Are “strong female characters” becoming a cliche?

[Zelena]

I suppose that if the subtext wasn’t read by a woman, they could be accused of misoginy…

There’s nothing wrong in being hot, strong, clever and emotionally resilient… If the characters aren’t enough three-dimensional, it isn’t because of their qualities.

I was happy to see again “old” female models…

[OopsIdiditagain]

Are they all starting to feel kind of samey? Are they all starting to follow the same story beats and story arches?

Only if they're made by companies that love to use formulas like Disney. Queen's Gambit, Atomic Blonde, The Witch: Subversion, Avatar the Last Airbender, Vivy's Fluorite Eyes and Korra all have strong female characters but they do not feel the same.

[OopsIdiditagain]

But the morally dubious Olivia Pope, noble-hearted Diana, and know-it-all Hermoine don't have the same story beats. Movie Hermoine is bland because they took some of Ron's best traits and gave it to her, Book Hermoine was still strong had a lot more flaws to overcome.

[Spider-Tiger]

There’s nothing wrong in being hot, strong, clever and emotionally resilient… If the characters aren’t enough three-dimensional, it isn’t because of their qualities.

I don't think the argument here is that these qualities are bad (the video itself weighs the pros and cons of the archetype) ... rather that they can often be used as a crutch by writers as opposed to actually fleshing out their characters. The idea here is that we should strive to give characters (particularly female protagonists who are vastly underrepresented compared to their male counterparts) more meaningful arcs instead of reverting to two-dimensional tropes. There has been progress no doubt, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement.

[Zelena]

I don't think the argument here is that these qualities are bad (the video itself weighs the pros and cons of the archetype) ... rather that they can often be used as a crutch by writers as opposed to actually fleshing out their characters. The idea here is that we should strive to give characters (particularly female protagonists who are vastly underrepresented compared to their male counterparts) more meaningful arcs instead of reverting to two-dimensional tropes. There has been progress no doubt, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement.

But the authors picked examples that aren’t so simplistic: in Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle, Martha isn’t the Hot girl™. She is the Intellectual Girl™. She became a Hot girl but without the manners of one. It was hilarious to see her trying to seduce the guards: she was the Funny One because of this lag.

It is different when movies makers play with the clichés.

[CliffHanger2]

I think labeling WW a "hot heroine" is kinda reductive. And Trinity had nothing to do in the Matrix? and was a trophy?What? Also funny how they put the 'hot" label on Capt. Marvel when pains were taken to avoid that label.

[CosmiComic]

So basically this video misses the point? And since when were people so interested in heroines not looking anything different than the standard? Any one which doesn't conform to Eurocentric stereotypes of female beauty gets bashed at some point.

[Agent Z]

As far as powers and abilities no, but some of them have very similar personalities. I feel their is a lot more variety in “strong male characters,” in the mainstream. They only time you tend to have diverse female personality is in groups with majority female casts were the author is forced to diversify out of necessity.

Where is this variety of strong male characters? They more or less feel the same to me.

[sunofdarkchild]

Strong female characters are a good thing. The way I see it, Disney made 3 bad characters in recent years who happened to be strong women and their high-profile and similarities - plus the painfully obvious political 'sub' text - has led to a backlash. Complaining about Captain Marvel, Mulan, and Rey doesn't mean you can't enjoy watching Wonder Woman or Ahsoka.

I also think as a rule origin stories need to show the hero failing, discovering, and honing their abilities. Peter swinging into the wall when he discovers his webs in Spider-Man 1, Bruce nearly falling to his death when he jumps to the fire escape in Batman Begins, Tony flying into the wall the first time he tries his rocket shoes in Iron Man. These moments seem small, but they make the eventual flight so much more compelling when it happens. That's why Mulan reaching the arrow in the animated version is such a powerful moment, while her carrying the water in the live action version is a joke. The first represents her growth and triumph, the latter is just the latest in a series of magic tricks she does. When given the proper development, audiences will cheer for Ahsoka facing Darth Maul the way they cheered for Luke beating Vader.

[CosmiComic]

Strong female characters are a good thing. The way I see it, Disney made 3 bad characters in recent years who happened to be strong women and their high-profile and similarities - plus the painfully obvious political 'sub' text - has led to a backlash. Complaining about Captain Marvel, Mulan, and Rey doesn't mean you can't enjoy watching Wonder Woman or Ahsoka.

I also think as a rule origin stories need to show the hero failing, discovering, and honing their abilities. Peter swinging into the wall when he discovers his webs in Spider-Man 1, Bruce nearly falling to his death when he jumps to the fire escape in Batman Begins, Tony flying into the wall the first time he tries his rocket shoes in Iron Man. These moments seem small, but they make the eventual flight so much more compelling when it happens. That's why Mulan reaching the arrow in the animated version is such a powerful moment, while her carrying the water in the live action version is a joke. The first represents her growth and triumph, the latter is just the latest in a series of magic tricks she does. When given the proper development, audiences will cheer for Ahsoka facing Darth Maul the way they cheered for Luke beating Vader.

Captain Marvel wasn't even that bad. She was underdeveloped, whereas Rey's development was shortchanged for Kylo's. These two attracted hate before their movies even debuted.

While you make a good point, i remember people complaining about origin stories a lot, so I can see why filmmakers would want to skip that.

[CaptainEurope]

I asked about your perception. Unless you created this video, it won't help me understand.

[Adam Allen]

Captain Marvel wasn't even that bad. She was underdeveloped, whereas Rey's development was shortchanged for Kylo's. These two attracted hate before their movies even debuted.

While you make a good point, i remember people complaining about origin stories a lot, so I can see why filmmakers would want to skip that.

