Question about the mother of Thor

[Triniking1234]

Hopefully the solo book writers still have the final say about changes and none of this stuff with Stark, Thor and Phoenix stick.

[Username taken]

Hopefully the solo book writers still have the final say about changes and none of this stuff with Stark, Thor and Phoenix stick.

The Stark one still grinds my gears.

Like..what has the change added to the character? Absolutely nothing.

It was change for change sake and should be retconned.

[king of hybrids]

At a guess, the retcon is to make Thor somewhat less-godly, since Aaron’s whole thing is that gods are inherently evil parasites

[Zelena]

At a guess, the retcon is to make Thor somewhat less-godly, since Aaron’s whole thing is that gods are inherently evil parasites

And the Phoenix Force that feeds on life force is less a parasite?

[Dreaded Porcupine]

At a guess, the retcon is to make Thor somewhat less-godly, since Aaron’s whole thing is that gods are inherently evil parasites

Aaron has made Thor less godly. He turned him into a jobber who used to speak nobly and getting beat up by D listers like Namor’s sea team. You could argue that there isn’t a bigger parasite than the Phoenix force. Aaron shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near Thor. His obvious bias against him shows.

[JudicatorPrime]

At a guess, the retcon is to make Thor somewhat less-godly, since Aaron’s whole thing is that gods are inherently evil parasites

Well, the Phoenix Force was/is worshipped by other advanced extraterrestrial civilizations, so that makes her a god as well. She also has parasitic attributes as her union can be detrimental to her hosts.

By the way, according to Marvel's mythos, the beings spawned from Chaos who became more generically known as Elder Gods were all in some way predatory, if not parasitic beings. Only Gaea avoided this by infusing the Earth with her life force, which in the effect makes Gaea a symbiotic entity.

[JudicatorPrime]

I don’t think it was necessary per se… But that gives me bad vibes. Like all Marvel characters must belong to a sort of club with close ties… It reeks exceptionalism, elitism. Marvels characters should be exceptional not just because of what they are, but also because of their lineage.

I like complexity and otherness. Thor doesn’t need to be the son of Phoenix to be a great hero.

I totally agree with this. In fact, I think Marvel should have kept Jörð as a distinct individual in the Norse pantheon. Eliminating her place is no way to treat someone's mother.

[JudicatorPrime]

While I agree with most things you said, why do I have a feeling you have something against Marvel's portrayal of Norse myths only (not only in this post but in other posts before as well)???

I mean, every fictional universe that uses irl mythologies have their own version of deities and their origin.

nothing against you but I'm just curious from where is this bite coming from.

or my feeling is wrong so I apologize.

No worries, I appreciate the candor. Hopefully, you question Marvel's choices and/or agenda the same way that you question mine. After all, they are a chief influencer of hearts, minds and pop culture. Me? Not so much. Like the Joker, "I just do things."

I honestly don't have anything against the Norse gods. Like I said, I love myths from every culture that I've yet explored. I'm fine with adaptations and colorful license.

But Marvel's particular adaptation bears several troublesome markers. Just as I don't quite understand why Thor had to be blond, I don't quite grasp why Odin is now the sire of angels and Hevn is merely another gnarled branch on the great Yggsdrasil. Why? Adaptations are one thing, but being culturally subsumed is something else entirely. Is it really necessary to marry Teutonic/Germanic gods to thinly veiled Christian themes? (And where else in the real world do we see that occur? Go ahead, take a goooood guess.)

What other pantheon gets this kind of treatment? What is the grand design here? And what is the message?

At the end of the day, I'd like to think that this is all innocuous fantasy fiction. But something about Marvel's treatment of Asgardians and their primacy in the Marvel universe triggers my Spider sense. Maybe it's nothing. But maybe it's not nothing. I think we have to question until we're absolutely certain one way or another.

[Panic]

No worries, I appreciate the candor. Hopefully, you question Marvel's choices and/or agenda the same way that you question mine. After all, they are a chief influencer of hearts, minds and pop culture. Me? Not so much. Like the Joker, "I just do things."

I honestly don't have anything against the Norse gods. Like I said, I love myths from every culture that I've yet explored. I'm fine with adaptations and colorful license.

