View Poll Results: Do You Like The Organic Webbing Idea?

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  • Yes: I think it’s a fine idea.

    21 42.00%
  • No: Never liked the idea.

    20 40.00%
  • I’m indifferent Towards The Idea.

    9 18.00%
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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post
    The AI, the tracers, all the webbing combinations, the Iron Spider, etc. All of those are things he should have created himself.
    I'd agree with the other stuff, but how would Spider-Man create the Iron Spider suit? Tony gave it to him in the comics too

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    I'm speaking about his engineering/chemistry "background" more specifically, and how Peter never seems to grow or utilize that side of his persona.
    Yeah, he could use his knowledge to create inventions which might actually help fellow working-class people, if that's such a major facet of Peter Parker's character

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    I'm thinking along the lines that he could use his engineering knowledge to either create fantastical inventions or just use his technical know-how to aid him in fighting criminals (disabling machines, repurposing robots, and so on).
    1) Peter has developed devices to fight against villains plenty of times. He developed a special device to neutralize Vulture's harness, he used his scientific knowhow to defeat the Juggernaut by directing the fight to a construction site and encasing him in concrete, and he tracked an isotope to develop a cure for Aunt May.

    2) As for repurposing robots, that feels a little left field to me and random. I don't know what's supposed to mean.

    And the billionaire direction wouldn't be far-fetched either. Why isn't Peter working with the Fantastic Four or Stark Industries? It just seems quite silly.
    The official Doylist reason is that Spider-Man is an independent superhero whose stories only incidentally ties into the Shared Universe, and that tying things too much with Fantastic Four or Iron Man runs the risk of making Spider-Man into a FF supporting character or IM-sidekick, which has absolutely no market and public interest.

    Watsonian explanations, i.e. in-story ones, what used to be called the Marvel No-Prize include:
    -- Peter wouldn't want to work with the FF or Stark Industries could be chalked down to wanting to own and preserve his patent and have exclusive control over his inventions and formulas. (Cue parallel to comics creators not having ownership over work for licensed companies).
    -- Peter has at various times worked with Fantastic Four and Iron Man, and for a variety of reasons it never panned out due to various issues Peter had with Iron Man and Reed Richards.

    If you want my personal explanation, i.e. how it makes sense to me: Spider-Man is a more realisitc character than Tony Stark and Reed Richards, he's meant to represent invention and scientific skill on a realistic level and not the imaginary and genre-fantasies of science-fiction and pulp adventure. In real life, it's not a given that someone gifted with scientific aptitude and genius would automatically become a billionaire. Most of the big tech billionaires (Jobs, Gates, Musk) for instance didn't actually invent or create the products they are most known for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    I'm speaking about his engineering/chemistry "background" more specifically, and how Peter never seems to grow or utilize that side of his persona.
    He has utilized it numerous times across his comics history.

  3. #138
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    I don't believe the Fantastic Four are "rich" rich like Tony Stark is. They have enough to not experience financial problems and to not have to sell their labor, but they can't exactly hire interns and other scientists the way that your usual 'big' employer can. I believe this has been entirely consistent since ASM#1 when Spider-Man tried getting a job from them and they more-or-less told him they don't have any money to pay him.

    As for why he isn't working for Tony Stark, I think there is this assumption (partly promoted by the MCU) that Peter and companies like Stark Industries just go hand in hand because they're all about science. In reality, Peter is the type of person to feel conflicted, perhaps even put off, by all the corporate politics and practices that would come with working there. A 616 Peter who works at Stark Industries would be similar to Spider-Man 2099, who works for a company he is always trying to sabotage because he doesn't agree with all of their practices. Peter himself barely got along with Iron Man at all during his New Avengers days - even prior to Civil War, the two constantly bickered and were at odds with each other. It's a status quo that would hurt Iron Man just as much as it would hurt Spider-Man, because you can't have Stark Industries be treated like Alchemax by the main character in your Spider-Man book while the CEO is off being a hero in his own book.

    Something like teaching or being a public-funded scientist is a much more fitting job for Peter because it's more fitting with his values.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 06-16-2021 at 12:49 PM.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I'd agree with the other stuff, but how would Spider-Man create the Iron Spider suit? Tony gave it to him in the comics too
    In the comics, they retconned it into being a shared project between Peter and Tony, and I think that works a lot better than Peter wearing Tony’s hand me downs.

    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    That's the problem I'm having with your definition.

