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  1. #1
    All-New Member Frances's Avatar
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    Default Batman/Catwoman #5

    It's been out for 4/5 days and, unless I've missed it, there's no thread yet. I guess that means nobody cares about this title any longer? I don't, but I'm also a Cat nut and between this and the main series (the main main series, not that one about that Bat) - slim pickings, you know? Yeah, I won't get started on Ram V's run here...

    I don't know what to say about Bat/Cat 5. It was just plain terrible. The characters aren't even consistent panel-to-panel in the same flipping timeline, nevermind across three. Selina in the middle (?) timeline was a pastiche—I'm trying to be kind—of an experience that anyone with genuine insight into would say—"Dude, seriously. Just no. No. No. No. You. Don't. Get it."—but King being King overdoes it in a pretense that he does. All he needed was this

    bat-cat5 pieta.jpg

    Proceeded by a few panels/half-splashes of drinking; burgling; bumbling and NO DIALOGUE. The full-splash Bat/Cat pieta that was almost, almost iconic, but he even managed to ruin that with one of his childish, sweary stars bubble. At least there was no carol blaring out from the batmobile's Spotify account. Ah, King, you might've gotten away with it if you weren't the most terrible Scooby-Doo villain.

    Overall, the dialogue was meh, and the characterisations were all tell, tell, tell. Replace all those sweary stars with "very" and suddenly I'm watching my kids playing with their Lego. It's a comic book; let the art speak. I don't know. I don't want to tear into it any more. It feels cruel; King is looking like an absolute amateur at this stage.

    Somebody—anybody—tell me they're enjoying this series. Is there something I'm missing? Something to discuss? Something important being added to the canon? A new perspective to obsess and puzzle over? I'm seriously wondering whether I've gone dense or if DC need to start hiring some of us to 'very' sort Selina out.
    Only here for The C@

  2. #2
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    I like the art, especially for Phantasm.

    I’m curious, what is it about Catwoman you feel King doesn’t understand?

  3. #3
    Extraordinary Member sifighter's Avatar
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    If I’m truly honest I kind of wish that King had focused exclusively on the future storyline. I genuinely like the conflict of Helena and Selina because Selina waited for Bruce to die before she carried out revenge on the Joker and Helena is well aware but as Batwoman she knows she has to do something because her mom broke the law. I think there’s a lot more potential with that story.

    I’m not sure how to feel about the supposed connection between Joker and Selina, King seems to be writing it as though people question how close they are which I really hope isn’t some romantic foreshadowing. I really just prefer the idea of he’s hounding her because he’s aware of her closeness to Bruce.

    I can’t say I really cared for Harley in this issue, it was a bit odd that she came back for vengeance because she didn’t get the chance to kill Joker. It felt a bit forced not really lining up with the more independent Harley we know and honestly I would have preferred if they used someone like Punchline or a new Harley like White Knight.
    "It's fun and it's cool, so that's all that matters. It's what comics are for, Duh."
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  4. #4
    Mighty Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    If I’m truly honest I kind of wish that King had focused exclusively on the future storyline. I genuinely like the conflict of Helena and Selina because Selina waited for Bruce to die before she carried out revenge on the Joker and Helena is well aware but as Batwoman she knows she has to do something because her mom broke the law. I think there’s a lot more potential with that story.

    I’m not sure how to feel about the supposed connection between Joker and Selina, King seems to be writing it as though people question how close they are which I really hope isn’t some romantic foreshadowing. I really just prefer the idea of he’s hounding her because he’s aware of her closeness to Bruce.

    I can’t say I really cared for Harley in this issue, it was a bit odd that she came back for vengeance because she didn’t get the chance to kill Joker. It felt a bit forced not really lining up with the more independent Harley we know and honestly I would have preferred if they used someone like Punchline or a new Harley like White Knight.
    I was really enjoying the series at first, which I didn't like King's run on Batman at all. This opinion has since degraded. Typical King decompression and endless panels of little to no dialogue. Clay Mann and Phantasm are the only things keeping me on the book.
    Pulls: Batman, Detective Comics, Star Wars, Crossover, Commanders in Crisis, Something is Killing the Children, Flash, Nightwing, and Iron Man.
    My runs: Batman #230-, and Detective #438-.

  5. #5
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    I care. I care very much.

