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  1. #46
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    I think most are dead (Union Jacks, Whizzer, Miss America) and/or have a good explanation (such as Cap, Magneto, Master Man, Warrior Woman, Black Widow, Bucky, Thin Man, Jack Frost, Spitfire, Wolverine, Namor, Android Torch, Inhuman Toro).

    The one that sticks out to me is old Professor X, but he has died and then has had cloned bodies so I guess that problem is solved?

    Who else would be a problem with the dates?
    Incidentally, Whizzer and Miss America were mutants, and died after Cerebro's invention (in comics published in 1982 and 1974 respectively), so they now have a route back! If they ever want to use them again outside of flashbacks, they can just say they were revived on Krakoa.
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  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Incidentally, Whizzer and Miss America were mutants, and died after Cerebro's invention (in comics published in 1982 and 1974 respectively), so they now have a route back! If they ever want to use them again outside of flashbacks, they can just say they were revived on Krakoa.
    Really? I had not heard that! But it is good news if any writer wants to revive them.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  3. #48
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Well, I found that by accident when I looked them up on the Fandom wiki.

    The mutant concept didn't exist in the 1940s, so I assume they were retconned as mutants when used in Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver's old origin story. Makes sense that mutants would have kids that are also mutants, right? And of course Pietro has the same powers as Whizzer, so it made sense at the time.
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  4. #49
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Incidentally, Whizzer and Miss America were mutants, and died after Cerebro's invention (in comics published in 1982 and 1974 respectively), so they now have a route back! If they ever want to use them again outside of flashbacks, they can just say they were revived on Krakoa.
    Wasn't the mutant aspect a bit of a retcon to make Frank and Madeline relevant in the more or less "current" era? Timely hadn't conceived of either being genetically predisposed to superhuman abilities back when they were first created in the late 1940s.

    As much as I like both characters, it's probably best to leave them dead and buried. Marvel already has too many pass-their-time relics running around as it is.

  5. #50
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Well, I found that by accident when I looked them up on the Fandom wiki.

    The mutant concept didn't exist in the 1940s, so I assume they were retconned as mutants when used in Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver's old origin story. Makes sense that mutants would have kids that are also mutants, right? And of course Pietro has the same powers as Whizzer, so it made sense at the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Wasn't the mutant aspect a bit of a retcon to make Frank and Madeline relevant in the more or less "current" era? Timely hadn't conceived of either being genetically predisposed to superhuman abilities back when they were first created in the late 1940s.

    As much as I like both characters, it's probably best to leave them dead and buried. Marvel already has too many pass-their-time relics running around as it is.
    True, because a non-mutant Whizzer and Miss America could still have mutant children. That is how many of us saw it for years. Whizzer's cobra-mongoose venomization that gave Bob Frank his superspeed somehow caused the mutation in Pietro likewise giving him superspeed. Miss America's electrical-induced powers were passed onto Wanda in the form of Probability Hexes.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  6. #51
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    True, because a non-mutant Whizzer and Miss America could still have mutant children. That is how many of us saw it for years. Whizzer's cobra-mongoose venomization that gave Bob Frank his superspeed somehow caused the mutation in Pietro likewise giving him superspeed. Miss America's electrical-induced powers were passed onto Wanda in the form of Probability Hexes.
    Honestly, I'm not sure where Marvel stands now with its interpretation of mutants. It used to be that two normal humans could conceive a mutant child and said child could have any number of random powers. In fact, that was the beauty of the narrative. It would be like two highly racist individuals one day giving birth to a child that looked like a member of the ethnic group that they hated. Only, said kid would have superhuman powers, which would really feed into their irrational fear that mutantkind would one day replace them.

    But I'm guessing that's probably no longer the case??? Only mutants or other supers can give birth to other mutants. And there has to be a rhyme or reason for the type of powers the mutant child gets. If your parents have psychic powers, well, you get psychic powers. If your parents had a sonic scream, well, you get a sonic scream, too. So on and so forth.

    Can't say I much cared for this interpretation, if that is the case. But whatever. It sells books and movie tickets, so can't be too hard on Marvel, if they chose that route.
    Last edited by JudicatorPrime; 06-12-2021 at 03:50 PM.

