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  1. #31
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Obviously. I don't think many peoplehere agree with the set up of this thread. Diana's gender has both helped her with DC editorial, but most of the complaints some people here have aren't a case of sexism.
    Sexism definitely leads to bad writing. And i don't see how WW's gfender helped her with editors. Her character and lore are treated like garbage most of the time.

  2. #32
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Let's put this this way if Diana was a man she would get less exposure than Shazam and Hawkman. The only reason why Wonder Woman survived the 50s was because she was a woman that could be put in a romance comic while technically being a superhero. Of course the Kanigher stories were regressive, but it might be better than being erased like all many other GA heroes, or turning into any of the other Justice Society members that disappeared and eventually were replaced.

    The only reason why Diana has never gone a year without her own book is because she is the only flagship female DC has. That's why she isn't in limbo like Hawkman, Martian Manhunter, Green Arrow, Aquaman.

  3. #33
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    To be clear, I'm not crapping on Diana, nor am I saying that she has been respected by DC. I'm saying that she just isn't enough of a success to warrant the limited but somewhat consistent exposure she has had.

  4. #34
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    Sure. What a coincidence. That a feminist and girl power icon. Gets depowered. Writen as a weaklink that heavily needs a sword and shield to do anything.
    Superman was depowered plenty of times too. I agree that reasons behind the sword and shield are sexist, but it's alao because DC doesn't understand the themes of WW like the use of the lasso. So it's not just about gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    That gets one or two shotted by supereman in comics and movies.
    Plenty of strong characters have been knocked out by Superman. That has nothing to do with gender. DC just disagrees with the notion that anyone on the Justice League should be as strong as Superman.

    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    That usually gets writen with the attitude of a bararian and they make her people men haters just because they are a soiciety of only women.
    That was a problem in the New 52 but it has stopped since rebirth (except for Jason I suppose).

  5. #35
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Lord have mercy.

    Faces depowering just like her peers.
    Uses weapons sometimes just like her peers.
    Gets jobbed just like her peers.
    Written out of character just like her peers.

    You also dodged the "female writers do it too" part.

    The Amazons were written as men-haters before DC thought about it.
    "Cable was right!"

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Let's put this this way if Diana was a man she would get less exposure than Shazam and Hawkman. The only reason why Wonder Woman survived the 50s was because she was a woman that could be put in a romance comic while technically being a superhero. Of course the Kanigher stories were regressive, but it might be better than being erased like all many other GA heroes, or turning into any of the other Justice Society members that disappeared and eventually were replaced.

    The only reason why Diana has never gone a year without her own book is because she is the only flagship female DC has. That's why she isn't in limbo like Hawkman, Martian Manhunter, Green Arrow, Aquaman.
    Or how about we don't just make up things without any basis? Flash and Green Lantern as obvious examples aren't in limbo as far as i know, and the only true similarity Wonder Woman shares with Hawkman, Martian Manhunter, Green Arrow or Aquaman is DC's bad habit of screwing them up, which had in Wonder Woman's past also blatantly a connection with her gender, and comes even in modern stories still sometimes through.

    Plenty of strong characters have been knocked out by Superman. That has nothing to do with gender. DC just disagrees with the notion that anyone on the Justice League should be as strong as Superman.
    Plenty of comic scenes with Martian Manhunter and Flash, and even some with Green Lantern say otherwise, and that happen to be all the other classical heavy hitters besides Superman and Wonder Woman in the most iconic constellation of the Justice League.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Lord have mercy.

    Faces depowering just like her peers.
    Uses weapons sometimes just like her peers.
    Gets jobbed just like her peers.
    Written out of character just like her peers.

    You also dodged the "female writers do it too" part.

    The Amazons were written as men-haters before DC thought about it.
    Wonder Woman had since Flashpoint a bigger phase of getting weakened with impressive scenes maybe once all few years now, losing obvious parts of her identity, and lacking purpose and understandable goals than all her peers, the only other somewhat big name you could compare with that is Shazam, and his case was more barely existing for big periods of that time. And why wouldn't female writers do it too, what is even the purpose of that question? And turning a subversion of the blatantly sexist old narrative of the Amazons back into that old narrative, is basically the textbook definition of sexism.