I think Carol's MCU introduction also suffered from its awkward placement, as far as the overall narrative goes. The other characters got the chance to be introduced and evolve over the course of several movies -- not even going to count, but Cap, Tony, your protagonists in Infinity War had been introduced in origin movies that focused solely on them, been allowed to grow through those, as well as being part of ensemble casts through storylines that introduced other characters like Wanda and Vision. Carol's existence is first hinted at after the (to this point) climatic battle with Thanos ... like, most of Infinity War is just action packed battle sequences, culminating in the Avengers actually losing the battle everything has been building up to, then we get to see half the world, including many of the characters the audience has followed and been invested in, turning into dust.

The movie that introduces her comes after all of that, and by the end, it will need to have established that she's going to be possibly the most powerful of all the characters, in the final, ultimate battle in Endgame. What's more, because there is going to be so much else that needs to get done in the movie to reach that point, you're not going to have really any space to expand on her character, in the movie Endgame. She will basically need to just show up for the final fight, and be able to believably go toe-to-toe with Thanos, for her bit of it.

That is a tall order, as far as all you need to get done for a character, in one movie. I thought it was decently done, but I've also heard the MCU movies referred to as "the world's most expensive tv show", and in that regard, Carol's movie was really kind of a filler episode, between Infinity War and Endgame. It's not on the character, that she got shoehorned in, that way.

[CosmiComic]

I think Carol's MCU introduction also suffered from its awkward placement, as far as the overall narrative goes. The other characters got the chance to be introduced and evolve over the course of several movies -- not even going to count, but Cap, Tony, your protagonists in Infinity War had been introduced in origin movies that focused solely on them, been allowed to grow through those, as well as being part of ensemble casts through storylines that introduced other characters like Wanda and Vision. Carol's existence is first hinted at after the (to this point) climatic battle with Thanos ... like, most of Infinity War is just action packed battle sequences, culminating in the Avengers actually losing the battle everything has been building up to, then we get to see half the world, including many of the characters the audience has followed and been invested in, turning into dust.

The movie that introduces her comes after all of that, and by the end, it will need to have established that she's going to be possibly the most powerful of all the characters, in the final, ultimate battle in Endgame. What's more, because there is going to be so much else that needs to get done in the movie to reach that point, you're not going to have really any space to expand on her character, in the movie Endgame. She will basically need to just show up for the final fight, and be able to believably go toe-to-toe with Thanos, for her bit of it.

That is a tall order, as far as all you need to get done for a character, in one movie. I thought it was decently done, but I've also heard the MCU movies referred to as "the world's most expensive tv show", and in that regard, Carol's movie was really kind of a filler episode, between Infinity War and Endgame. It's not on the character, that she got shoehorned in, that way.

I try to avoid the term "filler episode", especially when people also complain a lot about MCU movies doing too much set up.

I think the problem with Carol's first appearance was she the movie didn't develop her personality or motivations as much as other solo heroes. Female heroes in general don't seem to get that as much. Carol still has more personality than Hawkeye though, and probably more than Falcon and Winter Soldier

[Adam Allen]

I try to avoid the term "filler episode", especially when people also complain a lot about MCU movies doing too much set up.

I think the problem with Carol's first appearance was she the movie didn't develop her personality or motivations as much as other solo heroes. Female heroes in general don't seem to get that as much. Carol still has more personality than Hawkeye though, and probably more than Falcon and Winter Soldier

I mean, if her movie wasn't introducing two different alien races, snapshots of their inner workings and conflict between one another, finding a way to have both on earth, for Carol to both get powers and end up aligned with the Kree, then also find a way to have her get a connection with Nick Fury so the end credit bit of Infinity War and her saving Tony in Endgame could make sense ... plus establishing that she is powerful enough that her showing up at a key moment in the ultimate battle would be enough to turn the tide ... then, more of an examination of her personality might have been possible.

I suppose "filler episode" is not exactly fair, in that there was a whole lot that was filled in, in this one movie. It's more that Infinity War picks up and leaves off a narrative thread that had been building through the other movies, and Endgame picks up where IW left off. Carol's movie being stuff that happened before the first Iron Man movie, when Nick Fury was 20 years younger ... again, there was just a whole lot to accomplish in this movie, to get the audience up to speed for who she is by the beginning Endgame.

I'm not even meaning to complain about it, honestly. I thought Captain Marvel was as good as any of the other solo Avengers movies. And honestly, liked it more than Falcon and the Winter Soldier. That show had some issues.

Oh, one of which, by the way, was Karli ... not problematic for being a "strong woman" (and I know, generally this trope is only used to discuss protagonists, but antagonist is still a main character, so go with it!) but for the fact that they seemed to rely on her being young and female making the audience automatically sympathize with her. Karli and the Flag Smashers were not characters you could sympathize with at all, imo. Their motivations and plans were way too vague. And I think that, if their leader had been played by ... I don't know, Orlando Bloom? Stanley Tucci? ... they would have been less likely to take for granted that the audience would understand why Sam wanted to save, rather than just defeat, the antagonist.

Not even saying that it doesn't make some kind of sense, that as far as casting goes, you have Karli played by someone who could be Sam's daughter, and it makes sense that he might empathize with her some. I guess the problem is that ... well, as far as her characterization goes, there was again not much we were given, as far as what should humanize Karli for us, beyond that she was young and female. Those things aside, she was really just kind of a jerk.

[Agent Z]

But the morally dubious Olivia Pope, noble-hearted Diana, and know-it-all Hermoine don't have the same story beats. Movie Hermoine is bland because they took some of Ron's best traits and gave it to her, Book Hermoine was still strong had a lot more flaws to overcome.

Like I said, complaining about strong female characters is pretty cliche. And often full of bad takes.