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    I think what throws a monkey wrench in things is the birth of Franklin and Valeria. Now they both are getting to be as tall as their parents. So Reed and Sue became engaged in Fantastic Four #35, got married annual #3 then Franklin is born in annual #6. Marvel kept him at the age of 4 or 5 for a long time to keep everyone from aging to quickly. Valeria, the one that is now in existence, was born in Fantastic Four #54 volume 3. We won't even get into Sue's miscarriage in Byrne's run and how Valeria Von Doom fits in.

    These days it does seem like 15 years has to be the sliding time range but soon it will have to increase. The kids seem to be getting older at a faster rate or maybe Marvel just wants to make that one jump and leave them at their current age, whatever that may be, for now.
    I've also gotten the impression that ever since Hickman's Secret Wars, about that time-ish, the sliding timescale has been moving faster. used to be one year would pass in the MU for every 5, give or take, in the real world, but as you say, Franklin and Val have jumped up in age, and it feels like a lot of other characters are aging faster as well, like the Young Avengers are getting married and stuff. There were two largeish (8 months, i think it was?) time skips bookending Secret Wars, which contributed to this, but I feel like even after that things have been moving a bit faster, even though Marvel hasn't SAID anything officially. Maybe more like 1 to 3 rather than 1 to 5.


    But yeah, still roughly 15 years-ish since the FF.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Honestly, I'm not sure where Marvel stands now with its interpretation of mutants. It used to be that two normal humans could conceive a mutant child and said child could have any number of random powers. In fact, that was the beauty of the narrative. It would be like two highly racist individuals one day giving birth to a child that looked like a member of the ethnic group that they hated. Only, said kid would have superhuman powers, which would really feed into their irrational fear that mutantkind would one day replace them.

    But I'm guessing that's probably no longer the case??? Only mutants or other supers can give birth to other mutants. And there has to be a rhyme or reason for the type of powers the mutant child gets. If your parents have psychic powers, well, you get psychic powers. If your parents had a sonic scream, well, you get a sonic scream, too. So on and so forth.

    Can't say I much cared for this interpretation, if that is the case. But whatever. It sells books and movie tickets, so can't be too hard on Marvel, if they chose that route.
    Well, it can't be that ''normal people can't give birth to mutants'' because in that case, 90% of mutant's backstories would fall apart!

    The probability of two mutants, or other superpowered individuals, having a child who inherits their powers, or powers similar to theirs, can be high though. We've seen that with Cable and Rachel Summers inheriting psychic abilities from Jean Grey, Polaris inheriting Magneto's powers, Daken having Wolverine's powers etc.

    Then there's also the idea that the term 'mutant' applies to anyone born with powers, even if those powers were inherited from super-powered parents who were not mutants - with Franklin Richards being the biggest example of this. It makes sense that these 'mutants' have the same or similar powers to their parents (Franklin doesn't though).

  9. #54
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    To be a mutation, it has to be different, right? So Spider-Girl and Spiderling (Mayday and Annie Parker from MC2 and Renew Your Vows respectively), being spider powered like their father Spider-Man, aren't mutants, only mutates (didn't stop Annie from being invited to the Xavier School though!). Franklin's powers, though, are completely different from both his parents, so that is a mutation. An oddity is that Valeria apparently has no powers (she's a genius, but so is her father, so it's not a mutation) when with two superpowered parents she probably should.

    Jean isn't actually Cable's mother, by the way, though Jean did raise him. His real mom is Jean's clone, Madeleine Pryor.
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  10. #55
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Well, it can't be that ''normal people can't give birth to mutants'' because in that case, 90% of mutant's backstories would fall apart!

    The probability of two mutants, or other superpowered individuals, having a child who inherits their powers, or powers similar to theirs, can be high though. We've seen that with Cable and Rachel Summers inheriting psychic abilities from Jean Grey, Polaris inheriting Magneto's powers, Daken having Wolverine's powers etc.

