Realism and Flaws

[Dralokonda]

Ever notice how some of the biggest complaints people like to make for why superman is not interesting is the claims that he is either overpowered to the point he rarely ever struggles against opponents or lacks character flaws that make him more realistic and relatable since people prefer characters to have alot more grey areas in personality.

People claim that it is too cheap to pit him against characters of equal levels of power to himself as they find it unrealistic and that he should be nerfed to the point he is more capable of being harmed by more down to earth elements such as electricity so he can struggle more since it works better for other characters.

For example, some fans claim captain america has officially replaced superman as an inspirational hero because despite the fact that he has a degree of superhuman capability, he still struggles, but successfully manages to overcome his challenges which makes him both inspirational and relatable due to his abilities being more down to earth. Or how spiderman is more interesting due his flaws and constant sacrifices that make him more heroic compared to supes.

Are their any stories that prove otherwise in supermans favor that showcase how a powerhouse character like him can still be inspirational and interesting. Not to mention how people are using the excuses of realism against supes abilities are incorrect and how does indeed have a great level of relatability.

I'd like to hear your thoughts and opinions.

[Alpha]

Read "Superman: Secret Identity". It's not actually Superman, but it gives you a deep view into what it must be like to experience life through his eyes. It's fascinating and quite touching.

[Quinlan58]

I think the inspirational factor of Superman is extremely overstated. I personally don't read his stories to be "inspired", I just want a cool and interesting story of a profoundly alienated man trying to do good. I also think the argument that being too powerful limits his appeal is completely absurd when you consider the popularity of franchises like Dragon Ball or One Punch Man.

As for go-to recommendations... Man and Superman, Secret Identity, Smashes The Klan, Moore's stories and Up, Up and Away.

[Dralokonda]

Read it, thought it was pretty good story, despite the lack of conflict.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Ever notice how some of the biggest complaints people like to make for why superman is not interesting is the claims that he is either overpowered to the point he rarely ever struggles against opponents or lacks character flaws that make him more realistic and relatable since people prefer characters to have alot more grey areas in personality. People claim that it is too cheap to pit him against characters of equal levels of power to himself as they find it unrealistic and that he should be nerfed to the point he is more capable of being harmed by more down to earth elements such as electricity so he can struggle more since it works better for other characters. For example, some fans claim captain america has officially replaced superman as an inspirational hero because despite the fact that he has a degree of superhuman capability, he still struggles, but successfully manages to overcome his challenges which makes him both inspirational and relatable due to his abilities being more down to earth. Or how spiderman is more interesting due his flaws and constant sacrifices that make him more heroic compared to supes. Are their any stories that prove otherwise in supermans favor that showcase how a powerhouse character like him can still be inspirational and interesting. Not to mention how people are using the excuses of realism against supes abilities are incorrect and how does indeed have a great level of relatability. I'd like to hear your thoughts and opinions.

This is hard to read. You should try separating your thoughts into smaller sentences or paragraphs.

Superman tends to get pigeonholed as the "all-powerful all-good guy". Which can be off-putting to an older more cynical audience. As a teenager Superman nor Captain America didn't interest me that much. Or atleast when they were Clark and Steve.

Conner and Bucky were my guys.

As an older fan I have a greater appreciation of him. But I just dabble rather than commit longterm.

[Ascended]

I find complaints like this to be absurd and not based on anything factual.

It's true that Superman's legend has grown to a point where it threatens to choke the character; people have come to look at Superman as some kind of space jesus, and if he doesn't make them feel like they saw the face of god, the story is a failure.

But that's something the character has never tried to be. Clark has never set himself up As some kind of messiah, that's role forced upon him by us, Clark has only ever tried to do what he can to help. His wanting to be a example to others is no different than one of us being kind to our neighbors for the same reason; be the change you wanna see in the world and all that. Clark is just capable of working on a bigger scale than us.

These complaints mostly seem to come from a place of ignorance, and it's not all that hard to find some very deep, very compelling flaws and quirks in Clark's personality. Likewise, he struggles in basically every conflict he's in, just like every other hero. His threats are just as dangerous to him as Daredevil's are to Matt Murdock; it's not like Clark is only fighting purse snatchers here.

[Prime]

I find complaints like this to be absurd and not based on anything factual.

It's true that Superman's legend has grown to a point where it threatens to choke the character; people have come to look at Superman as some kind of space jesus, and if he doesn't make them feel like they saw the face of god, the story is a failure.

But that's something the character has never tried to be. Clark has never set himself up As some kind of messiah, that's role forced upon him by us, Clark has only ever tried to do what he can to help. His wanting to be a example to others is no different than one of us being kind to our neighbors for the same reason; be the change you wanna see in the world and all that. Clark is just capable of working on a bigger scale than us.

These complaints mostly seem to come from a place of ignorance, and it's not all that hard to find some very deep, very compelling flaws and quirks in Clark's personality. Likewise, he struggles in basically every conflict he's in, just like every other hero. His threats are just as dangerous to him as Daredevil's are to Matt Murdock; it's not like Clark is only fighting purse snatchers here.