But Marvel's particular adaptation bears several troublesome markers. Just as I don't quite understand why Thor had to be blond, I don't quite grasp why Odin is now the sire of angels and Hevn is merely another gnarled branch on the great Yggsdrasil. Why? Adaptations are one thing, but being culturally subsumed is something else entirely.

What other pantheon gets this kind of treatment? What is the grand design here? And what is the message?

At the end of the day, I'd like to think that this is all innocuous fantasy fiction. But something about Marvel's treatment of Asgardians and their primacy in the Marvel universe triggers my spider sense. Maybe it's nothing. But maybe it's not nothing. I think we have to question until we're absolutely certain one way or another.

We both see agendas, though we are both perceiving what they are very differently (or perhaps not, it's just who is being targeted and who is benefitting that we see differently?).

[JudicatorPrime]

We both see agendas, though we are both perceiving what they are very differently (or perhaps not, it's just who is being targeted and who is benefitting that we see differently?).

I really don't want to derail this thread, so I'll be brief. I'm fine with an agenda, so long as it is conducive to Marvel's readership becoming more willing to accept and embrace the "other." As it stands, all godly roads of import lead to Asgard. That's a problem. Adding the Phoenix Force to Thor's mythos is an unnecessary doubling down on that peculiar fictional reality.

[Username taken]

I really don't want to derail this thread, so I'll be brief. I'm fine with an agenda, so long as it is conducive to Marvel's readership becoming more willing to accept and embrace the "other." As it stands, all godly roads of import lead to Asgard. That's a problem. Adding the Phoenix Force to Thor's mythos is an unnecessary doubling down on that peculiar fictional reality.

You know, you've brought up some very interesting points that I never really thought about.

Marvel have really placed layers upon layers upon Norse mythology. More than any other pantheons in the Marvel universe.

I don't know if there is an agenda but it's a very interesting observation that's food for thought.

[GodThor]

No worries, I appreciate the candor. Hopefully, you question Marvel's choices and/or agenda the same way that you question mine. After all, they are a chief influencer of hearts, minds and pop culture. Me? Not so much. Like the Joker, "I just do things."

I honestly don't have anything against the Norse gods. Like I said, I love myths from every culture that I've yet explored. I'm fine with adaptations and colorful license.

But Marvel's particular adaptation bears several troublesome markers. Just as I don't quite understand why Thor had to be blond, I don't quite grasp why Odin is now the sire of angels and Hevn is merely another gnarled branch on the great Yggsdrasil. Why? Adaptations are one thing, but being culturally subsumed is something else entirely. Is it really necessary to marry Teutonic/Germanic gods to thinly veiled Christian themes? (And where else in the real world do we see that occur? Go ahead, take a goooood guess.)

What other pantheon gets this kind of treatment? What is the grand design here? And what is the message?

At the end of the day, I'd like to think that this is all innocuous fantasy fiction. But something about Marvel's treatment of Asgardians and their primacy in the Marvel universe triggers my Spider sense. Maybe it's nothing. But maybe it's not nothing. I think we have to question until we're absolutely certain one way or another.

thanks!!!

I think Aaron tied Heven to Asgard's mythology probably because they were the ones who messed up their myths irl (you know, they waged war against them back when vikings were a thing).

personally I never find them to be like Heaven from real life.

it just has that name based off of Heaven but that's pretty much it (like Hel for Hell).

trust me when I say most Thor fans around here don't like this Heven and Phoenix stuff.

if this happened during 60's or 70's then sure, it was early so you were building something.

now???

it's too forced.

EDIT: Bendis and Gaiman created Heven and Angela when they got the rights to do it so it's not all Aaron's fault.

[BooCoo]

It's not a bad approach, to be honest -- shaking things up wherever necessary. But this change should have been disallowed.

It is the second time that Thor benefited from having his mother upgraded.

In the myths, Thor is merely the son of a giantess named Jörð. In some passages, the name is Fjörgyn, Hlóðynn, Fold, and others, but the main point here is that she was an obscure Earth-aligned deity who was not particularly popular and therefore, not particularly powerful. And so, adjö, Jörð.