    He was independent because he was anti-social. While some of it was because of bullying, he gave people reasons to not like him. The fact that he was an asshole disqualifies him from being considered mature.
    I certainly wouldn’t say he was an asshole. He was anti-social/not very socially skilled, and that led to situations in which he sometimes came off as an asshole. That doesn’t mean he always was one. I also don’t know how you could read the Lee/Ditko run and disagree that Peter was far more mature than any real life high school student is, considering how he juggled all his responsibilities and took care of Aunt May.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    I'm speaking about his engineering/chemistry "background" more specifically, and how Peter never seems to grow or utilize that side of his persona.
    Well, I think all those examples I gave were of Peter using his engineering/chemistry/STEM background in a variety of situations for a variety of reasons.
    "Anyone can win a fight when the odds are easy! It's when the going's tough - when there seems to be no chance - that's when it counts!" - Spider-Man

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    1) Peter has developed devices to fight against villains plenty of times. He developed a special device to neutralize Vulture's harness, he used his scientific knowhow to defeat the Juggernaut by directing the fight to a construction site and encasing him in concrete, and he tracked an isotope to develop a cure for Aunt May.

    2) As for repurposing robots, that feels a little left field to me and random. I don't know what's supposed to mean.



    The official Doylist reason is that Spider-Man is an independent superhero whose stories only incidentally ties into the Shared Universe, and that tying things too much with Fantastic Four or Iron Man runs the risk of making Spider-Man into a FF supporting character or IM-sidekick, which has absolutely no market and public interest.

    Watsonian explanations, i.e. in-story ones, what used to be called the Marvel No-Prize include:
    -- Peter wouldn't want to work with the FF or Stark Industries could be chalked down to wanting to own and preserve his patent and have exclusive control over his inventions and formulas. (Cue parallel to comics creators not having ownership over work for licensed companies).
    -- Peter has at various times worked with Fantastic Four and Iron Man, and for a variety of reasons it never panned out due to various issues Peter had with Iron Man and Reed Richards.

    If you want my personal explanation, i.e. how it makes sense to me: Spider-Man is a more realisitc character than Tony Stark and Reed Richards, he's meant to represent invention and scientific skill on a realistic level and not the imaginary and genre-fantasies of science-fiction and pulp adventure. In real life, it's not a given that someone gifted with scientific aptitude and genius would automatically become a billionaire. Most of the big tech billionaires (Jobs, Gates, Musk) for instance didn't actually invent or create the products they are most known for.



    He has utilized it numerous times across his comics history.
    My point has been that Peter Parker's engineering/chemistry genius is a redundant trait of Peter's. A few self-contained instances that quickly get discarded by editorial is hardly an effective utilization of what are clearly key parts of Peter's persona—one story Peter is an engineering and chemistry genius, and the next, he's a certified couch potato. If Marvel doesn't wish to be consistent or deal with that side of Peter's history, they might as well forego the webshooters and utilize the organic webbing. At the very least, if they want to keep Peter's chemistry and engineering traits while still adhering to his more "realistic" approach, they should decrease those abilities to a more believable, real-world level (the webshooters would have to go).

    I'm also amused with your comment regarding Peter being a "more realistic character than Tony Stark or Reed Richards", yet he's proven that his engineering/chemistry knowledge is on-par with such characters (Y'know—the quick-hardening goop he uses in a "shooting" device that discharges the goop into a thin string of ultra-hard "webbing"). Either go big or go home, as they say.
    Last edited by Citizen Kane; 06-16-2021 at 01:14 PM.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post


    Well, I think all those examples I gave were of Peter using his engineering/chemistry/STEM background in a variety of situations for a variety of reasons.
    In the context of your initial reply, which I provided below, you speak more about Peter's intelligence in a general sense. I felt I needed to clarify.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post
    I mean, this is just blatantly false. Peter’s intelligence is essential to tons of stories - the entire Parker Industries status quo (which you mentioned yourself) being one of many. There’s also the Horizon Labs era, the various eras he’s spent as a grad student, Tricorp Labs, etc. Even going all the way back to Stan Lee’s run, one of the major recurring themes is that Peter would face villains who outclassed him in sheer power, so he’d usually have to either outwit them in battle, or come up with a scientific solution to deposed/defeat them.

    If you’re discussing the lack of progress in Peter’s personal life, that’s a completely different matter and I do completely agree with you. I am absolutely tired of Peter progressing in one way or another, and then immediately getting shifted back to a broke, single, loser whenever the run ends.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    My point has been that Peter Parker's engineering/chemistry genius is a redundant trait of Peter's. A few self-contained instances that quickly get discarded by editorial is hardly an effective utilization of what are clearly key parts of Peter's persona—one story Peter is an engineering and chemistry genius, and the next, he's a certified couch potato.
    Can you think of one Spider-Man run where Peter hasn't consistently used his intelligence?