As always i agree

[manwhohaseverything]

I find complaints like this to be absurd and not based on anything factual.

It's true that Superman's legend has grown to a point where it threatens to choke the character; people have come to look at Superman as some kind of space jesus, and if he doesn't make them feel like they saw the face of god, the story is a failure.

But that's something the character has never tried to be. Clark has never set himself up As some kind of messiah, that's role forced upon him by us, Clark has only ever tried to do what he can to help. His wanting to be a example to others is no different than one of us being kind to our neighbors for the same reason; be the change you wanna see in the world and all that. Clark is just capable of working on a bigger scale than us.

These complaints mostly seem to come from a place of ignorance, and it's not all that hard to find some very deep, very compelling flaws and quirks in Clark's personality. Likewise, he struggles in basically every conflict he's in, just like every other hero. His threats are just as dangerous to him as Daredevil's are to Matt Murdock; it's not like Clark is only fighting purse snatchers here.

I disagree.from my readings Clark's entire motive revolves around that.It's a hard pass for me.His parents want him to be that as well.He's the most obiedent son...Even morrison embraced that.This is cemented as superman.It started in the 70s and 80s with donner movies.Now there are modern versions that don't have that in the slightest bit.There are versions of superman that doesn't bring on that perspective..Landis's american which is anti-all star superman..

Heck!the white knight savior was struck down by lightning again and again by frank miller.Even the original superman hugo danner never lost his diginty like.He died though by lightning but with diginity and humility as a man.People see superman as two face to batman.That's why the constant turn to evil..Superman also has not produced any story of worth with his philosophical paintings and leanings.That's why people don't find superman compelling.He doesn't put forward good arguments from where he stands from.People can't even agree to disagree.. Because of the lack of essence..

[Dralokonda]

Very good, however, i'd like to hear your opinion or rebuttal to the statment from manwhohaseverything in regards to how superman is typically treated as batman's two face which is why he constantly turns evil.

[Dralokonda]

So i have been just made aware by a marvel fanboy that apparantly due to the mcu's financial success and popularity its apparantly proof for why not only superman but most of the dc franchises characters are no longer relevant because their films are not as successful as marvels and fans are apparantly not interested in dc's characters, superman especially. I tried to use the poll from disney's avengers campus last year as proof but the guy debunked it by pointing out only 2000 people in california entered which is a small amount and therefore not valid. Add on to how apparantly unpopular and unrelevant cws superman and lois is, its further proof of superman no longer being relevant. He even stated after dawn of justice he is sick of superman and fans he knows fell the same aswell, commentary?

[Vordan]

So i have been just made aware by a marvel fanboy that apparantly due to the mcu's financial success and popularity its apparantly proof for why not only superman but most of the dc franchises characters are no longer relevant because their films are not as successful as marvels and fans are apparantly not interested in dc's characters, superman especially. I tried to use the poll from disney's avengers campus last year as proof but the guy debunked it by pointing out only 2000 people in california entered which is a small amount and therefore not valid. Add on to how apparantly unpopular and unrelevant cws superman and lois is, its further proof of superman no longer being relevant. He even stated after dawn of justice he is sick of superman and fans he knows fell the same aswell, commentary?

Why would any of us care about your literal who friend saying Superman sucks and is irrelevant? Sorry to be blunt but if you’re going to bump your thread every time you meet someone who thinks Superman sucks, you’ll be here forever. Your friend says that survey doesn’t count but then says Superman isn’t relevant and S&L sucks because he and everyone he knows feels that way? Does he know more than 2000 people because otherwise you can just as easily dismiss him as an irrelevant sample size the same way he did.

Lots of people hate Superman and I don’t care. You’re never going to win them over and that’s ok, Superman is doing great right now, so just laugh at your friend and move on.

[Robanker]

I find complaints like this to be absurd and not based on anything factual.

It's true that Superman's legend has grown to a point where it threatens to choke the character; people have come to look at Superman as some kind of space jesus, and if he doesn't make them feel like they saw the face of god, the story is a failure.

But that's something the character has never tried to be. Clark has never set himself up As some kind of messiah, that's role forced upon him by us, Clark has only ever tried to do what he can to help. His wanting to be a example to others is no different than one of us being kind to our neighbors for the same reason; be the change you wanna see in the world and all that. Clark is just capable of working on a bigger scale than us.

These complaints mostly seem to come from a place of ignorance, and it's not all that hard to find some very deep, very compelling flaws and quirks in Clark's personality. Likewise, he struggles in basically every conflict he's in, just like every other hero. His threats are just as dangerous to him as Daredevil's are to Matt Murdock; it's not like Clark is only fighting purse snatchers here.

This. Most the people who try to tear Clark down in the fashion posted by the OP are generally looking to shit on him the same way "Batman is a rich white dude who punches the poor and mentally ill for being poor and mentally ill" is used to cudgel Bruce despite his published work generally trending to the contrary.

Clark fights intergalactic conquerers who can savagely beat him. He fights threats that are up to his level. Yes, he fights people beneath him, but do we really think muggers are up to Bruce's level when he takes on Mr. Freeze?