Marvel, of course, decided to conflate Jörð with the central Mother Earth personification -- and the most powerful -- in the Greek goddess, Gaea. Linking Thor to Gaea, the daughter of Chaos and ultimate mother of skyfathers, set Thor on a tier far beyond his original mythical origins. And far, far beyond the lineage of any other hero in the Marvel continuum. Naturally, we expect the marrying of the Earth (Gaea) and the Sky (Odin) to have this result, but apparently that wasn't good enough, either. Aντίο, Gaea.

The only way to improve on Odin-Gaea progeny is to make Thor the son of the Phoenix Force -- an entity that in the words of the Watcher was second only to the Creator in terms of power, standing and cosmic significance. And so they did. I suppose next we'll see Odin copulating with the nothingness that is Chaos -- which is not a female abstraction, but that's Marvel for you.

Why is it necessary for Thor to be the son of the PF? Why do any of this? It's almost as if they are positing that Thor's superiority is secured by lineage. Hmmm...where have I heard that disturbing worldview before???


Sidebar: The PF loves redheads. Now it all makes sense! When do we get Becky with the Good Hair, er, I mean Thor with the Red Hair back?

Jord aka Gaea is of the primal elder gods, (Chthon, Set, et al)and more powerful than Odin so its no 'upgrade' to go to a cosmic firebird. She basically birthed every earth pantheon, assuming the form of every belief. She has multiple guises and names as the mother goddess. She explained all this to Thor during the Celestial Saga. Just being cosmic isn't automatically superior.

To me the Phoenix is just an emotional entity that bonds to people. Lots of power but that's not unique.

[Cronus]

Jord aka Gaea is of the primal elder gods, (Chthon, Set, et al)and more powerful than Odin so its no 'upgrade' to go to a cosmic firebird. She basically birthed every earth pantheon, assuming the form of every belief. She has multiple guises and names as the mother goddess. She explained all this to Thor during the Celestial Saga. Just being cosmic isn't automatically superior.

To me the Phoenix is just an emotional entity that bonds to people. Lots of power but that's not unique.

It may depend on how writers see this, if the plan is to "upgrade" Thor (although...I doubt it if Aaron is in charge?). The Phoenix force is often associated with just that: power upgrades to a large degree. I do see exactly what you mean, Gaea in theory should be more powerful than Phoenix force? Trying to apply that in a tangible way might be difficult perhaps because many writers might go "power!" when they think of Gaea but definitely think "power!" when the Phoenix force is mentioned. Of course, still not sure what direction Aaron plans to take this in. I could see him maybe creating some drama, a story involving Gaea and Thor (and the Phoenix force) a'la Hera of old Greek myths (who was jealous of Heracles IIRC and created lots of problems for the guy...)? Dunno. As much as Aaron appears to hate Thor (Odinson), I'm not so sure he is in store for an upgrade.

I agree with Judicator Prime that the religious angle has been fleshed out enough. I mean how far can you take it? I recall an old issue of Thor where he fought a (Christian backed) knight who was committed to destroying Thor as the pagan god he was. It's just...bleh...at this point.

[JudicatorPrime]

Jord aka Gaea is of the primal elder gods, (Chthon, Set, et al)and more powerful than Odin so its no 'upgrade' to go to a cosmic firebird. She basically birthed every earth pantheon, assuming the form of every belief. She has multiple guises and names as the mother goddess. She explained all this to Thor during the Celestial Saga. Just being cosmic isn't automatically superior.

To me the Phoenix is just an emotional entity that bonds to people. Lots of power but that's not unique.

I disagree. The Phoenix Force is second only to The Creator according to the Watcher, who is the authority on such things. Jörð/Gaea while powerful in her own right as an Elder God in Marvel's mythos (which is heavily influenced by classical myths from around the world) does not rise to that level in terms of prominence or power. The Phoenix Force comprises all of the psionic energy that ever existed, or ever will exist. That includes those energies that course through Gaea's mind as well.

I get that some may not appreciate the PF for whatever reason, but there's no mistaking that the entity is a step up from Gaea. This development reflects that, or the writer would have simply left Thor's lineage unchanged. Hopefully, another writer happens along eventually to retcon the retcon. Jörð (Gaea's Norse personification) should be Thor's mother. It was perfect as originally framed. Not sure why they felt the need to change it.