View Poll Results: Do You Like The Organic Webbing Idea?

Voters
50. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes: I think it’s a fine idea.

    21 42.00%
  • No: Never liked the idea.

    20 40.00%
  • I’m indifferent Towards The Idea.

    9 18.00%
Page 6 of 12 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 171
  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    9,037

    Default

    That doesn't make me wish Cameron did it instead

    I also don't necessarily get why people don't want superheroes to receive help or assistance. Unless it's some type of CW-style thing. But otherwise, I think it's good to see people helping each other out.

  2. #77
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    28,261

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    All of the examples you listed are examples of telling and not showing, and telling never communicates anything to the viewer as much as showing does, especially in a medium like film or comic books. If anything, your examples prove that artificial webbing shows how smart Peter is better than organic webbing does.
    See my response to revolutionary jack.

    You say webshooters are not the only thing Peter has created or can create, and that is true, but keep in mind that 1) all of the intelligence feats Raimi's Peter displayed, he could have still displayed if he had webshooters
    Either way, organic web shooters are not taking away anything from Peter intelligence wise. Hell, ASM and MCU Spider-Man both invented their web shooters and we still get people complaining that they aren't smart enough.

    and 2) you're acting like the webshooters is 'one' invention when technically it is like 8 - there is different webbing like impact webbing and the insulated webbing and the dissolving webbing he used on Rhino's armor, while there's also several webbing gadgets Peter can make like in the Insomniac games - so if you get rid of the webshooters, you're technically getting rid of a bunch of inventions at once and not just one.
    If Peter is such a genius, he can and should show it in other ways besides web shooters and artificial webbing. This honestly makes him seem like a one trick pony.



    Articial webbing is the only reason that a working-class boy like Peter was able to move freely through the sky and look oligarchs like Green Goblin in the face, as said oligarchs fly around thinking they own the sky and that they're smarter than everyone.
    You're reading into a lot of symbolism that was very likely unintended. At most, this proves that web swinging is essential to Peter's mode of transport and his ability to fight the Green Goblin. It doesn't prove that mechanical web shooters are essential. Replace Spider-Man in this scenario with Daredevil, Nova and Darkhawk and you get the same effect.

    There's honestly not a lot of other well-known Spider characters. The symbiotes' organic webbing doesn't come from the human host's body so people won't be as grossed out by it. The other example is Spider-Man 2099, and Peter David treated his powers as more of a curse/monstrosity than Peter's.
    Silk has organic webbing and her powers aren't treated like a curse. Neither are Julia Carpenter's.


    In James Cameron's planned film (where the organic webbing from Raimi's film originated), Spider-Man's powers were going to be a metaphor for puberty. Cameron's Peter was supposedly embarrassed that the webs were coming out of him, and thought people would find it gross, so he made fake mechanical webshooters to make it look like the webbing was artificial.
    Good thing Cameron's Spider-Man never saw the light of day then.

  3. #78
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    28,261

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    That doesn't make me wish Cameron did it instead

    I also don't necessarily get why people don't want superheroes to receive help or assistance. Unless it's some type of CW-style thing. But otherwise, I think it's good to see people helping each other out.
    The way I see it, people only complain about superheroes needing help when they have an issue with the character who is helping the hero rather than the idea of the hero needing help. Steve Rogers was aided by no less than three people in his films but no one thinks of him as a lesser hero because of it. Insomniac's Spider-Man also required help from MJ, Yuri and Miles.

  4. #79
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    8,618

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Displaying an interest in science and discussing theories with scientists does show it as a facet of his character. It just isn't the only one. He's also taking physics classes in the second movie.
    In a genre-story, stuff has to be character-centric and plot-critical.

    You look at Amazing Fantasy #15. Peter being a science-nerd, means he's picked on by anti-intellectual American high school, means he's curious at the science exhibition and stays there longer and unattended (meaning that the spider can bite him, unseen by all), and then Peter is knowledgeable enough to quickly analyze and understand his own powers without some scientist guy at hand to tell it all to him, and then Peter creates his own web-shooters and web-fluid. So Peter being a science-nerd has a cohesiveness and logic. That allows Ditko to do stuff like have Spider-Man come up with a device to neutralize Vulture's harness.

    In the Raimi movies, Peter being into science is kind of superfluous. If he gets organic webbing, then him being into science is kind of some incidental detail. It has nothing to do with Spider-Man defeating either the Green Goblin or Doctor Octopus. On a character-level, it's important in the first movie to explain Norman's one-sided surrogate Dad fixation on Peter. But in the second film it's superfluous because Peter's friendship with Otto is tacked on and shoehorned in, it doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the film.

