Thoughts On Organic Webbing?

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Isn't there anything else which would communicate Peter's genius?

Isn't there anything else that can communicate Hal Jordan's imagination besides the Green Lantern ring?

Why pick on the webshooters specifically?

Peter not creating his own web-shooters and web-fluid, and also his own costume, makes the character less resourceful and likewise it leads to plots where the fight with the villains become these slugfests bailed out by spider-sense and/or heart-to-heart stuff. You look at Raimi's Spider-Man movies, Peter defeats Goblin by means of Spider-Sense, in the case of Doctor Octopus in Spider-Man 2, he has a heart-to-heart with Otto. In Spider-Man 3, heart-to-heart with Sandman, bailed out by Harry (also Heart-to-Heart'd to good) and then finally a Spider-Sense insight allows him to twig that noise breaks up the Symbiote.

This is another reason I don't think the organic webbing works as well in a serialized format. Peter learning to use his organic webbing in a variety of different ways as if they were webshooters feels more like something you would expect in stories with a heart-to-heart element in them (i.e. Kung Fu movies). I don't think it would fit the tone of Spider-Man, at least not consistently.

Also, by "streamlined" I meant that something has to be thematically streamlined and not just streamlined in terms of plot elements. I think the webshooters are in a way more thematically streamlined than organics. Imagine writing an essay and being like "Spider-Man and Green Goblin are similar cuz they're superhumans that make their own gadgets... Well, Spider-Man actually only makes his gadgets sometimes, cuz he has organic webbing, but the intelligence is still there".

[Speed Force League Unlimited]

Isn't there anything else which would communicate Peter's genius?

"Peter was right, I miscalculated" ~! Octavius from Spider-Man 2.

Yeah, there are other ways to express his intellectual prowess like the spider tracer and taking down Radioactive Man by tossing him in coal. When it comes to web shooters and formula it's not just that he made the gizmos while adjusting them for multiple variations and functions, he adjusted the wrist bands themselves a few times not just the web formula, but the times he run out of webbing is part of what shows his quick thinking.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

This is another reason I don't think the organic webbing works as well in a serialized format. Peter learning to use his organic webbing in a variety of different ways as if they were webshooters feels more like something you would expect in stories with a heart-to-heart element in them (i.e. Kung Fu movies). I don't think it would fit the tone of Spider-Man, at least not consistently.

Also, by "streamlined" I meant that something has to be thematically streamlined and not just streamlined in terms of plot elements. I think the webshooters are in a way more thematically streamlined than organics. Imagine writing an essay and being like "Spider-Man and Green Goblin are similar cuz they're superhumans that make their own gadgets... Well, Spider-Man actually only makes his gadgets sometimes, cuz he has organic webbing, but the intelligence is still there".

Agreed...your points are valid.

For me streamlining is associated with stuff like Ultimate Marvel and the old paradigm that superhero stories when adapted to the big screen need to be as simplistic and as-few-words as possible. That paradigm was operational until the MCU arrived, leading to stuff like Ra's Al Ghul being a title and not an immortal dipped into Lazarus Pits in the Nolan movies, and it's also the reasoning that led to organic webs. That paradigm is not in effect anymore mostly because the more the movies embrace serialization the more they realize how such decisions close off stories and shape and mis-shape characters.

And your point is quite right that Spider-Man not creating his own tech and gadgets leads to a thematic dryness between him and his villains.

[CosmiComic]

Isn't there anything else that can communicate Hal Jordan's imagination besides the Green Lantern ring?

Why pick on the webshooters specifically?



This is another reason I don't think the organic webbing works as well in a serialized format. Peter learning to use his organic webbing in a variety of different ways as if they were webshooters feels more like something you would expect in stories with a heart-to-heart element in them (i.e. Kung Fu movies). I don't think it would fit the tone of Spider-Man, at least not consistently.

Also, by "streamlined" I meant that something has to be thematically streamlined and not just streamlined in terms of plot elements. I think the webshooters are in a way more thematically streamlined than organics. Imagine writing an essay and being like "Spider-Man and Green Goblin are similar cuz they're superhumans that make their own gadgets... Well, Spider-Man actually only makes his gadgets sometimes, cuz he has organic webbing, but the intelligence is still there".

How exactly am I picking on webshooters? I thought that was the whole premise of this thread.

And when have Spider-Man and Green Goblin been compared because they make gadgets?

"Peter was right, I miscalculated" ~! Octavius from Spider-Man 2.

Yeah, there are other ways to express his intellectual prowess like the spider tracer and taking down Radioactive Man by tossing him in coal. When it comes to web shooters and formula it's not just that he made the gizmos while adjusting them for multiple variations and functions, he adjusted the wrist bands themselves a few times not just the web formula, but the times he run out of webbing is part of what shows his quick thinking.

Ok

[Celgress]

OP Question -

I selected "I’m indifferent Towards The Idea." I honestly don't care one way or the other. The idea (like most others) can be interesting if implemented correctly, but it is far from essential.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

How exactly am I picking on webshooters? I thought that was the whole premise of this thread.