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post
    In the comics, they retconned it into being a shared project between Peter and Tony, and I think that works a lot better than Peter wearing Tony’s hand me downs.
    I guess I forgot that. That works well too, but I get the feeling Spider-fans seem to be antagonistic towards him working with anyone at all, as if that makes him wek.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post
    I certainly wouldn’t say he was an asshole. He was anti-social/not very socially skilled, and that led to situations in which he sometimes came off as an asshole. That doesn’t mean he always was one. I also don’t know how you could read the Lee/Ditko run and disagree that Peter was far more mature than any real life high school student is, considering how he juggled all his responsibilities and took care of Aunt May.



    Well, I think all those examples I gave were of Peter using his engineering/chemistry/STEM background in a variety of situations for a variety of reasons.
    I think what some are saying here is everything he does just goes into beating up crooks instead of thinking of other solutions. At least, that's what I'm understanding

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Can you think of one Spider-Man run where Peter hasn't consistently used his intelligence?
    What does this have to do with my post? I hadn't referred to Peter's intelligence once. But since you're asking, I hear Nick Spencer's run is up that alley.

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I don't believe the Fantastic Four are "rich" rich like Tony Stark is.
    Well that's something that varies per writer. The Four aren't as rich as Iron Man or Charles F. Xavier for that matter, but some have said that the Four earn a lot of money from patents, merchandise and so on. JMS' CIVIL WAR tie-ins had shown Reed Richards making money by selling hero-catching tech to the government (and offering an amazing defense by invoking an Uncle of his who refused to rat out to HUAC and concluding from the backlash he faced that, maybe he should have...Civil War-era Reed was a seriously weird dude).

    They have enough to not experience financial problems and to not have to sell their labor, but they can't exactly hire interns and other scientists the way that your usual 'big' employer can.
    Agreed. Also Reed likes to protect his inventions and avoid leaks (and interns in any organization have always been stoolies) so it makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    ... that Peter Parker's engineering/chemistry genius is a redundant trait of Peter's.
    First of all, in serial storytelling, there is nothing redundant. It's true that some writers have downplayed or ignored Peter's scientific chops in some stories...and good ones at that, but it's also true that other writers have re-emphasized and explored those ideas at the same time. It's not a given that everything about a character and his world will be emphasized the same way in all situations and all times. Sometimes people want to show different ways to beat up a bad guy you know.

    A few self-contained instances that quickly get discarded by editorial is hardly an effective utilization of what are clearly key parts of Peter's persona—one story Peter is an engineering and chemistry genius, and the next, he's a certified couch potato.
    Those aren't inaccurate claims but again that's an issue of serial storytelling rather than something being redundant. Writers have some leeway in terms of what aspects of a character to emphasize or de-emphasize. Peter for instance is working class but those aspects of the character have been fairly downplayed since OMD but that doesn't mean it's a redundant element by any means. Some writers aren't interested in romance even though romance has always been a major aspect of Spider-Man's stories over the decades. That doesn't mean it's redundant. And again, that's part of the frustrations of following a serialized character and story, and the option for you as a reader is basically find your own canon -- choose the Spider-Man runs that emphasize and clarify what you think is essential and fundamental and remain indifferent to the rest. Ultimately the stories that are best, the ones that have the most consensus behind it, which have the biggest influence, those stories and the version of the character they present will last over stuff that doesn't.

    I'm also amused with your comment regarding Peter being a "more realistic character than Tony Stark or Reed Richards", yet he's proven that his engineering/chemistry knowledge is on-par with such characters...
    In real life, scientific specialization is a thing. People who are brilliant physicists for instance would no more be able to do stuff in chemical engineering than any layman would next to a brilliant chemical engineer. Albert Einstein is the greatest physicist and scientist of the 20th Century, but he never invented anything. He never invented the technology that was developed as a result of his theories (like GPS, microchips, the Event Horizon Telescope). That doesn't diminish his accomplishment.

    So again, it's not a hard thing to buy or accept that Peter Parker could develop and innovate the web-fluid formula by himself that Reed or Tony couldn't do either.