    In the second one he incapacitates Octavius by tricking him into stabbing a cable...
    That's basic video-game bullfight boss moves, and also boxing or wrestling.

    In the third movie, he defeats Venom by using his weakness to sound against him.
    A sudden Eureka flashback to something he remembered from when he wore the suit. These aren't a character thinking logically and defeating opponents. Again literally any other kind of hero can do the same thing.

    To be blunt, I don't understand this hang up people have about superheroes needing help as if these guys are super gods from heaven who would never require aid from mere mortals.
    Superheroes shouldn't need help for doing the actual stuff that audiences pay to see superheroes do. They have to fulfill some particular ideal.

  5. #80
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    815

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    See my response to revolutionary jack.
    All of those are still examples of telling and not showing. To the extent that they can qualify as examples of 'showing' Peter's intelligence, it's still nowhere near the amount of intelligence Peter usually shows in battle.

    Either way, organic web shooters are not taking away anything from Peter intelligence wise. Hell, ASM and MCU Spider-Man both invented their web shooters and we still get people complaining that they aren't smart enough.
    Same thing there, a lot of 'telling' and not as much 'showing', although there are many additional reasons people say that about MCU Spider-Man that I don't wanna get into here.

    If Peter is such a genius, he can and should show it in other ways besides web shooters and artificial webbing. This honestly makes him seem like a one trick pony.
    How does it make him a one-trick pony if my argument is that this 'one' invention is incredibly versatile and is technically more than one invention?

    Also, most real-life geniuses that get the chance to make something groundbreaking typically make only one or two inventions. By your standard, almost all the 'smart' people you can think of aren't really that smart and are one-trick ponies.

    It sounds like you get your idea of 'genius' from how corporate media presents guys like Elon Musk and not from how 'geniuses' really are.

    You're reading into a lot of symbolism that was very likely unintended. At most, this proves that web swinging is essential to Peter's mode of transport and his ability to fight the Green Goblin. It doesn't prove that mechanical web shooters are essential. Replace Spider-Man in this scenario with Daredevil, Nova and Darkhawk and you get the same effect.
    It wasn't unintended that Stan and Steve gave Spider-Man artificial webs to display his intelligence, or that guys like Norman and Stark were immediately impressed of him for that reason. These are all facts from the canon or from public interviews.

    Silk has organic webbing and her powers aren't treated like a curse. Neither are Julia Carpenter's.
    Comic book fans greatly overestimate how known Silk and Julia are. The only Spider-characters besides Peter to receive some mainstream appeal so far have been Miles, Spider-Gwen, and Miguel. Mayday is a distant fourth, and everyone else comes after that. Honestly, Spider-Ham is arguably more well-known than either Silk or Julia at this point. So of course less people will talk about their organic webbing because way less people talk about them period.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 06-12-2021 at 12:46 PM.

  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    9,037

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The way I see it, people only complain about superheroes needing help when they have an issue with the character who is helping the hero rather than the idea of the hero needing help. Steve Rogers was aided by no less than three people in his films but no one thinks of him as a lesser hero because of it. Insomniac's Spider-Man also required help from MJ, Yuri and Miles.
    I can see that to some extent. I think it depends on what the situation is as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Superheroes shouldn't need help for doing the actual stuff that audiences pay to see superheroes do. They have to fulfill some particular ideal.
    What ideal is that?

  7. #82
    BANNED
    Join Date
    May 2021
    Posts
    198

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The examples you bring up is precisely "told in various ways" and not shown. Characters talk and have Peter sounding smart but it doesn't become an aspect of the character's daily life, his way of processing things mentally, or shown as a facet of his character.



    The way Peter defeated his bad guys in Raimi movies, was either rope-a-dope (take a lot of beatings before getting an emotional Danny Elfman-accompanied power-up) or heart-to-heart his bad guys to righteousness. That doesn't indicate the character's resourcefulness or him out-thinking his foes.

    In the post-Raimi movies, he has a support team who helps him do the outsmarting and planning or strategizing stuff, which feels too cheap.
    That is just flat out false.
    Peter has no such team in any post Raimi film, I guess except maybe the Spider team in Spiderverse count, but no such thing in either ASM or the MCU movies.
    In Homecoming the only help get gets is from Ned, and Ned doesn't do more than track the phone that Peter planted in Vulture's car, or FFH the most help he gets from Happy is a ride back from the Netherlands, and place to whip up a new suit, and in ASM I don't quite remember Gwen doing much to help, besides maybe alerting him to Lizard's location near the end and I don't remember her doing anything in ASM 2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Either way, organic web shooters are not taking away anything from Peter intelligence wise. Hell, ASM and MCU Spider-Man both invented their web shooters and we still get people complaining that they aren't smart enough.
    Well in the ASM movies he didn't actually create the web fluid, he just stole it from Osborn.
    With MCU people apparently find Peter creating something that requires actual scientific knowledge and creativity to be not impressive because he didn't have the tailoring skills to sew up his own suit
    Last edited by Metro; 06-12-2021 at 01:32 PM.

