Wonder Woman & the World Wars

[HsssH]

We often get stories about hero travelling to another dimension where time moves faster than in main continuity so that the hero could develop some skills or grow up if its a kid hero and then return to main continuity. Well then, if we really want Diana to be gone after WW2 then we can do the opposite story, no? She could have some epic adventure (maybe chasing some escaping Nazi villains) in some alternate dimension. Maybe spends there few years and eventually returns, but then shocker, it turns out that 60 years passed in main continuity.

I think there are many ways to make this work, but to me biggest concerns are these two:
1. We get something like 6 issues story arc that deals with WW2 and then it is not mentioned ever again. No, if we are doing Diana in WW2 then it should be a proper run (maybe a second ongoing book or a series of... mini-series) that explores that time period and leaves room for additional stories if some later writer wants to return to that time period. Last thing we need is an adaptation of WW movie.
2. It is treated as a rumour. WW returns from her exile or some very long adventure in another planet/dimension/whatever and everyone goes "oh, I heard the stories, but I always thought that they weren't real". If that happens then its all pointless. Superman and Batman (and basically anyone who read a history book about WW2) have to be aware of her while growing up, if not then there is no point in her being the first.

[Jim Kelly]

The larger question is How old is Diana? When was she created/born?

Some stories say she came into being thousands of years ago. And time for her and the rest of the Amazons isn't what it is for us--to them such long life is natural. She's like Promethea or rather Promethea is like her--she's been around during several epochs. And when she's not in Man's World, she's back home in Themyscira where time is a different concept.

However, if you're coming at Wonder Woman as if she was newly born, I can understand why that poses problems.

The thing is to sort out those assumptions first, before we can start to talk about what her life has been like. We need to know how long she's been around, before we can establish what she's been doing in that time.

[Alpha]

She is as old as necessary for her history. And that's exactoy what we are discussing. When people recently started saying that Diana might be 2000 years old I am puzzled as to what purpose this serves. Why would she spend 1900 years on the Island?

[Jim Kelly]

She is as old as necessary for her history. And that's exactoy what we are discussing. When people recently started saying that Diana might be 2000 years old I am puzzled as to what purpose this serves. Why would she spend 1900 years on the Island?

That's not a good enough answer for me. It just leads to a chicken and the egg scenario. Before one can have a discussion, there has to be common ground. If everyone has their own idea of the character and her biography--and we don't establish what that is--then we're just going to argue past each other and never achieve any understanding.

I would say she has to be 3000 years old in the movie. Because she was created just before the Amazons came to the island--and that would have been around 1000 B.C. or earlier, given the history of Ancient Greece and the myths. And it's clear in the movie that time passes different on the island. So she's only around twenty years old physically/emotionally when Steve's plane crashes.

This idea that Themiscyra is outside of normal time and space has been used in the comic books and I don't think it's such a difficult leap of imagination.

[Perseus]

Diana is generally speaking 3000+ years old, not including the 1000 years she spent fighting demons in Valhalla along side Superman and Thor. She was born/sculpted around the time of the Roman empire, specifically when they used centurions.

She is the oldest member on the league, but that doesn't mean she should be introduced as "the first". As McNights pointed out one of the possible scenarios that would play out of Diana leaving and being "inspired" to return via Superman and Batman. It takes away her individual choice.

The only way I can see this playing out alright is if we did what some other posters have said. Go with the "Nazi's had super advance weapons all along" trope, revamp Paula Von Gunther as an unapologetic nazi super spy and Red Panzer as nazi general in an iron monger/war machine type warsuit, and have Diana deal with that while the allied forces engage in the "real" war. But then there is still the fact that she didn't change much afterwards or she just left or was essentially bulled back to Themyscira by the US government/the world based on her radical views. The US dropping the bombs on Japan sounds like something Diana would just give up on humanity over but, morally speaking would she not intervene? In fact it would be extremely out of character for Diana to allow the death of all those people. Its just a back move all around.

Edit: there is also the fact that your just copying and pasting Captain America.

[Alpha]

The roman empire started 2000 years ago.

[Alpha]

I mean, we can just follow the actual World War 2 stories Diana had under Marston. No need to worry about it.

How would Diana know that the U.S. was gonna drop a bomb in the first place for her to stop it? Did the general population know that the bomb even existed? I'm oretty sure it was a secret, that only Soviet intelligence knew about.

And why can't Diana have been sculpted 20 years before she left the Island? Why should she spend more time than that on Themyscira. Diana should be an adventurer, curious about the world outaide. It makes no sense for her to wait that long.

[Jim Kelly]

Captain America and Wonder Woman both had stories coming out during the Second World War--so I don't see how one is copying the other. If you want to know what adventures they had back then, you just have to read those comics.