    However nothing really happened in the latest issue and I wasn't keen on Harley STILL be tied to Joker. it's King. I'm sure something huge is coming and everything so far is building it, I just can't see it yet so this felt a little hollow.

    I still get a HUGE swell of nostalgic joy every time I see that Phantasm costume, though.
    Just. Be. Nice.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixSpeedSamurai View Post
    I was really enjoying the series at first, which I didn't like King's run on Batman at all. This opinion has since degraded. Typical King decompression and endless panels of little to no dialogue. Clay Mann and Phantasm are the only things keeping me on the book.



    I bought all of King's run of Batman and enjoyed it for the most part. Sometimes it was really good, and other times it didn't make sense. ,I know the plan was for him to do 100 issues which would have been really good. But it got derailed at DC , so it was cut to 85 issues , not counting Annuals . I didn't like him killing off Alfred ,but he did it.
    I've been getting all of Bat / Cat issues so far and the art is excellent , even love the paper that's printed on.
    I think that this storyline is not what King originally had in mind had he stayed on Batman.
    But after picking up #5 , I'm really thinking of just cutting my losses and dropping it.
    Maybe it will read better as a TP when it's all done. And at $4.99 an issue , he didn't really offer much in this issue.
    I have seen some of King's Batman run in TP , and it looks good. Maybe he's just better at writing a Trade over single issues.

  7. #7
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    Hey , posted in this thread already.
    I bought all of King's Batman run, and the Bat./Cat issues. But this last one # 5 really disappointed me, and I'm seriously thinking of dropping it.
    The art work by Clay Mann is excellent and love the glossy paper too.
    I think it might be better to wait for the Trade and it should read better and in the end it'll be cheaper.
    I think that after 5 issues that I might be out.

  8. #8
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKryptonMan View Post
    I have seen some of King's Batman run in TP , and it looks good. Maybe he's just better at writing a Trade over single issues.
    I too wonder this about King. Ever since this medium became more arc/trade focused, and less single-issue focused, I've definitely noticed that some writers read much better in arcs/trades vs reading each single issue month after month.

    Scott Snyder can wow you in a single issue (despite that issue being in a long arc) while King and others seem less capable (if the issue is part of an arc). When King does aim for a single-issue (one-and-done) story, that's where he really, really shines. But I think he can get an unfair perception because his arcs (read full in trades) can be really good.

    Some writers seem to have different philosophies and aims when it comes to their approach to decompression within the issue-by-issue retail reader experience.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 06-10-2021 at 06:34 AM.
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  9. #9
    Mighty Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKryptonMan View Post
    I bought all of King's run of Batman and enjoyed it for the most part. Sometimes it was really good, and other times it didn't make sense. ,I know the plan was for him to do 100 issues which would have been really good. But it got derailed at DC , so it was cut to 85 issues , not counting Annuals . I didn't like him killing off Alfred ,but he did it.
    I've been getting all of Bat / Cat issues so far and the art is excellent , even love the paper that's printed on.
    I think that this storyline is not what King originally had in mind had he stayed on Batman.
    But after picking up #5 , I'm really thinking of just cutting my losses and dropping it.
    Maybe it will read better as a TP when it's all done. And at $4.99 an issue , he didn't really offer much in this issue.
    I have seen some of King's Batman run in TP , and it looks good. Maybe he's just better at writing a Trade over single issues.
    King was removed because sales had dipped far enough to the point where DC had enough. A "War of Jokes and Riddles" with no action. I think the no-go on the wedding really turned many readers off especially with all the special covers and what not for #50. He completely butchered Booster Gold and I don't really like Booster.
    Pulls: Batman, Detective Comics, Star Wars, Crossover, Commanders in Crisis, Something is Killing the Children, Flash, Nightwing, and Iron Man.
    My runs: Batman #230-, and Detective #438-.

  10. #10
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixSpeedSamurai View Post
    A "War of Jokes and Riddles" with no action. I think the no-go on the wedding really turned many readers off especially with all the special covers and what not for #50. He completely butchered Booster Gold and I don't really like Booster.
    Action is definitely not a strong point for King, I find it hard to argue with that. And the "wedding" (or rather non-wedding) was definitely mis-marketed by DC, but deliberately so (though perhaps at King's expense), so they could profit off of it, which they did.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 06-10-2021 at 11:58 AM.
    Thank you AMericA for votinG for chAnge in 2016.