    I think the thread creator is overdramatic and draws a few odd connections, but ideas like that a female gender helped Wonder Woman in the 1950s of all time periods, or that female writers let alone the search for them automatically negate sexism are just silly.
    Last edited by Rightoya; 06-11-2021 at 01:30 PM.

  7. #37
    Spectacular Member Gitagon's Avatar
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    Some people's contributions to any posts about dissatisfaction with modern WW is trying to dismiss everything and just general whataboutism by pointing to other characters.

    It has become a habit that I just scroll some people's posts on here when it's about Wonder Woman cause I I already know what they will say with a tone full of dismissal.

  8. #38
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Semi sidebar but I don't get depowering heroes unless it's for an arc where the purpose is to highlight their non-combatative skills (like Clark as an investigative journalist).

    Where's the fun in writing a character and having to sandbag them the whole time. Forget any ulterior motives, I just don't see the appeal of turning Diana street level, for example.

    A lot of times it feels to me less like sexism per ce and more that the writer doesn't like or understand superpowers and is trying to mold the character to their strengths instead of the reverse.

  9. #39
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    Or how about we don't just make up things without any basis? Flash and Green Lantern as obvious examples aren't in limbo as far as i know
    They are both examples of being replaced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    The only true similarity Wonder Woman shares with Hawkman, Martian Manhunter, Green Arrow or Aquaman is DC's bad habit of screwing them up, which had in Wonder Woman's past also blatantly a connection with her gender, and comes even in modern stories still sometimes through.
    Wonder Woman can sell pretty well, no doubt. But she can also have pretty underwhelming sales, having been outpaced by many other solo books like Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Nightwing, etc. Yet DC has never and will never cancel her book until they have another solo female franchise that can replace her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    Plenty of comic scenes with Martian Manhunter and Flash, and even some with Green Lantern say otherwise, and that happen to be all the other classical heavy hitters besides Superman and Wonder Woman in the most iconic constellation of the Justice League.
    Yeah well I don't recall Wonder Woman being easily knocked out like OP claimed but Flash and Green Lantern are not on Superman's level. They each have unique strengths of their own, but they can't actually win a fight vs Superman. Martian Manhunter is usually the closest male in the team able to handle Superman, but he isn't as strong nor as invulnerable as a kryptonian. His advantage comes in terms of mental powers and shapeshifting / regeneration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    I think the thread creator is overdramatic and draws a few odd connections, but ideas like that a female gender helped Wonder Woman in the 1950s of all time periods.
    The 50s were a very sad time for Wonder Woman books from what I read, but unlike many other characters (like Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Hawkman) she survived. And the way she survived was by turning the book into sort of a Romance comic, which was a popular genre at the time. DC wouldn't have done that with any other characters except Superman via Lois Lane. Again, a sad state of affairs, but her being the flagship female superhero is why she was able to survive via this revamping of her genre.

  10. #40
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitagon View Post
    Some people's contributions to any posts about dissatisfaction with modern WW is trying to dismiss everything and just general whataboutism by pointing to other characters.

    It has become a habit that I just scroll some people's posts on here when it's about Wonder Woman cause I I already know what they will say with a tone full of dismissal.
    To be clear, I believe one of the arguments here is that many of the complaints OP brought up aren't a case of sexism.

    Good examples of how DC been sexist towards Wonder Woman is how they have tried to make her barbaric and added a sword and shield to most of her modern depictions. This is both a case of DC being insecure about female superheroes, as well as not believing in the themes of the WW franchise.

  11. #41
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitagon View Post
    Some people's contributions to any posts about dissatisfaction with modern WW is trying to dismiss everything and just general whataboutism by pointing to other characters.

    It has become a habit that I just scroll some people's posts on here when it's about Wonder Woman cause I I already know what they will say with a tone full of dismissal.
    To be clear, I believe one of the arguments here is that many of the complaints OP brought up aren't a case of sexism.

