Curse of the B-Listers, or What Went Wrong With the New Warriors

[Kaijudo]

I tried the book and almost immediately dropped it for a couple reasons:

1. The paint-by-the-numbers plot. There was absolutely nothing exceptional or out-of-the-ordinary about the first couple of issues...no moments that made me sit up and think how curious I was (never mind excited) to see where it was going to go. The most interesting thing for me was the idea of Salem's Seven serving as defenders of their city. Now THAT would be a book I'd be interested in reading.

2. The ratio of old-to-new characters: I'm not opposed to new characters by any stretch, but I think just about any team book relaunch suffers when you skew too heavily in favor of new characters. Here, you had two classic Warriors, a character who'd been around a while but only recently brought back to the foreground, a character that replaced a fan-favorite classic Warrior, a character established as a supporting character in a low-selling book within the last two years, and then some new characters. I don't think the exact original line-up needed to be represented (because new/changed membership represents looking forward, not back), but you need a more solid foundation of the characters the book is known for to build off of. Two original members surrounded by new characters and knockoffs? Not a big draw.

3. The new characters were failures. They did nothing to inspire me to care about them or even really bother learning their names. One was Atlantean, one was tied into the whole Inhumanity thing which Marvel is still trying to make happen, but overall Justice, Speedball, Nova, and Kaine could've just carried around a bunch of cardboard standees and called them their teammates...the impact would've been about the same.

Overall, it's a shame. The concept is a sound one and, done right, could have been something special that broke the curse, especially with To on art. Unfortunately, there was just too much mediocrity and lack of inspiration to make it something special.

[THANOSRULES]

I tried the book and almost immediately dropped it for a couple reasons:

1. The paint-by-the-numbers plot. There was absolutely nothing exceptional or out-of-the-ordinary about the first couple of issues...no moments that made me sit up and think how curious I was (never mind excited) to see where it was going to go. The most interesting thing for me was the idea of Salem's Seven serving as defenders of their city. Now THAT would be a book I'd be interested in reading.

2. The ratio of old-to-new characters: I'm not opposed to new characters by any stretch, but I think just about any team book relaunch suffers when you skew too heavily in favor of new characters. Here, you had two classic Warriors, a character who'd been around a while but only recently brought back to the foreground, a character that replaced a fan-favorite classic Warrior, a character established as a supporting character in a low-selling book within the last two years, and then some new characters. I don't think the exact original line-up needed to be represented (because new/changed membership represents looking forward, not back), but you need a more solid foundation of the characters the book is known for to build off of. Two original members surrounded by new characters and knockoffs? Not a big draw.

3. The new characters were failures. They did nothing to inspire me to care about them or even really bother learning their names. One was Atlantean, one was tied into the whole Inhumanity thing which Marvel is still trying to make happen, but overall Justice, Speedball, Nova, and Kaine could've just carried around a bunch of cardboard standees and called them their teammates...the impact would've been about the same.

Overall, it's a shame. The concept is a sound one and, done right, could have been something special that broke the curse, especially with To on art. Unfortunately, there was just too much mediocrity and lack of inspiration to make it something special.

I'm not sure if the new characters were failures per say...they certainly looked a bit generic and probably scared a lot of people off initially..but they actually were pretty decent IMO..

The sucky thing is they now become just another bunch of the New Warriors cast offs who we wont see again...The New Warriors have a massive inactive roster from these failed launches or whats gone on in A:TI.

As it stands right now some really good thoughts on this thread...marvel should take heed. Although some may think minor I do think the covers may have been actually one of the biggest factors.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

I agree with point 1 but can you expound on point 2? What do you mean by marketing and promotion? I don't come across much for any books so I am curious what people are seeing or think is missing in this area?

I think he means that it was barely ever advertised as opposed to most Avengers and X-men comics where you see a promotion fort them just about everywhere.

I tried the book and almost immediately dropped it for a couple reasons:

1. The paint-by-the-numbers plot. There was absolutely nothing exceptional or out-of-the-ordinary about the first couple of issues...no moments that made me sit up and think how curious I was (never mind excited) to see where it was going to go. The most interesting thing for me was the idea of Salem's Seven serving as defenders of their city. Now THAT would be a book I'd be interested in reading.

2. The ratio of old-to-new characters: I'm not opposed to new characters by any stretch, but I think just about any team book relaunch suffers when you skew too heavily in favor of new characters. Here, you had two classic Warriors, a character who'd been around a while but only recently brought back to the foreground, a character that replaced a fan-favorite classic Warrior, a character established as a supporting character in a low-selling book within the last two years, and then some new characters. I don't think the exact original line-up needed to be represented (because new/changed membership represents looking forward, not back), but you need a more solid foundation of the characters the book is known for to build off of. Two original members surrounded by new characters and knockoffs? Not a big draw.

3. The new characters were failures. They did nothing to inspire me to care about them or even really bother learning their names. One was Atlantean, one was tied into the whole Inhumanity thing which Marvel is still trying to make happen, but overall Justice, Speedball, Nova, and Kaine could've just carried around a bunch of cardboard standees and called them their teammates...the impact would've been about the same.