    Then there's also the idea that the term 'mutant' applies to anyone born with powers, even if those powers were inherited from super-powered parents who were not mutants - with Franklin Richards being the biggest example of this. It makes sense that these 'mutants' have the same or similar powers to their parents (Franklin doesn't though).
    The idea that anyone born with powers automatically being a mutant contradicts the significant findings of Celestial experimentation, though. In short, at some point all of humanity will evolve to a point where everyone has superhuman abilities, whether they are born with the so-called "X-gene" or not. I think that's why the X-people went out of their way to classify mutants as a separate subspecies of hominini, Homo Superior. It ensures that even in the far distant future when everyone has powers, the anti-mutant narrative will still exist.

    Further, I can think of a scenario or two where a person can be born with powers and not be a mutant. Consider that the mythical gods have been breeding with human beings since the dawn of humanity. Genetics informs us that godly DNA must be in the greater gene pool at this point, just awaiting the right pair of humans to copulate. (In all likelihood, this has already occured...many of times.) When that happens, a child will be born with powers. I can't say whether or not they'll be recognized as gods or not, but they definitely won't be mutants.

    There's also the concept of humans having varying degrees of mystical aptitude at birth, but that's a discussion for another time. Still, a child born with magical powers wouldn't necessarily be a mutant.

    As for the type of mutant powers, I get it: Marvel creators took the seemingly easier logical path when it comes to mutant parents handing down their powers to their progeny. Nevertheless, environmental factors should play a much larger role in what powers a mutant manifested; a larger role than even parental biology. That's one of the central tenants of evolution. A species doesn't survive if it cannot adapt to its environment. If you trap Wolfsbane and her mate forever near the sun's corona, we better hope that their children are born with more than cute reddish-brown fur and canine senses, or her branch of the genetic tree goes kaput.

  11. #56
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    I think it is really 3 main modern periods. There have been other times when a few heroes might have been around at the same time, but when it comes to there being a lot around at once I think it is just 3.

    The WW2 era - With all the characters that popped up around that time I think that was the first time most people were aware of their being superpowered beings among them. I would say this is 30s through the late 40's.

    The Lost Generation era - This is the era between the WW2 heroes and the premiere of the FF. With the sliding time scale I would put it as 60's up until the late 70's maybe early 80's Almost every hero and villain of this era was killed stopping a huge Skrull Invasion.

    Modern Era - The coming of the FF, Hulk, Spider-Man, Avengers, and such. it is weird when you think about it but going by the sliding time scale and the 13-15 year window that means all the current heroes didn't start showing up until after the year 2000.


    You had other periods like the late 1880's and all the masked gunfighters like Two Gun Kid, Rawhide Kid, Phantom Rider, and such too.

  12. #57
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    The Lost Generation era - This is the era between the WW2 heroes and the premiere of the FF. With the sliding time scale I would put it as 60's up until the late 70's maybe early 80's Almost every hero and villain of this era was killed stopping a huge Skrull Invasion.
    Stern and Byrne made a valiant attempt in 2001 with First Line and the Lost Generation, but it really presents more questions than answers. It doesn't explain where Professor X was during this time. He was willing to take on an invasion by the alien Z'Nox, so it stands to reason that he wouldn't have been sidelined against the Skrulls a few years prior.

    Moreover, groups like Agents of Atlas and characters like the Blue Marvel, who was first published in 2008 and retconned into existence in the USA during the 1960s, pretty much reduce LG to a self-contained story arc that happened in one corner of the greater 616 time/space continuum. There's actually no mention of the events of the Lost Generation in the Blue Marvel series at all. I find that funny, because Blue Marvel also dealt with an alien invasion in his book. You'd think the President would reconsider forcing Adam into retirement, if the world had just been hit with not one, but two major alien invasions, both of which the government covered up in order to "protect" the general populace. It's also funny that Blue Marvel's history touches on the first arrival of Galactus and the FF's participation in that event, but to my knowledge, the First Line stories do not.

    Yeah, Marvel is probably better off not trying to establish a "modern" timeline for the current age of heroes. It's just going to be messy, until they come up with something creative -- like the occurrence of a cosmic scale event that affected Time and continues to do so.

  13. #58
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Sidebar: If Time is merely a persistent illusion, what would happen if you directed the Ultimate Nullifier at it?
    Last edited by JudicatorPrime; 06-13-2021 at 03:03 PM.

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