Thoughts On Organic Webbing?

[marhawkman]

"Intelligence in battle" is honestly meaningless since characters like Hulk and Goku can show the same thing. That's why it honestly doesn't count. It does help that most of the time it boils down to tricking the villain into hitting themselves which anyone can do (which is why I think Loki's intelligence is overstated, but I digress...).

Yeah and using a gadget is a bit... low tier. "creatively" using a gadget isn't really inventive unless you're rebuilding it on the fly. And then toss in how Pete uses a LOT of different gadgets.

[Agent Z]

In a genre-story, stuff has to be character-centric and plot-critical.

You look at Amazing Fantasy #15. Peter being a science-nerd, means he's picked on by anti-intellectual American high school, means he's curious at the science exhibition and stays there longer and unattended (meaning that the spider can bite him, unseen by all), and then Peter is knowledgeable enough to quickly analyze and understand his own powers without some scientist guy at hand to tell it all to him, and then Peter creates his own web-shooters and web-fluid. So Peter being a science-nerd has a cohesiveness and logic. That allows Ditko to do stuff like have Spider-Man come up with a device to neutralize Vulture's harness.

All of these except the creation of web fluid happened in the Raimi films.

In the Raimi movies, Peter being into science is kind of superfluous. If he gets organic webbing, then him being into science is kind of some incidental detail. It has nothing to do with Spider-Man defeating either the Green Goblin or Doctor Octopus.

From Spider-Man 2

Peter: You once spoke to me about intelligence... you said it was a gift to be used for the greater good...

Doc Ock: A privilege...

Peter Parker: These things have turned you into something else... don't listen to THEM...

Doc Ock: It was my dream...

Peter Parker: Sometimes... to do what's right... we must be steady... and give up the things we desire the most... even our dreams.

This dialogue, which you dismiss as Peter having a heart-to-heart with Octavius, shows what science means to both characters and the importance of ethics when it comes to such (something a lot of comic book scientists often forget). Peter wins by appealing to Octavius's inner scientist, the person Peter admired and respected. That's a more interesting and nuanced depiction of what intelligence means for Peter's character than having spin super gadgets out of thin air.

But in the second film it's superfluous because Peter's friendship with Otto is tacked on and shoehorned in, it doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the film.

See above.

That's basic video-game bullfight boss moves, and also boxing or wrestling.

As if strategy and intelligence aren't vital to beating video game bosses, let alone wrestling and boxing.

A sudden Eureka flashback to something he remembered from when he wore the suit. These aren't a character thinking logically and defeating opponents. Again literally any other kind of hero can do the same thing.

Seeing as how the symbiote is a Spider-Man exclusive enemy and there are plenty of heroes who are pretty dim, no.

Superheroes shouldn't need help for doing the actual stuff that audiences pay to see superheroes do. They have to fulfill some particular ideal.

I must have missed the part where Gwen beat up the Lizard or the Vulture got knocked out by Ned and Aunt May. Considering this is a particular hang up you alone seem to have, I'd say most audiences are perfectly fine spending their money on a Spider-Man who needs a bit of help every now and then. It's fine if you don't care for it but don't presume to speak for everyone else.

[Agent Z]

All of those are still examples of telling and not showing.

"Telling and not showing" would be people talking about smart Peter is instead of him showing it.

How does it make him a one-trick pony if my argument is that this 'one' invention is incredibly versatile and is technically more than one invention?

Because at the end of the day, it's still one invention that people get hung up on for not appearing in the films (and even when it does appear, it still somehow isn't enough for them).

Peter's invented Spider-Tracers and a metallic suit to fight the New Enforcers. These are just as if not more impressive than the web shooters yet no one complains about them not being present in the films.

Also, most real-life geniuses that get the chance to make something groundbreaking typically make only one or two inventions. By your standard, almost all the 'smart' people you can think of aren't really that smart and are one-trick ponies.

With the way you guys talk about Peter, I expect him to be a lot more versatile than that.

It sounds like you get your idea of 'genius' from how corporate media presents guys like Elon Musk and not from how 'geniuses' really are.

Let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum shall we? I don't care for Elon Musk one way or another.

It wasn't unintended that Stan and Steve gave Spider-Man artificial webs to display his intelligence, or that guys like Norman and Stark were immediately impressed of him for that reason. These are all facts from the canon or from public interviews.

They also had him invent other things as well and had him show off his intelligence in other way.

Comic book fans greatly overestimate how known Silk and Julia are.

Spider-Man 2099 isn't that well known either but you still used him as an example. Either way, this is a nonsensical reason to complain about Peter having organic webbing since most people accepted it when the Raimi films came out. This hang up over him not having mechanical web shooters is entirely an issue with comic book fans.

[Somecrazyaussie]

I dunno, I always felt that the number of web fluid canisters Pete had was the least important plot device in Spider-man stories.

Organic webs work fine. But having the mechanical ones serves a dramatic purpose. It may not be high on the totem pole, but it adds more wrinkles for writers.

Drama, drama, drama.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Do all Spider-threads devolve into this?