  8. #83
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    8,618

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Metro View Post
    ...
    You know there are other posters on this thread, I don't appreciate having a creepy stalker.

  9. #84
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    9,037

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Metro View Post
    That is just flat out false.
    Peter has no such team in any post Raimi film, I guess except maybe the Spider team in Spiderverse count, but no such thing in either ASM or the MCU movies.
    In Homecoming the only help get gets is from Ned, and Ned doesn't do more than track the phone that Peter planted in Vulture's car, or FFH the most help he gets from Happy is a ride back from the Netherlands, and place to whip up a new suit, and in ASM I don't quite remember Gwen doing much to help, besides maybe alerting him to Lizard's location near the end and I don't remember her doing anything in ASM 2.

    Well in the ASM movies he didn't actually create the web fluid, he just stole it from Osborn.
    With MCU people apparently find Peter creating something that requires actual scientific knowledge and creativity to be not impressive because he didn't have the tailoring skills to sew up his own suit
    Yeah, technically he did more scientific stuff than the previous 2 versions

  10. #85
    MXAAGVNIEETRO IS RIGHT MyriVerse's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,079

    Default

    I hate it as much as I hated Stark's Extremis virus. These guys are supposed to be gadgeteer geniuses. I think Peter's better off with as few powers as possible. I'm even iffy about the wall-crawling. Wouldn't mind if that came from tech.

    But I'm fine someone other than Peter having the power. I don't think organic webbing is at all creepy... unless it comes from another place than wrists.
    f/k/a The Black Guardian
    COEXIST | NOEXIST
    ShadowcatMagikДаякѕтая Sto☈mDustMercury MonetRachelSage
    MagnetoNightcrawlerColossusRockslideBeastXavier

  11. #86
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    9,037

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MyriVerse View Post
    I hate it as much as I hated Stark's Extremis virus. These guys are supposed to be gadgeteer geniuses. I think Peter's better off with as few powers as possible. I'm even iffy about the wall-crawling. Wouldn't mind if that came from tech.

    But I'm fine someone other than Peter having the power. I don't think organic webbing is at all creepy... unless it comes from another place than wrists.
    what's wrong with him having wall crawling as a power?

  12. #87
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    69,192

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Metro View Post
    That is just flat out false.
    Peter has no such team in any post Raimi film, I guess except maybe the Spider team in Spiderverse count, but no such thing in either ASM or the MCU movies.
    In Homecoming the only help get gets is from Ned, and Ned doesn't do more than track the phone that Peter planted in Vulture's car, or FFH the most help he gets from Happy is a ride back from the Netherlands, and place to whip up a new suit, and in ASM I don't quite remember Gwen doing much to help, besides maybe alerting him to Lizard's location near the end and I don't remember her doing anything in ASM 2.
    Ganke also distracts Shocker if I remember right, but I think he got too much help from Gwen too. They were talking about her being the "smart one" in those movies.
    With MCU people apparently find Peter creating something that requires actual scientific knowledge and creativity to be not impressive because he didn't have the tailoring skills to sew up his own suit
    It would've been nice if he had done both.

  13. #88
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    9,037

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Ganke also distracts Shocker if I remember right, but I think he got too much help from Gwen too. They were talking about her being the "smart one" in those movies.

    It would've been nice if he had done both.
    I didn't really think those moments were that problematic. IMO it's better if the supporting characters can actually be useful. I don't think Peter is stupid just because others help him.

  14. #89
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    3,104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    All of those are still examples of telling and not showing. To the extent that they can qualify as examples of 'showing' Peter's intelligence, it's still nowhere near the amount of intelligence Peter usually shows in battle.
    "Intelligence in battle" is honestly meaningless since characters like Hulk and Goku can show the same thing. That's why it honestly doesn't count. It does help that most of the time it boils down to tricking the villain into hitting themselves which anyone can do (which is why I think Loki's intelligence is overstated, but I digress...).

  15. #90
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    69,192

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I didn't really think those moments were that problematic. IMO it's better if the supporting characters can actually be useful. I don't think Peter is stupid just because others help him.
    It depends, but I'm also someone who is big on self-sufficient Superheroes so...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •