they wouldn't have the wherewithal to (potentially) change society for the better by taking on the real evils of that society, it's a wonder Marvel hasn't done more with that. He should know where a lot of bodies are buried, literally and metaphorically speaking, and maybe that's why he keeps getting back into positions of trust and authority despite his known penchant for mass murder and mayhem.

This too. It seems like a natural way to do more MU events with a Spider-Man character.

[Speed Force League Unlimited]

Sandman

Chameleon

Hypno Hustler

[Huntsman Spider]

Sandman

Chameleon

Hypno Hustler

If it helps, Chameleon has Chameleon Conspiracy that started and runs through this month.

I'd throw in Tinkerer, just due to how many villains and criminals and others on the wrong side of the law he's equipped or upgraded.

[Speed Force League Unlimited]

If it helps, Chameleon has Chameleon Conspiracy that started and runs through this month.

I'd throw in Tinkerer, just due to how many villains and criminals and others on the wrong side of the law he's equipped or upgraded.

Works for him. When he kidnapped Jameson and took his place that was suitable to be considered an event centered around him too.

Tinkerer did have that story in Spectacular that works for an event, so he's a suitable choice for a villain.

[Huntsman Spider]

Works for him. When he kidnapped Jameson and took his place that was suitable to be considered an event centered around him too.

Tinkerer did have that story in Spectacular that works for an event, so he's a suitable choice for a villain.

Yeah, when he basically brought a malevolent alien machine intelligence to Earth with the intent of letting said alien machine intelligence wipe out humanity in a fit of existential despair and misanthropic spite.

[PCN24454]

Yeah, when he basically brought a malevolent alien machine intelligence to Earth with the intent of letting said alien machine intelligence wipe out humanity in a fit of existential despair and misanthropic spite.

It's funny how he was originally intended to be an alien in disguise.