    Either go big or go home, as they say.
    Do that all the time and it makes all stories and characters the same. The writer Terry Pratchett when talking about his DISCWORLD fantasy series, which has a shared universe setting filled with policemen, magic school, and other stuff...said that the problem of having too much shared continuity was that there was a risk that it turns into one bland genre offering without anything to distinguish each entry.

    Spider-Man is the story of a working-class guy using his knowhow and resources to solve problems and deal with issues that are universal and everyday. Fantastic Four and Iron Man are big idea adventures about people fighting and stopping powerful beings. They're not telling the same kind of story.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    What does this have to do with my post? I hadn't referred to Peter's intelligence once. But since you're asking, I hear Nick Spencer's run is up that alley.
    You "hear"...are you familiar with any Spider-Man runs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well that's something that varies per writer. The Four aren't as rich as Iron Man or Charles F. Xavier for that matter, but some have said that the Four earn a lot of money from patents, merchandise and so on. JMS' CIVIL WAR tie-ins had shown Reed Richards making money by selling hero-catching tech to the government (and offering an amazing defense by invoking an Uncle of his who refused to rat out to HUAC and concluding from the backlash he faced that, maybe he should have...Civil War-era Reed was a seriously weird dude).



    Agreed. Also Reed likes to protect his inventions and avoid leaks (and interns in any organization have always been stoolies) so it makes sense.



    First of all, in serial storytelling, there is nothing redundant. It's true that some writers have downplayed or ignored Peter's scientific chops in some stories...and good ones at that, but it's also true that other writers have re-emphasized and explored those ideas at the same time. It's not a given that everything about a character and his world will be emphasized the same way in all situations and all times. Sometimes people want to show different ways to beat up a bad guy you know.



    Those aren't inaccurate claims but again that's an issue of serial storytelling rather than something being redundant. Writers have some leeway in terms of what aspects of a character to emphasize or de-emphasize. Peter for instance is working class but those aspects of the character have been fairly downplayed since OMD but that doesn't mean it's a redundant element by any means. Some writers aren't interested in romance even though romance has always been a major aspect of Spider-Man's stories over the decades. That doesn't mean it's redundant. And again, that's part of the frustrations of following a serialized character and story, and the option for you as a reader is basically find your own canon -- choose the Spider-Man runs that emphasize and clarify what you think is essential and fundamental and remain indifferent to the rest. Ultimately the stories that are best, the ones that have the most consensus behind it, which have the biggest influence, those stories and the version of the character they present will last over stuff that doesn't.



    In real life, scientific specialization is a thing. People who are brilliant physicists for instance would no more be able to do stuff in chemical engineering than any layman would next to a brilliant chemical engineer. Albert Einstein is the greatest physicist and scientist of the 20th Century, but he never invented anything. He never invented the technology that was developed as a result of his theories (like GPS, microchips, the Event Horizon Telescope). That doesn't diminish his accomplishment.

    So again, it's not a hard thing to buy or accept that Peter Parker could develop and innovate the web-fluid formula by himself that Reed or Tony couldn't do either.



    Do that all the time and it makes all stories and characters the same. The writer Terry Pratchett when talking about his DISCWORLD fantasy series, which has a shared universe setting filled with policemen, magic school, and other stuff...said that the problem of having too much shared continuity was that there was a risk that it turns into one bland genre offering without anything to distinguish each entry.

    Spider-Man is the story of a working-class guy using his knowhow and resources to solve problems and deal with issues that are universal and everyday. Fantastic Four and Iron Man are big idea adventures about people fighting and stopping powerful beings. They're not telling the same kind of story.
    Your argument here is equal part red herring as it is a straw man. What freedom writers have with the character has absolutely nothing to do with the redundancy of the webshooters—same goes for mentions of Albert Einstein or suspension of disbelief. You can do better, and I haven't the time to argue pointless threads. I'll simply bring us back to the core of my argument: with the context I've already provided in previous posts, Peter Parker's webshooters are redundant. A good character should have congruent traits that define who they are, allowing the reader a level of comfort and understanding for what to expect from the rest of the story. Obviously, you can subvert those expectations, but we are not talking about clever writers here when we are discussing Spider-Man. So, in this case, Peter has put together a fantastical device that can do fantastical things using a fantastical material—The reader has been given an expectation of Spider-Man's capabilities right from issue #1. However, Marvel has yet to put in the time or effort to consistently keep such traits relevant to the story passed issue #1, and they have failed to even address Peter's unwillingness to use such knowledge more often. Thus, the webshooters and, by de facto, his super genius in engineering and chemistry are simply redundant traits. This just can't be disputed. And as I said before, isolated instances are not effective uses for these traits. This constantly leaves room for situations where a reader could say, "Why didn't Peter just make a miracle formula to turn the lizard back to human form? Or a formula to cure the Green Goblin's abilities? Or build his own Iron-Spider suit (If Tony Stark can do it in a cave with a box of scraps, I'm sure Peter can do it in his apartment in New York...or just ask Tony or Reed for workspace)?"