Only when Jack gets his back up. Venture over to the "what if? Green Goblin was a nobody" thread. That one got lively.

[CosmiComic]

It depends, but I'm also someone who is big on self-sufficient Superheroes so...

Self-sufficiency is good, but cooperation isn't a weakness. And I sometimes feel some fans think he's above working with other people, when I don't see why.

Organic webs work fine. But having the mechanical ones serves a dramatic purpose. It may not be high on the totem pole, but it adds more wrinkles for writers.

Drama, drama, drama.

How often is it actually part of the drama though?

Only when Jack gets his back up. Venture over to the "what if? Green Goblin was a nobody" thread. That one got lively.

I've crossed over there a bit. Seems to be the same business

[Frontier]

Self-sufficiency is good, but cooperation isn't a weakness. And I sometimes feel some fans think he's above working with other people, when I don't see why.

I'm not saying it is, but more often than not that "cooperation" tends to make the hero seem less capable at dealing with threats than they should be just to justify having other characters around.

How often is it actually part of the drama though?

When they run out or get broken.

[PCN24454]

I'm not saying it is, but more often than not that "cooperation" tends to make the hero seem less capable at dealing with threats than they should be just to justify having other characters around.

Just know this. I'm gonna use this as my justification for why all of the Marvel Heroes should be in separate universes.

[CosmiComic]

I'm not saying it is, but more often than not that "cooperation" tends to make the hero seem less capable at dealing with threats than they should be just to justify having other characters around.

Or it could mean the threat is pretty big.

When they run out or get broken.

Ok

Just know this. I'm gonna use this as my justification for why all of the Marvel Heroes should be in separate universes.

I think that's a terrible idea, no offense

[PCN24454]

I think that's a terrible idea, no offense

I expected this kind of reply, so I'm not mad.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

"Telling and not showing" would be people talking about smart Peter is instead of him showing it.

Peter simply taking a physics class or having scientific discussions also counts as telling, not showing.

You're also ignoring the point I brought up on multiple occasions already, which is that Peter can still do all the examples you mentioned without organic webbing. It's not an either/or between webshooters and science talks the way you seem to be implying that it is.

Because at the end of the day, it's still one invention that people get hung up on for not appearing in the films (and even when it does appear, it still somehow isn't enough for them).

Peter's invented Spider-Tracers and a metallic suit to fight the New Enforcers. These are just as if not more impressive than the web shooters yet no one complains about them not being present in the films.

It's the invention he is most well-known for and the one he consistently uses the most. People will get "hung up" on it the same way they will get hung up on Tony Stark's armor, and for obvious reasons.

With the way you guys talk about Peter, I expect him to be a lot more versatile than that.

I don't know of anyone here who has talked of Peter as some sort of supergenius. The most anyone has said is that he is really smart/intelligent and a genius, but that doesn't mean what you're implying it might mean.

Let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum shall we? I don't care for Elon Musk one way or another.

I apologize if that came off as an insult, that wasn't my intent. I'm just pointing out how the media portrays geniuses as supergods whose brains just "naturally" produce better ideas than that of ordinary people all the time, when that is very often not the case.

They also had him invent other things as well and had him show off his intelligence in other way.

Which he can still invent if he makes the webshooters. The more examples we have of Peter's intelligence, the merrier, right?

Spider-Man 2099 isn't that well known either but you still used him as an example. Either way, this is a nonsensical reason to complain about Peter having organic webbing since most people accepted it when the Raimi films came out. This hang up over him not having mechanical web shooters is entirely an issue with comic book fans.

Spider-Man 2099 is one of the most hyped Spider-characters for the ITSV sequel, generated a lot of buzz in the first film (partly due to them casting Oscar Isaac), has been in several video games and almost got his own TV series at one point back in the 1990s. He was also the breakout character of Marvel's 2099 series. I would say he is definitely more known than Silk and Julia, especially now.

As for the fact that most people accepted it back when the Raimi films came out, I think that's a lot like the idea that Batman's bulky armor in the Nolan films is acceptable because most people didn't complain. My answer to that has always been "The general audience has never been asked for their opinion, nor have they been provided with an alternative at the time." I think the same applies to organic webbing.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

My answer to that has always been "The general audience has never been asked for their opinion, nor have they been provided with an alternative at the time."

Great point.

Organic webbing makes sense if you are making one and only Spider-Man film and no other. But it doesn't do that all the time.

[CosmiComic]

I expected this kind of reply, so I'm not mad.

Ok. I don't want to bother anybody. I just like having characters interact with one another

Great point.

Organic webbing makes sense if you are making one and only Spider-Man film and no other. But it doesn't do that all the time.

I'm not pro-OW but I don't really follow what you're saying here

[Frontier]

Or it could mean the threat is pretty big.

I think the problem is when it isn't, so it feels like the hero needs help defeating a villain they usually deal with on their own.

[CosmiComic]

I think the problem is when it isn't, so it feels like the hero needs help defeating a villain they usually deal with on their own.

I can understand that kind of situation being a problem when it's inconsistent with previous portayals