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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonder39 View Post
    Doomsday Clock basically did that, but gods know if that is even still true since Death Metal seemed to eff everything up again...

    DDC revealed that each reality altering event didnt destroy what came before, but splintered off a neww Earth with it's new reality, leaving what came before intact. So we all versions of Diana, each on it's own Earth.
    Eath 2 Golden Age
    Earth 1 Silver Bronze Age ( now called Earth 1985)
    Earth Post Crisis
    FlaspointbEarth
    Earth 52
    Earth Rebirth
    Etc....
    Yes, but DC need to actually do something with those Earths.
    If they want WWII adventures, they could focus on Earth-2 instead of retconning Earth-0 yet again.
    I hope Infinite Frontier can make them focus a bit more on the Omniverse, because there's tons of potential in exploring alternate Earths.

  2. #62
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    To be fair... this whole thread is about a "what if scenario" because, from what I'm guessing, the solicits about Diana's adventures through the multiverse and her fighting her Earth #? male counter part in her golden age duds and that interview with Conrad right? Is there anything confirming that she's debuting in WW2 or is it just rumor?
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  3. #63
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    I don't think the amazons would take long to figure out who they are tbh.
    To be fair to you, I have my own fan version of what Paradise Island should be like as a complex utopia. The current version of the island seems to just be the roman republic but with women and no slaves. In that sense it wouldn't take that long. But don't forget that they went from being a warrior culture in a world of man, to being a peaceful monarchy. I'm sure a lot of amazons were filled with trauma and rage that they had to overcome as a group, and I doubt that all the amazons agreed eith the state of things for the rest of the millenia, so at some point Hippolyta must have had some conflicts as queen


    Anyway, I still can't accept the idea of Diana spending 2000 years on the island. It's just not the Diana I enjoy. She should be an adventurer, full of curiosity and of a desire for challenges. 2000 years is 12 lifetimes. Your version of Diana would spend enough time on the island for someone to be born, live a full life of 80 years, die, and be reborn 11 times to do the same thing. It's a major bummer. I don't see the appeal at all.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    So Hippolyta is gonna wait some 1000's of years before she desperately wants a child? It doesn't work because you have to take into the consideration of her mother's wants and needs. Hippolyta would rebuild Themyscira in several months maybe a year and afterwards beg the gods for a child. You'd be ignoring Hippolyta's character in doing so. And again, she can still be curious and be adventurous on the islands but when you have your mom and everyone else around you say that there isn't much out there and your only a kid chances are your going to believe them for a good while.
    Going by Gods and Mortals, either the Goddesses induced the desire for a child in her, Diana's soul was crying out for her from Gaea's womb and she finally heard it or she was so severely traumatized by her experience with Heracles that she dedicated herself entirely to her duties as Queen and it took 3000 years before she decided the time was right for having a child.

    If Diana was the first child to be born on Themsycira but she's been an adult for several thousand years by the time Steve Trevor crash lands on Themyscira, then how she is really any different from the other Amazons? IMO, Diana having aged normally from a child to an adult is part of what makes her perspective unique.

    EDIT: If you are going to make Diana several thousand years old, then don't just focus on one era but explore all the different eras that she would have been around for. The reason why Snyder made her 5000 years old is because his take was that she was chasing Ares through battlefields for centuries.

    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    Captain America was created specifically as a moral boost for soldiers, that's what made him difficult to bring back into the Marvel fold after WW2. He punched Hitler, that's mostly all he did. Diana was created for a lot more then just fighting Nazis. As someone has stated already "WW2 is a setting, its not Diana".
    I like this quote.
    Last edited by John Venus; 06-05-2021 at 07:02 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    To be fair to you, I have my own fan version of what Paradise Island should be like as a complex utopia. The current version of the island seems to just be the roman republic but with women and no slaves. In that sense it wouldn't take that long. But don't forget that they went from being a warrior culture in a world of man, to being a peaceful monarchy. I'm sure a lot of amazons were filled with trauma and rage that they had to overcome as a group, and I doubt that all the amazons agreed eith the state of things for the rest of the millenia, so at some point Hippolyta must have had some conflicts as queen


    Anyway, I still can't accept the idea of Diana spending 2000 years on the island. It's just not the Diana I enjoy. She should be an adventurer, full of curiosity and of a desire for challenges. 2000 years is 12 lifetimes. Your version of Diana would spend enough time on the island for someone to be born, live a full life of 80 years, die, and be reborn 11 times to do the same thing. It's a major bummer. I don't see the appeal at all.
    You may imagine Diana as being this wannabe explorer who's spent her whole life wanting to get off Themyscera, but there's very little in any version of the character so far that indicates that. Yes, she may have been curious about Man's World, but she's never been portrayed as desperately wanting to get off Themyscera before Steve Trevor showed up (or whatever her reason is for leaving).

    With that said, it doesn't really make a difference if Diana lives 20 years on Themyscera before leaving or 2000 years. Nothing changes much on the island in all that time. Diana and the Amazons just carry on with their lives until the circumstances that lead Diana to want to leave. Yes, making her 2000 years old may not really serve a plot purpose beyond establishing her as an immortal Amazon. But what purpose does making her 20 years old when she comes to Man's World serve either?