Since there were legions of super-heroes fighting the Nazis in the 1940s, I don't see why these two characters need to be singled out. And the reason so many comic books used Hitler as a villain is because he's such a compelling villain. Why make up a poorer version of der Führer when you can use the real deal? The Nazis were really Evil. I'd rather see them in stories from the time rather than distracting us with unimportant gangsters.

And Hitler and his pals really were interested in mythology, mysticism and religious iconography. That's why they work so well in RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK. The comic books had supernatural forces on the side of the Axis. In the Wonder Woman comics, Ares is on their side. So that's why the other gods want Wonder Woman to come and counter his efforts.

You also have the retroactive continuity, thanks to Paul Levitz, that Hitler had the Spear of Destiny which stopped the super-heroes from fighting the Nazis in Europe. And then in SUPERMAN 22 (May/June 1943), we learn that Ixnayalpay and his Squiffles--magical goblins--are in league with Hitler, so it's easy to say that the Squiffles are yet another supernatural element on the side of the Axis against the Allies (who have the Gremlins in their camp).

[WonderLight789]

I agree with many of the posts here. And it makes me wonder. Does anybody here still find any evidence that the future for this character could be better? Because it doesn't look like editors, DC and WB care that much about WW and her lore. Which is nothing new really, but some people seem to have hope. But i have to ask, is this hope able to sustain itself based on some concrete evidence, or are we just waisting time wishing for the best that never truly comes?

[Perseus]

The roman empire started 2000 years ago.

My bad, I meant to say including the 1000 years in Valhalla not "not including". But the point is she's been alive for a while and that's pretty cool honestly.

I mean, we can just follow the actual World War 2 stories Diana had under Marston. No need to worry about it.

How would Diana know that the U.S. was gonna drop a bomb in the first place for her to stop it? Did the general population know that the bomb even existed? I'm oretty sure it was a secret, that only Soviet intelligence knew about.

And why can't Diana have been sculpted 20 years before she left the Island? Why should she spend more time than that on Themyscira. Diana should be an adventurer, curious about the world outaide. It makes no sense for her to wait that long.

The Golden Age stories no longer work in a modern sense if you couldn't tell by all the people not fully supporting the possibility of her debut being in WW2.

The army nurse that works with the US super spy Steve Trevor in a military organization wouldn't know about the bombs?

So Hippolyta is gonna wait some 1000's of years before she desperately wants a child? It doesn't work because you have to take into the consideration of her mother's wants and needs. Hippolyta would rebuild Themyscira in several months maybe a year and afterwards beg the gods for a child. You'd be ignoring Hippolyta's character in doing so. And again, she can still be curious and be adventurous on the islands but when you have your mom and everyone else around you say that there isn't much out there and your only a kid chances are your going to believe them for a good while.

[Perseus]

Captain America and Wonder Woman both had stories coming out during the Second World War--so I don't see how one is copying the other. If you want to know what adventures they had back then, you just have to read those comics.

Since there were legions of super-heroes fighting the Nazis in the 1940s, I don't see why these two characters need to be singled out. And the reason so many comic books used Hitler as a villain is because he's such a compelling villain. Why make up a poorer version of der Führer when you can use the real deal? The Nazis were really Evil. I'd rather see them in stories from the time rather than distracting us with unimportant gangsters.

And Hitler and his pals really were interested in mythology, mysticism and religious iconography. That's why they work so well in RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK. The comic books had supernatural forces on the side of the Axis. In the Wonder Woman comics, Ares is on their side. So that's why the other gods want Wonder Woman to come and counter his efforts.

You also have the retroactive continuity, thanks to Paul Levitz, that Hitler had the Spear of Destiny which stopped the super-heroes from fighting the Nazis in Europe. And then in SUPERMAN 22 (May/June 1943), we learn that Ixnayalpay and his Squiffles--magical goblins--are in league with Hitler, so it's easy to say that the Squiffles are yet another supernatural element on the side of the Axis against the Allies (who have the Gremlins in their camp).

Captain America was created specifically as a moral boost for soldiers, that's what made him difficult to bring back into the Marvel fold after WW2. He punched Hitler, that's mostly all he did. Diana was created for a lot more then just fighting Nazis. As someone has stated already "WW2 is a setting, its not Diana".

[Alpha]

My bad, I meant to say including the 1000 years in Valhalla not "not including". But the point is she's been alive for a while and that's pretty cool honestly.

It's a cool thing if it means that she went through countless adventures, not if she spent all that time on the same island.

The Golden Age stories no longer work in a modern sense if you couldn't tell by all the people not fully supporting the possibility of her debut being in WW2.

The complaints people have about her existing since WW2 have nothing to do with the creativity of the Marston stories and how he handled the war conflict.