  11. #11

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    I don't really talk with any other comic readers IRL these days, but I see very little chatter online about this book. Which on one hand is crazy, given it's a marquee Batman title written and drawn by a team that was given the keys to a Crisis event not too long ago. A team that, when this book was announced, created a lot of excitement because of their involvement. But on the other hand, it makes sense, given the glacial pace of not only the release schedule, but also (and more damningly) the story itself. The level of decompression is almost mind-blowing.

    But regardless, even if you enjoy having to wait 2 years for a story that should probably have already finished by now, I still find it difficult to care about what is (or isn't) happening in this book. It very clearly is just a part of King's personal continuity and not really at all attributable the Batman/Gotham mythos that DC has decided to move forward with (Tynion and co. have basically all but washed their hands of King's run by this point).

    I very much have disliked Selina's characterization through a sizable portion of the book. She comes off as psychopathic, cold, and is almost completely devoid of her usual charm. Though some of that can be blamed on Mann, being he draws Selina with such dead-looking eyes and blank expressions. King giving her some kind of close historic bond with the Joker is also really strange, and something I find it very difficult to remain open-minded about. It just doesn't make sense, and drags down her character for no reason other than to provide a narrative divide between her and Bruce. And while I seriously doubt there was any kind of romantic involvement there, it's honestly nearly bad enough that the story is written in a way that a sizable amount of readers have such a fear.

    And speaking of Bruce, it feels like he's barely in the story at all. He may share half title of the book, but he has so far been relegated to something of a background character, or there to simply act as a narrative device. The fact that he's headlining the comic's title is I know unavoidable from a business perspective, but it still is a very bad look in my opinion.

    And as for Andrea, she likewise has been a completely non-essential character. Though I hope, and expect, that will change in the coming issues.



    All in all, this is the title I most desperately want to enjoy, but I just don't.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    Action is definitely not a strong point for King, I find it hard to argue with that. And the "wedding" (or rather non-wedding) was definitely mis-marketed by DC, but deliberately so (though perhaps at King's expense), so they could profit off of it, which they did.
    I didn't know King had any strong suit when it came to writing Batman

  13. #13
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    I didn't know King had any strong suit when it came to writing Batman
    There was good and bad in his run IMHO. He can be a great Batman writer at times with Eisner-winning stories. But his sensibilities and preoccupations sometimes led him astray in the run too. He even said he had a mental breakdown during the run (apparently brought on by the lingering trauma of his CIA years in the Middle East), which may have contributed to the run's problems.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 06-11-2021 at 08:50 AM.
    Thank you AMericA for votinG for chAnge in 2016.

  14. #14
    Mighty Member marvelprince's Avatar
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    Bat/Cat was without a doubt the book I was most hyped about this year. I loved the relationship in Kings run, I hated the bait and switch and then cop out when it came to having Batman and Catwoman get hitched
    My hopes were that this mini would rectify that and give me what I believed King had planned, his opus on these two. Maybe it was just the reality of what this book is not lining up with what I expected in my head but I’m just not getting this series. It’s supposed to be Bat Cat but Batman’s barely in it. I don’t get Selina, I don’t understand why we needed more Joker, I don’t get why Harleys there. I don’t care about the future bits at all, I thought the current setting of an Alfred less Bruce trying to make things work with Selina was a great premise but instead King is going another direction. I don’t think it’s necessarily the writings fault per say as I admit my expectations were so high but as it is I don’t know what this story is supposed to be. And I want to love, it’s
    Fantastic to look at but it’s not even as poetic as I usually find Kings books which is weird.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    I too wonder this about King. Ever since this medium became more arc/trade focused, and less single-issue focused, I've definitely noticed that some writers read much better in arcs/trades vs reading each single issue month after month.

    Scott Snyder can wow you in a single issue (despite that issue being in a long arc) while King and others seem less capable (if the issue is part of an arc). When King does aim for a single-issue (one-and-done) story, that's where he really, really shines. But I think he can get an unfair perception because his arcs (read full in trades) can be really good.

    Some writers seem to have different philosophies and aims when it comes to their approach to decompression within the issue-by-issue retail reader experience.
    I think his Batman run made everyone aware of how dependent King’ storytelling is on a trade read, whether they like his writing choices or not. That’s going to negatively impact the week-to-week discussion. Add in King’s more controversial characterization choices, and you’ve turned people off as well.

    I think it’s comparable to how little buzz the Batman Earth One books get.
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