I'm just saying that that logic can be applied to almost anything. I'm sure someone can think of other ways of communicating Peter's intelligence to make up for that, but why go through all that extra work in the first place if it's not necessary?

And when have Spider-Man and Green Goblin been compared because they make gadgets?

I hear it all the time. People bring it up as one of the many ways that Green Goblin is a dark mirror of Spider-Man.

[PCN24454]

Isn't there anything else which would communicate Peter's genius?

Him having a consistent job in science.

[Frontier]

I hear it all the time. People bring it up as one of the many ways that Green Goblin is a dark mirror of Spider-Man.

Well, that and various other things that make them an effective kind of parallel as hero/archenemy.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Well, that and various other things that make them an effective kind of parallel as hero/archenemy.

I said it was one of the many things, not that it was the only thing.

[Frontier]

How many Spiders have organic webbing?

Silk, Miguel, Gwen needs her Symbiote, and Anya I think?

I said it was one of the many things, not that it was the only thing.

I know, just adding in my two cents .

[CosmiComic]

I'm just saying that that logic can be applied to almost anything. I'm sure someone can think of other ways of communicating Peter's intelligence to make up for that, but why go through all that extra work in the first place if it's not necessary?

Perhaps to show his intellect is varied

I hear it all the time. People bring it up as one of the many ways that Green Goblin is a dark mirror of Spider-Man.

Ok. I've never heard that one

Him having a consistent job in science.

That's possible

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Perhaps to show his intellect is varied

Honestly, most writers are already doing that. I wouldn't say most Spider-Man stories rely solely on webshooters to display his intelligence. A lot of the alternatives to webshooters being brought up (using the environment to your advantage, curing the Lizard, having a job as a scientist, etc.) are stuff that 616 Spider-Man already does or has done before.

[CosmiComic]

Honestly, most writers are already doing that. I wouldn't say most Spider-Man stories rely solely on webshooters to display his intelligence. A lot of the alternatives to webshooters being brought up (using the environment to your advantage, curing the Lizard, having a job as a scientist, etc.) are stuff that 616 Spider-Man already does or has done before.

Ok. My point is just that he's still a smart person even without inventing his own webs.

[Frontier]

Ok. My point is just that he's still a smart person even without inventing his own webs.

Yeah, but it's part of showing off his creativity and resourcefulness.

[Agent Z]

Other characters calling Peter a genius would do it. It's generally speaking not good storytelling of course, but yeah it communicates stuff. We are told in the MCU movies that Peter is smart and intelligent but we don't actually see any of that in action because producers like bug-eyed Tom Holland 'fraidy cat close-ups too much.

Storytelling isn't just about communication. It's about form, style, presentation. In a superhero comic, all the stuff like gadgets, costume, and so on, which isn't elaborated upon, is a form of storytelling.



There's this assumption that "streamlining" something is an ideal thing but it's worth questioning. Is something being "streamlined":
[a] inherently a good thing?
[b] inherently necessary?
[c] is there a cost to it? A trade-off?

Peter not creating his own web-shooters and web-fluid, and also his own costume, makes the character less resourceful and likewise it leads to plots where the fight with the villains become these slugfests bailed out by spider-sense and/or heart-to-heart stuff. You look at Raimi's Spider-Man movies, Peter defeats Goblin by means of Spider-Sense, in the case of Doctor Octopus in Spider-Man 2, he has a heart-to-heart with Otto. In Spider-Man 3, heart-to-heart with Sandman, bailed out by Harry (also Heart-to-Heart'd to good) and then finally a Spider-Sense insight allows him to twig that noise breaks up the Symbiote.

I am not saying that's good or bad, I am just saying that in the Raimi movies, Spider-Man never defeats his opponents by outsmarting them or tricking them. (The Post-Raimi movies usually have Peter have a support crew, Garfield has Emma Gwen, the Holland movies has him inherit Iron Man's supporting cast and Miles Morales' supporting cast). And you can trace that back to the decision to dial down the obvious sign of Peter's scientific smarts by giving him organic webbing in the first movie, and then having him swipe Osborn tech in the Garfield movies, and have Tony Stark create the classic Spider-Man costume and web-shooters in the MCU movies.

Streamlining stuff to make stuff more comprehensible or simpler in adaptation terms can be a good thing so long as you do it in a way that doesn't close off further stories or possibilities down the line. Streamline too much and you end up with the wretched mess that was Ultimate Marvel where everything was tied to SHIELD and Ultimate Nick Fury at the expense of the characters that readers paid to follow and are emotionally invested in, and that meant that villains were all connected to Osborn, to Ock, to SHIELD and so on, and that makes the world feel far smaller and less unpredictable.. In the case of MCU, they streamlined stuff to make Spider-Man into an Iron-Man subfranchise, and the result is MCU Spider-Man feels like he's a subfranchise to a character vastly inferior in every respect to him and you have a version of Spider-Man who doesn't feel like he can tie his own shoelaces.

If anything this entire post shows that the web shooters alone do not prove Peter's intelligence.