Overall, it's a shame. The concept is a sound one and, done right, could have been something special that broke the curse, especially with To on art. Unfortunately, there was just too much mediocrity and lack of inspiration to make it something special.

I have to highly disagree.

1. Might be subjective but I thought the plot was interesting and I want too see more. I actually find it more interesting than anything going on in the mainstream books right now.

2. I agree with you here that will have been a factor IF it gets canceled. You need a good balance between old and new when re-launching a series. Otherwise people on one side will be too intimidated.

3. This one I highly disagree with you on this one. I pretty much liked them all. The only one I was apathetic about was Nova. Water Snake's search for Namorita can be interesting. Haechi is clearly freaked out by his powers. Aracely is very optimistic and bubbly. While Sun Girl wants to be the best hero she can.

[Thad937]

I don't think most of the characters starring in this book even count as B-List. I am a fan of Yost and really liked his Scarlet Spider, but here he used some of his other creations like Sun Girl and Hummingbird and I just don't think they had the weight to carry a team book. I also found his original characters for New Warriors, Water Snake and Haechi, to be rather uninspired and uninteresting (especially Haechi). I did very much like Jake Waffles and Mr. Whiskers though.

Really, I loved Haechi. He had some development since he was a new character IMO.

[Darthfury78]

Yost should have brought in other characters as well such as Moondragon, Wolfsbane, and The Black Cat into the series. Thus, Slott would not have gotten his hands on Felicia, thus ruining her character.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Yost should have brought in other characters as well such as Moondragon, Wolfsbane, and The Black Cat into the series. Thus, Slott would not have gotten his hands on Felicia, thus ruining her character.

Black Cat coming over would definitely be better than what's Slott's doing and I can see her fitting in. Wolfsbane and Moon Dragon though? I have my doubts.

[mugiwara]

Last time Yost had his hands on Wolfsbane, he made her eat her father.

[SilverZeal]

Really hoping Yost can squeeze in the resurrection or a tease of a resurrection of Dwayne before his run ends. Man! I really miss Nighthrasher.

Case in point!!!!!

Just a plot regarding d retrn of NT/Dwayne wud alrdy b a gr8 sales pitch dat wud also reel-in sum gd additnal sales numbrs frm NT/fans.

4 all gdness sake NT/Dwayne is d duded who cre8d d NW', so does any1 bring bk a NW title without him in it, seriously?!?

[SilverZeal]

Marvel should really re evaluate there stance on Night Thrasher...I dont know if a he has legion 40k fans out there ...but he does have a following..and some of these folks , out of fruistration would not support a NW book simply due to his absence.

When Quesada took over as EiC A live Action Night Thrasher TV show was in pretty advanced state..He had a decent spin off series from NW which led to an ongoing. It seems through the years Quesada and others simply think the character is dumb...but they probably just never read him.

He has a good look (s) He has a great list of supporting characters that can work as both gritty street level ninja stuff, and a bit more fantastic or mystical as well. (Wellspring, Folding Circle,Smiling Tiger Midnights Fire, SIl Bengal, Chord, Tai)

Yeah I know he had some strong similarities to Batman and he was sometimes the "Angry Black guy" stereotype...but a lot about him was really cool.

I know Kevin Grievioux was a big fan of Dwayne and wanted to use him, but editors mandated otherwise. Even DOnyell had a good motivation for a character...I liked what KG did for him. Gage alos did some nice stuff with him. Then the bottom fell out and he just disappeared again.

His status as a minority was a strength, not a weakness.

Night Thrasher I or II should be brought back...and he should be part of the New Warriors...

Very well said, agrd & cosignd!

NT is Marvel's perfect anwr 2 Nytwing/Grayson...but y r dey sooo adamant 2 use dis guy.

Inspite of wat othrs hv said we/SZ actually lykd Grevioux's NW & wat he did with Donyell, lyk all things it wasnt perfect but it was pretty gd. Though we/SZ wud still prefer Dwayne retrn as NT & Donyell can b Dwayne's partner. Its terrible dat Grevioux was denied Dwayne.

Wudnt it b awesome if Nicieza, Grevioux & Yost brought their heads 2gthr on d nxt NW series & a NT solo?

[THANOSRULES]

BTW since this thread is dedicated to B-listers...in some ways the last few months has been one of the best ever for B-listers...The top 10 last month had Rocket Raccoon, Star Lord and Spidey 2099 and the new Grayson series. All former B-listers or below. That's Crazy!


Spidey 2099 really bears some relevance for this book NW. He was "slow rolled" back into the spotlight in a top selling Marvel Title (Spidey) and they didn't rush his ongoing.. they let his return simmer a bit with fans and gain some traction...the book outside of SPidey wasn't promo'd a ton.. but it he had relevance in the top selling book, which carries serious weight. Its very similar what happened with Hawkeye.

The New Warriors have always had some connections with the SPider Verse...maybe some work needs to be done in those books re building. We know from his A:TI days, Dan Slott is a fan.

So its not all bad news..