    I just don't get this obsession with wanting to make Diana the same age (or younger) than the other heroes? J'onn is much older than the other Leaguers (and canonically, he's lived on earth disguised as a human decades longer than most of the others have been alive)...no one's clamoring for him to be 20 or 30 something? Why does that have to be the case for Diana?

    Its immaterial how old she is when Trevor first meets her. All that's important is that she's the youngest Amazon and the only one who was a child.

    This is an issue separate from whether Diana should debut during a world war or not. I see no reason why she has to chronologically be the same age as Superman or Batman when being from an immortal race is a fundamental part of her mythos.

  6. #66
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    I'm pretty sure that the Perez run established the Amazons came to Themyscira three thousand years ago, which was more than a thousand years before the Roman Empire existed.

    You also have the Marston and Peter version of events, in WONDER WOMAN No. 1 (Summer 1942), where Hercules conquered the Amazons and put them in chains, but then Aphrodite broke their chains and Hippolyte defeated Hercules, then led her sisters on ships across the sea to Paradise Island.

    This is in line with the Ancient Greek myths set around the 13th century B.C. In the myths either Hercules or Theseus (or both) defeated Hippolyte/Antiope and took the Amazons as slaves. Hercules and Theseus are from the generation before the Trojan War, which is dated at around the 13th or 12th century B.C. and this is confirmed by archaeological evidence at the site.

    And in the movie, it's clearly after the Amazons were taken into slavery and when the Olympian gods were killed (except for Ares) that Zeus left the Amazons the God Killer (i.e. Diana) and with his dying breath created the island to hide them from the outside world. Which means Diana had to exist at that point in time.

    It doesn't make much sense that the architecture and armour of the Amazons sometimes looks Roman (depending on the artist). Maybe the artists and writers are lacking in education and just think as long as it looks ancient that's good enough.

    I have two in-story reasons for how these anachronisms might exist on Themyscira.

    One is the Platonic Ideal. Plato said that there is the ideal world, which we can't see and then there's our mundane world. Although we can't see it, we draw inspiration from the ideal world and the ideal forms. So the Amazons could be inspired by the ideal forms, which influence their art, architecture and armour.

    The other explanation is that the Amazons still keep in contact with the outside world, during their three thousand plus years on the island. It could be that certain Amazons are allowed to leave on their rumspringa and when they come back, they bring back knowledge and artifacts from the outside world. Or it could be that certain women and objects are allowed to come to Themiscyra from the outside world. I prefer to think that many women over the centuries have arrived on the island and found refuge there. It could also be that the Amazons keep in contact with the Bana-Mighdall.

    This would explain how Diana can speak so many different languages, even though she's never left the island. However, I prefer to think Diana has visited Man's World many times over the centuries. Either her or a sister Amazon--maybe Philippus. It would be cool to have stories set in different periods where an Amazon visits King Arthur, Charlemagne, Kublai Khan, Shakespeare, the Mayans, the Belle Époque.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    EDIT: If you are going to make Diana several thousand years old, then don't just focus on one era but explore all the different eras that she would have been around for. The reason why Snyder made her 5000 years old is because his take was that she was chasing Ares through battlefields for centuries
    Diana leaving Paradise Island to stop Ares from causing wars before the 19th century is interesting.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    With that said, it doesn't really make a difference if Diana lives 20 years on Themyscera before leaving or 2000 years. Nothing changes much on the island in all that time. Diana and the Amazons just carry on with their lives until the circumstances that lead Diana to want to leave. Yes, making her 2000 years old may not really serve a plot purpose beyond establishing her as an immortal Amazon. But what purpose does making her 20 years old when she comes to Man's World serve either?

    All that's important is that she's the youngest Amazon and the only one who was a child.
    Ask yourself why it's important she be the youngest.
    Diana's youth plays into her curiosity and idealism. Her youth is part of what separates her from the other Amazons and one of the things that distinguishes her as the only one who left Themyscira because she wanted to help people, as opposed to the other Amazons who entered the Contest and would've left out of simple duty and obligation (and would likely just go back home when their job was done).

    I would argue Diana's youth is relevant. Like John Venus said, if she's already thousands of years old, then it doesn't really matter that she's the youngest one. She's just another Amazon. Stuff like that does matter. Just like whether Diana was the only child on Themyscira matters.

    I saw in the Superman forum a small debate crop up about whether Clark should remember Krypton or not from his childhood. While that might seem like a minor issue, it should actually have significant ramifications on how he views himself, his Kryptonian heritage, and his ties to Earth. Again, that stuff matters in shaping who these characters are.

    Or at least they should. Maybe I'm expecting too much from comic book writing.

    Similarly, Diana's age should matter in regard to her outlook, her motivation, and general disposition. To say it doesn't suggests she's a static cypher--unchanging and unaffected by her own life and experiences. And that goes back to what I'd been saying about how saying Wonder Woman has been around since World War II (or earlier) should have significant impact on who she is and how she acts.