    Good examples of how DC has been sexist towards Wonder Woman is how they have tried to make her barbaric and added a sword and shield to most of her modern depictions. This is both a case of DC being insecure about female superheroes, as well as not believing in the themes of the WW franchise.

    I would also argue that they handled the entire Superman/ Wonder Woman romance was a good example of them disregarding her own independent franchise in order to create an "exciting" status quo for Superman (I myself never liked the relationship for either of them).

    Another example is how they choose to draw her like a fitness model
    whereas Superman is always drawn like a bodybuilder. I don't want either of them to look like bodybuilders, but it's a clear case of them believing that a buff Wonder Woman like how Otto Schmidt draws her, isn't "feminine enough" or beautiful enough.

  12. #42
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Lord have mercy.

    Faces depowering just like her peers.
    Uses weapons sometimes just like her peers.
    Gets jobbed just like her peers.
    Written out of character just like her peers.

    You also dodged the "female writers do it too" part.

    The Amazons were written as men-haters before DC thought about it.
    Yeah. Right. Superman. Manmhunter, Aquaman, Green Lantern etc have not had the type of decline in power that WW has had.

    Using weapons like a genericc warrior woman. While ignoring iconic gear that actually stet her apart from other characters.

    The original DC amazons were not men haters. So you saying look amazons have been men haters doesn't matter. Because in canon WW history. The amazons were not always like that. Not to mention the fact that they made the amazons rapists and haters. While the male amazon tribe from new 52 were portrayed as loving and forgiving. Sexism at its best.

    And i didn't dodge anything. There are female writers that can have certain prejudice when it comes to WW and her mythos. Women can be sexist without them knowing.

  13. #43
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    They are both examples of being replaced.


    Wonder Woman can sell pretty well, no doubt. But she can also have pretty underwhelming sales, having been outpaced by many other solo books like Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Nightwing, etc. Yet DC has never and will never cancel her book until they have another solo female franchise that can replace her.



    Yeah well I don't recall Wonder Woman being easily knocked out like OP claimed but Flash and Green Lantern are not on Superman's level. They each have unique strengths of their own, but they can't actually win a fight vs Superman. Martian Manhunter is usually the closest male in the team able to handle Superman, but he isn't as strong nor as invulnerable as a kryptonian. His advantage comes in terms of mental powers and shapeshifting / regeneration.


    The 50s were a very sad time for Wonder Woman books from what I read, but unlike many other characters (like Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Hawkman) she survived. And the way she survived was by turning the book into sort of a Romance comic, which was a popular genre at the time. DC wouldn't have done that with any other characters except Superman via Lois Lane. Again, a sad state of affairs, but her being the flagship female superhero is why she was able to survive via this revamping of her genre.
    Green Lantern, Flash and Manhunter are portrayed as more capable than WW when it comes to power compared to Superman. That to me is not a coincidence.

    DC already replaced her with harly queen. Who gets more push than WW ever did. If WW doesn't sell as much. It is because she never had the same chances of exposure and promotion. And that is partially due to sexism. Because harly is not the feminism figue that WW is. WW's themes of feminism, girl power, equality, transgression to the status quo are not what DC supports. So of course they give to harly a plataform they never gave to WW and probably never will. Sexism has always been the main reason why WW has never been able to reach higher grounds.

  14. #44
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post

    The original DC amazons were not men haters. So you saying look amazons have been men haters doesn't matter. Because in canon WW history. The amazons were not always like that. Not to mention the fact that they made the amazons rapists and haters. While the male amazon tribe from new 52 were portrayed as loving and forgiving. Sexism at its best.
    I thought the point of this thread was to talk about current sexist attitudes towards WW. The problem you mention about man hating amazons has been solved since 2016.
    Last edited by Alpha; 06-11-2021 at 03:43 PM.

  15. #45
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I thought the point of this thread as to talk about current sexist attitudes towards WW. The problem you mention about man hating amazons has been solved since 2016.
    See other appearances of the amazons post 2016.

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