    Things can stay as is, and no one will bat an eye; but you can't sit here and effectively argue that the webshooters and, by de facto, his super genius in engineering and chemistry aren't redundant, especially when considering how Marvel has handled it so far. I guess couch bum Peter is more preferable to them, at this point.
    Last edited by Citizen Kane; 06-16-2021 at 06:05 PM.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    What does this have to do with my post? I hadn't referred to Peter's intelligence once. But since you're asking, I hear Nick Spencer's run is up that alley.
    You're asserting that Peter's display of intelligence is redundant (meaning not consistent) and that he is sometimes portrayed as a 'couch bum potato'. Please point out a run where this was consistently the case, and Nick Spencer's run isn't a good example (I have read most of it so far).

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    You're asserting that Peter's display of intelligence is redundant (meaning not consistent) and that he is sometimes portrayed as a 'couch bum potato'. Please point out a run where this was consistently the case, and Nick Spencer's run isn't a good example (I have read most of it so far).
    I haven't implied that at all. You're perfectly welcome to quote those particular "assertions" of mine, if you'd like. Otherwise, I think this is simply a case of you assuming things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    I'll simply bring us back to the core of my argument: with the context I've already provided in previous posts, Peter Parker's webshooters are redundant.
    Records get broken, jammed, and play the same tune over and over again too.

    A good character should have congruent traits that define who they are, allowing the reader a level of comfort and understanding for what to expect from the rest of the story.
    That's true for linear self-contained stories of the kind in theater and novels and short stories, but it's not the case with characters in a serial ongoing story. Admittedly there hasn't been a lot of theory defining serial characterization by narrative theorists.

    Unless you are talking about individual adaptations and examples, it feels that there's a context missing. My context is the 616 Comics which is the main source for Spider-Man stories in every adaptation and AU.

    Obviously, you can subvert those expectations, but we are not talking about clever writers here when we are discussing Spider-Man.
    What's that supposed to mean? If you're insinuating that Spider-Man writers are bad, then that's not true -- Gerry Conway, Roger Stern, Tom Defalco, David Michelinie, J. M. Dematteis, J. Michael Straczynski among others are very good storytellers and have done some of their strongest work on Spider-Man.

    This just can't be disputed.
    Famous last words, my dude.

    And as I said before, isolated instances are not effective uses for these traits. This constantly leaves room for situations where a reader could say, "Why didn't Peter just make a miracle formula to turn the lizard back to human form?
    [a]Biochemistry isn't his field, [b] He has helped Doctor Connors scientifically many times to cure himself, it never lasted long.

    Or build his own Iron-Spider suit
    He built his own suit as it is, it's perfectly fine and dandy thank you very much.

    (If Tony Stark can do it in a cave with a box of scraps,
    Said scraps being the high-maintenance tech from his own missiles and rockets, developed from a company built by his rich daddy, who also paid for his expensive education and tutors growing up. Not exactly replicable.

    This ultimately becomes a statement about class and the way class biases informs our judgment. Peter became Spider-Man at age 15 and decided to use it responsibly then. Reed and Tony learned the same lessons too. Except Reed learned it in his early 30s after a joyride turned his best friend into a rock golem and made the rest of his family freaks. Tony Stark at age 40 after being an arms dealer. The fact is that the reason we see Reed and Tony as scientists accomplished in their field is that both of them had the luxury of coming from stable family homes and a long adult civilian life of professional and personal accomplishment. Reed's an upper middle-class academic, Tony's a trust-fund kid. Peter was a working class orphan who had to develop his genius on his own independently.

    If we compare Reed and Tony after they become superheroes, you could ask the same questions. Reed Richards is famously useless after all, and Tony Stark is jealous and protective about keeping his technology from falling into the wrong hands. But because Reed and Tony had civilian careers, buttressed by being beneficiaries of the entitlements from their respective social classes, they get to appear as achievers whereas Peter was a superhero before he became a legal adult and never got to enjoy that once and despite doing a great deal is considered some loser. I mean it's basically the class struggle couched under fandom gripes.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 06-16-2021 at 06:40 PM.

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