    Or you contrive a way for her to start in WWII and instantly jump to the present via time travel or losing her memory or just going home to sit on her ass for a hundred years...at which point I must then ask why then even bother putting her WWII at all? Why add this unnecessary complication to her backstory just to shoe-horn her into WWII and otherwise add nothing of value to her character?


    As for the question of why Hippolyta would wait almost 3000 years before having Diana...well, it wasn't just her though. The gods are the ones who actually brought Diana to life, and her age, whatever it may be, is basically dictated by when (and why) they decided to grant that wish.
    Hippolyta surely did want a daughter for thousands of years. Doesn't mean the gods gave her one until they thought the time was right.

    kjn made a thread about a year ago that brought this topic up, and my position was basically the gods don't do anything for free or out of the kindness of their hearts. They gave Hippolyta a daughter knowing said daughter had a big destiny in store and only did so when the time for that destiny was on the horizon.

    To me, Diana being as old as she looks (mid-to-late twenties) not only plays into her idealism and curiosity and desire to leave Themyscira, it adds to Hippolyta's protectiveness of her.
    She knows the gods wouldn't give her a daughter without a price, and of course she's going to to what she can to keep Diana from entering the Contest and leaving the island. The fact she would only have her daughter for two decades and change out of 3000 years makes that fear & desire even stronger.

  9. #69
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    Well let's say that for every year that passes in Man's World, only one day passes in Themyscira. So in 365 of our years, only one year will have passed on the island.

  10. #70
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    To be fair... this whole thread is about a "what if scenario" because, from what I'm guessing, the solicits about Diana's adventures through the multiverse and her fighting her Earth #? male counter part in her golden age duds and that interview with Conrad right? Is there anything confirming that she's debuting in WW2 or is it just rumor?
    It was DC's original plan for Diana for G5, and while it looks like it got scrapped after Didio was fired and G5 was recycled into Future State. The new writers for WW ongoing implied in a podcast that some of those elements might not have been completely done away with, with Conrad saying "In the real world she's been around for 80 years and in the comic world she might have been around for longer then that." and he followed up with that by saying he, "doesn't want to spoil too much there".

    So, obviously that's not much to go off of and no one knows what he means by that, whether she will be tied into WWII or time travel is involved or some third option. Or maybe it means nothing at all, lol.

    We'll just have to find out.
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 06-05-2021 at 10:31 AM.

  11. #71
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    I agree with the idea that Diana doesn't have to be the same age as Batman and Superman, but if she is gonna be 40 years old then she has to feel that old.

    A 40 years old Diana that never left Themyscira also didn't go through our normal stages of development like graduating school, leaving home, finding a job, etc. But her at 20 years old should still be different from her at 40 years old.

    I'm not saying that she has to be like the 40 year old women I know, but she has to feel like she has that age.

  12. #72
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Seems like me and Guy_McNichts agree on this issue.

    Jim Kelly, I totally agree that women should arrive on Paradise Island over the centuries. I don't understand what your goal is with having time in Themyscira pass at a different rate than on the rest of the world. I don't have a definitive opposition, just don't quite understand why it is something you want.

  13. #73
    Mighty Member wonder39's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Factor View Post
    Yes, but DC need to actually do something with those Earths.
    If they want WWII adventures, they could focus on Earth-2 instead of retconning Earth-0 yet again.
    I hope Infinite Frontier can make them focus a bit more on the Omniverse, because there's tons of potential in exploring alternate Earths.
    Well that's what I'm saying. There should be no need to screw up her origin again ( especially since Rebirth just tried to fix it) . I'm even ok justvknowing Earth 2 is out there, even if we don't revist it, if it means or they don't force the WwII narrative on her again.

    And just what the hell is the omniverse supposed to be anyways? Just a more confusing Multiverse .... DC always has this need to overcomplicate things instead of making things simpler and easier.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post

    Jim Kelly, I totally agree that women should arrive on Paradise Island over the centuries. I don't understand what your goal is with having time in Themyscira pass at a different rate than on the rest of the world. I don't have a definitive opposition, just don't quite understand why it is something you want.
    It's not something I want all that much. I was just trying to work out a compromise that would satisfy Guy_McNichts, but I'm not married to the idea.

    There are several scenarios I can think of. But the one I most favour is that Paradise Island exists on a different plane of reality, governed by all kinds of mystical properties.

    It seems like some readers want a certain brand of realism, but it's the Marvel brand. They want some characters to be anchored in time like Captain America but others on a sliding time scale like Spider-Man. But not every comic book company should have to play by those rules.

    In the past there were comic books where the characters stayed young all the time and yet stuck around year after year. And there were other comic books that were totally in real time. And then there were other comics that always took place in a past era. But the watchword of most D.C. fans these days is "Make Mine Marvel."

  15. #75
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    But even if she was 3000 years old and on the island, her experience would still only be on the island. She still would be new to the world when she arrives. She maybe wiser then a late 20 year old but isn't that a good thing? Like she isn't gawking over some of the mundane stuff that writers have "fish out of water" characters do.
    Last edited by Perseus; 06-05-2021 at 08:40 PM.
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