But they still get lucky and hurt Bruce now and then because that's the story. We challenge our heroes in smaller stakes to reign them back in. It's part of the curating a long IP where the hero must always trend toward victory and yet never actually win.


As for the Captain America thing, that's just because Cap was in successful movies that aren't ashamed of him. The general audience bases their takes on these characters primarily on the strength of their feature films and most the people who have helmed Superman films tend to look at him with a very cynical eye, so of course he's not going to come across inspirational unless you're that one guy who credited Snyder's Supes as uplifting him all of Snyder's fans repost to prove that Snyder's Superman was totally an inspiration. When we get a Superman movie where he's allowed to just be himself and not viewed through the lens as "Lois's ex who returns to break up her family while she tries to move on" or a guy who can't stop waffling on "should I even bother doing the right thing" and starts being the man who loves his adopted planet and wants to use his absolute power to help absolutely, then you'll see people start to believe in him again.

[marhawkman]

This is hard to read. You should try separating your thoughts into smaller sentences or paragraphs.

Superman tends to get pigeonholed as the "all-powerful all-good guy". Which can be off-putting to an older more cynical audience. As a teenager Superman nor Captain America didn't interest me that much. Or atleast when they were Clark and Steve.

Conner and Bucky were my guys.

As an older fan I have a greater appreciation of him. But I just dabble rather than commit longterm.

I'm a very cynical person, but that goes both ways. I know that the world doesn't work if EVERYONE is evil.

To paraphrase something Scorch said: Superman is good natured, but has goals of his own, he's not going to just tell you everything, either. But.... He won't directly lie to you.

This was chosen because Scorch, despite being a former supervillain, twice risked her life to help Superman.... and she nearly died the FIRST time! Yeah, Scorch was willing to help Superman even though the first time left her comatose for months. Why? Because she knew Superman wasn't the reason she got put into a coma. Fernus did that. And that's who Superman was trying to stop at the time. (this was one of the most spectacular things to happen in a JLA book too)

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

The power levels aren't that big a deal. You just switch from a DBZ mindset to a JoJo's bizarre adventure mindset. Making it more about strategy than just brute force.

Besides Superman's powers are easier to grasp than Captain Atom's or Martian Manhunter 's.

I'm a very cynical person, but that goes both ways. I know that the world doesn't work if EVERYONE is evil.

To paraphrase something Scorch said: Superman is good natured, but has goals of his own, he's not going to just tell you everything, either. But.... He won't directly lie to you.

This was chosen because Scorch, despite being a former supervillain, twice risked her life to help Superman.... and she nearly died the FIRST time! Yeah, Scorch was willing to help Superman even though the first time left her comatose for months. Why? Because she knew Superman wasn't the reason she got put into a coma. Fernus did that. And that's who Superman was trying to stop at the time. (this was one of the most spectacular things to happen in a JLA book too)

I don't know the reference but ok. Pure good or evil characters can work there just harder to pull off.

Ironically Aaron Sorkin is someone I wanna see write Superman. Not because of the dialog but he's good at writing those kind of characters.

[marhawkman]

The power levels aren't that big a deal. You just switch from a DBZ mindset to a JoJo's bizarre adventure mindset. Making it more about strategy than just brute force.

Besides Superman's powers are easier to grasp than Captain Atom's or Martian Manhunter 's.



I don't know the reference but ok. Pure good or evil characters can work there just harder to pull off.

Ironically Aaron Sorkin is someone I wanna see write Superman. Not because of the dialog but he's good at writing those kind of characters.

Hmm here's a quick recap: in the Burning Martian story(JLA 84-89, written by Joe Kelly) Scorch tries to help the Martian Manhunter overcome his psychological weakness to fire. It eventually works. Thing is... it awakens his evil side(Fernus, the Burning Martian), and eventually the JLA has to fight Fernus. Fernus uses a nuke to blow up a Korean city, then Plasticman(yes really) and Fernus have a fist fight in the burning wreckage of the city. Scorch... didn't want any of this to happen and decides that the best thing to do is to help Superman and the JLA fight Fernus. So she uses her powers to suck all of the fire out of the entire city(since Fernus is empowered by it). The idea is to weaken Fernus enough to give the JLA an opening. Well... they try, but it doesn't work. Fernus is enraged at Scorch and blasts her. She gets knocked out and has a massive crack on her face.

She stays unconscious until(Superman Vol 2 225, written by Mark Verheiden) Despero is going around looking for people to help him cause trouble. Despero apparently uses his powers to heal her injuries, then puts her on a team with Plasmus, Heatwave, and Effigy. They lure Superman to a rural area so they can try to take him 4-on-1... then Scorch listens to what Superman says and realizes that they'd been setup. So she changes sides to help Superman.

Anyways, point is: she didn't think Superman was perfect or flawless. If she did she'd have never helped fight him that time. But she trusted Superman more than she trusted Despero, Effigy or Plasmus. It's not that he's "pure good" just that he's reliable.