Is The Solution To The Male Gaze To Sexualize Male Characters Too?

[Timothy Hunter]

I think the solution is to offer different work for different audiences. Some people are going to like cheesecake art, and some will be embarrassed by it (and others will like it in some contexts but not others.) If there's a marker for sexualized male characters, those comics can be made too.

This is my position. I'm definitely not saying 'sexy' comic art should be the norm.

[armlessphelan]

The interesting thing about cheesecake art is that A LOT of the audience for it is women. Zenescope and Aspen (and once upon a time Top Cow) all make sexy art and a not-insignificant percentage of the audience is women. When she took over Red Sonja, Gail Simone specified that she wanted the metal bikini. There's absolutely nothing wrong with cheesecake, just as there's nothing wrong with moving away from it.

As for beefcake art, I'm all for it. In manga, which has a VERY healthy female market, male characters are often designed to appeal to female readers. But what Japanese women find attractive is very different from what American find attractive, so to Western markets the characters don't appear to be sexualized when they actually are. Not to forget all the doujinshi of gay men doing lewd things to each other that is often bought and enjoyed by straight Japanese women.

[Powerboy]

Harlequin Romance novels and other salacious literature seems to me like the female equivalent of a Playboy or a Penthouse.

Exactly. The equivalent of objectifying women through cheesecake art (which most real women cannot compete with physically) is turning male characters into Romance novel fantasies that most real men cannot compete with.

Look at the success of a show like "Smallville". Ten seasons, the longest running Superman television show ever. Some people whine about it because, oh the horror, one version of Superman was actually made for women, not men. Well, you could say "Lois and Clark" was too.

But if the goal is to draw more of a female audience, that's how you do it, by appealing to the female equivalent of what draws men.

Edit: I also think we see male cheesecake all the time but we don't think of it that way. Most men think in terms of intentionally sensual and provocative poses as cheesecake and that works for men and for the women in the poses. But men being drawn as muscular, even when the guy is a scientist who spends most of his time in the lab like Reed Richards, probably works for a lot of women. I think a lot of women would be turned off by a guy intentionally trying to be sensual in obvious poses. A male superhero doing the classic hands on hips was not meant to be sensual and would probably be disliked by women if that was the intention.

[mathew101281]

I think the solution is to offer different work for different audiences. Some people are going to like cheesecake art, and some will be embarrassed by it (and others will like it in some contexts but not others.) If there's a marker for sexualized male characters, those comics can be made too.

That seems to be a problem with American media in general. It tries to be all things to all people(thus getting the widest possible audience). But sometimes that way of thinking winds up with a product that no one is happy with. I feel manga is better in this regard because it isn't trying to retroactively turn a product/genre that was primarily aimed at teenage boys into general audience or female-targeted fair. You have girls manga and boys manga, if a girl likes a boy manga or vice-versa that's fine, but they aren't changing the story drastically to attract the opposite demographic.

[Agent Z]

The interesting thing about cheesecake art is that A LOT of the audience for it is women. Zenescope and Aspen (and once upon a time Top Cow) all make sexy art and a not-insignificant percentage of the audience is women.

You wouldn't happen to have a link to this info, would you?

[Agent Z]

That seems to be a problem with American media in general. It tries to be all things to all people(thus getting the widest possible audience). But sometimes that way of thinking winds up with a product that no one is happy with. I feel manga is better in this regard because it isn't trying to retroactively turn a product/genre that was primarily aimed at teenage boys into general audience or female-targeted fair. You have girls manga and boys manga, if a girl likes a boy manga or vice-versa that's fine, but they aren't changing the story drastically to attract the opposite demographic.

That method comes with its own problems. A lot of boys manga to this day has sexist handling of female characters, far more so than western comics (which is saying a lot).

[MyriVerse]

Problem is sexualized males is empowering (and we've already had it for centuries). It's just not the same for women, and I'm not sure it could ever be.

[Zelena]

Problem is sexualized males is empowering (and we've already had it for centuries). It's just not the same for women, and I'm not sure it could ever be.

I agree, it’s true but from time to time, there are exceptions…




And it goes on…

[shooshoomanjoe]

Ma favourite solution is to show very different kinds of women… The woman is not “a thing”, but “a being”.

The '90s had a lot of male characters that looked like they were on steroids, growth hormones and slin, so it's been done. IIRC, Alan Davis would even draw a crotch bulge on Captain Britain.

[armlessphelan]

You wouldn't happen to have a link to this info, would you?

https://comic-watch.com/news/badass-...-ralph-tedesco

This an interview with Ralph Tedesco from Zenescope and he touches on the discourse.

[mathew101281]

That method comes with its own problems. A lot of boys manga to this day has sexist handling of female characters, far more so than western comics (which is saying a lot).

I don’t think they are anymore sexist then American comics, they’re just not as interested in appealing to everyone. That’s the benefit of working in an actually functioning industry. American comics have to appeal to a wide general audience, because sales are so low. But manga sells so much that they have to diversify. Their is manga for pretty much every conceivable niche out there.

[Agent Z]

I don’t think they are anymore sexist then American comics, they’re just not as interested in appealing to everyone. That’s the benefit of working in an actually functioning industry. American comics have to appeal to a wide general audience, because sales are so low. But manga sells so much that they have to diversify. Their is manga for pretty much every conceivable niche out there.

Demographics is not an excuse. If anything, them being a functioning industry (if you ignore how horribly they treat writers) makes their backwards handling of female characters worse.

[worstblogever]

How has this thread gone on this long without mentioning The Hawkeye Initiative?

[Zelena]

How has this thread gone on this long without mentioning The Hawkeye Initiative?

Ouch… Comics are more demanding to female bodies…

The comics I remember from my childhood looked much less like porn. I suppose today’s comics are more to male teenagers.

[worstblogever]

Ouch… Comics are more demanding to female bodies…

The comics I remember from my childhood looked much less like porn. I suppose today’s comics are more to male teenagers.

The bottom two comics are from the 1990s.