The army nurse that works with the US super spy Steve Trevor in a military organization wouldn't know about the bombs?

Unless Steve was actually involved in the manhattan project, I don't see why he would know about the bomb. The less he knew about it the less he could divulge.

So Hippolyta is gonna wait some 1000's of years before she desperately wants a child?

Yes. As far as I'm concerned, Paradise Island should be treated as a place where their souls come to heal and blossom. Hippolyta would spend the millenia building a new society, developing unique technology and spirituality and art, studying the nature of this unique enviroment, etc

And I'm sure that many conflicts would emerge as the amazons tried to define the new rules of their world, and as others arrived over time and transformed their society even further. There's a whole lot for Hippolyta to do before her life is filled with that hole awating for a child. And even after Hippolyta starts to acknowledge her desire for a child, I don't see why she would get one right away. I think it should take a long time for this wish to be fulfilled.

Diana is supposed to be this extraordinary thing that breaks the long cycle of the amazons. And for that to happen they must have spent a long ass time developing their culture.

[Perseus]

It's a cool thing if it means that she went through countless adventures, not if she spent all that time on the same island.




The complaints people have about her existing since WW2 have nothing to do with the creativity of the Marston stories and how he handled the war conflict.



Unless Steve was actually involved in the manhattan project, I don't see why he would know about the bomb. The less he knew about it the less he could divulge.



Yes. As far as I'm concerned, Paradise Island should be treated as a place where their souls come to heal and blossom. Hippolyta would spend the millenia building a new society, developing unique technology and spirituality and art, studying the nature of this unique enviroment, etc

And I'm sure that many conflicts would emerge as the amazons tried to define the new rules of their world, and as others arrived over time and transformed their society even further. There's a whole lot for Hippolyta to do before her life is filled with that hole awating for a child. And even after Hippolyta starts to acknowledge her desire for a child, I don't see why she would get one right away. I think it should take a long time for this wish to be fulfilled.

Diana is supposed to be this extraordinary thing that breaks the long cycle of the amazons. And for that to happen they must have spent a long ass time developing their culture.

I'm not talking about the creativity, though to be fair I don't latch onto the Golden Age that much outside of some concepts, I'm talking about the fact that the only reason Diana was even involved in WW2 was because of the time all the heroes occupied in. You can tell Diana's story anywhere at anytime. Putting her in the past if for no reason then an empty handed gesture of being "the first" means nothing when you consider what happened that she either let happen or just felt she didn't need to be involved. New Frontier works as an elseworlds because it basically made its own history. We have to live in canon stories that take place in the now.

I don't think the amazons would take long to figure out who they are tbh. They have a whole history prior to the island with at least 9 queens DC can explore. Hippolyta would responsible for bringing the amazons back to their routes not full redeveloping their culture and laws, outside of rebuilding their city and becoming comfortable on living on the island their isn't much else to do besides keeping Dooms Doorway on lockdown. And the advancements in science can happen while Diana is learning and growing on the island, unless the amazons would have advance tech before the relocation.

[Jim Kelly]

Captain America was created specifically as a moral boost for soldiers, that's what made him difficult to bring back into the Marvel fold after WW2. He punched Hitler, that's mostly all he did. Diana was created for a lot more then just fighting Nazis. As someone has stated already "WW2 is a setting, its not Diana".

Actually, Cap and Bucky continued in publication until the end of 1949--which is longer than a lot of other super-heroes managed to stick around after the war. They were then brought back in late 1953 and early 1954 for more adventures.

The Blackhawks were born out of the horrors of the war--that was clearly their origin--yet they continued in publication until the late 1960s without a break, even when their original publisher went out of business, their book continued under new ownership with Dick Dillin never having to worry about losing his steady gig.

[wonder39]

I couldn't agree more with this post. Wonder Woman debuting during the 40s messes up some key figures of her supporting cast and she doesn't really get anything that important in return because DC editors don't actually seem willing to truly explore what it would mean for her to have been around for so long and to remain an active hero to this day.
Since the Omniverse is such a big part of the post Death Metal DC, it would make way more sense to restore Earth-2 as the world where Diana was WW during WWII and leave Earth-0's Diana with a more recent origin like Year One's.

Doomsday Clock basically did that, but gods know if that is even still true since Death Metal seemed to eff everything up again...

DDC revealed that each reality altering event didnt destroy what came before, but splintered off a neww Earth with it's new reality, leaving what came before intact. So we all versions of Diana, each on it's own Earth.
Eath 2 Golden Age
Earth 1 Silver Bronze Age ( now called Earth 1985)
Earth Post Crisis
FlaspointbEarth
Earth 52
Earth Rebirth
Etc....