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  1. #16
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    It’s weird, but my immediate thought as someone who came in on the Post-Crisis Superman was to recall how much of that universe, and those before *and* after it, would always get shucked to the side and completely forgotten.

    I think that, as much as anything, shows where DC tends to screw up with Superman - anytime someone grows dissatisfied with the current status quo, they inevitably end up tossing out everything.

    Pre-Crisis got thrown out for Post-Crisis, Post-Crisis got thrown out for the attempt to do Birthright, Birthright got thrown out to do the Geoff Johns Silver Age redux, then the Silver Age redux got thrown out to try having JMS do Grounded, then that got thrown out for the first part fo the New 52, which got burned to the ground for Truth, before that got burned to the ground for Rebirth…

    Each of those had some moments, characters, or plot points people could learn to like before they got rejected for the next iteration.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    DC has destroyed the legacy of superman, not in vain is he the most hated fictional character of all time. But the worst thing is that he has intentionally destroyed that legacy. superman has gone from being the greatest hero of dc, to being a top 3 of his villains, lex and the joker are the greatest villains in comics, but superman is indisputably the greatest of video games and has been very close to be the best in movies.
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, DC wants Superman as a villain and little by little they are taking steps down that path.
    1: the public is used to the idea of ​​a superman villain, today no one is surprised to see superman as a villain.
    2: Make Batman (not a villainous Superman story, it's a Batman taking on a villain story) face him every time.
    3: create another character (Jon) to take the place as hero.
    In 10 years superman will be the new villain dc.
    I've heard people who love the video game say that it only works because it is a "side" version of Superman that would never work if it was declared to be the main version.

    I don't know of anybody in real life who thinks of Superman as a villain other than, "Oh, you mean that video game?" I've even heard people excuse what he does on the grounds that it makes sense given what happened to him.

    Of course, most of my age group are not video game enthusiasts anyway.

    You said Superman has come close to being the best villain in the movies. Is that a reference to MoS, B v S and JL? Because I can't imagine anybody watching those and hating a non-traditional take so much they could perceive the intent of those movies as making him the villain. In MoS, he is the troubled hero in a realistic world. In B v S, they could not go further in making it clear that Batman is off his rocker and persecuting someone who is not guilty of what Batman claims he is. JL is just Superman being freaked out at first and then becoming the big hero of the story.

    These are NOT my favorite renditions of Superman. But they are trying to make him a hero people care about in our world instead of something from the past that a lot of people find unbelievable. That's no different than Batman becoming unstable or Hal Jordan becoming Paralax. Thy're not trying to destroy Superman. They're trying to keep him relevant. But I can see where, from the perspective of decades old takes, they are destroying him for many of those people.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    It’s weird, but my immediate thought as someone who came in on the Post-Crisis Superman was to recall how much of that universe, and those before *and* after it, would always get shucked to the side and completely forgotten.

    I think that, as much as anything, shows where DC tends to screw up with Superman - anytime someone grows dissatisfied with the current status quo, they inevitably end up tossing out everything.

    Pre-Crisis got thrown out for Post-Crisis, Post-Crisis got thrown out for the attempt to do Birthright, Birthright got thrown out to do the Geoff Johns Silver Age redux, then the Silver Age redux got thrown out to try having JMS do Grounded, then that got thrown out for the first part fo the New 52, which got burned to the ground for Truth, before that got burned to the ground for Rebirth…

    Each of those had some moments, characters, or plot points people could learn to like before they got rejected for the next iteration.
    Yeah, for me, it's the ever-changing past that is the problem. Besides price, it's why I lost interest. It's not just minor continuity changes. It's rewriting history drastically and the feeling that I don't want to get too attached to a story or version because it will be thrown out at any time. I'm okay with a restart every 20 years or so (as long as it's not some vague restart that is a halfway restart that is unclear what is still canon and what isn't) but a soft restart every time I turn around is another thing entirely.
    Power with Girl is better.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I've heard people who love the video game say that it only works because it is a "side" version of Superman that would never work if it was declared to be the main version.

    I don't know of anybody in real life who thinks of Superman as a villain other than, "Oh, you mean that video game?" I've even heard people excuse what he does on the grounds that it makes sense given what happened to him.

    Of course, most of my age group are not video game enthusiasts anyway.

    You said Superman has come close to being the best villain in the movies. Is that a reference to MoS, B v S and JL? Because I can't imagine anybody watching those and hating a non-traditional take so much they could perceive the intent of those movies as making him the villain. In MoS, he is the troubled hero in a realistic world. In B v S, they could not go further in making it clear that Batman is off his rocker and persecuting someone who is not guilty of what Batman claims he is. JL is just Superman being freaked out at first and then becoming the big hero of the story.

    These are NOT my favorite renditions of Superman. But they are trying to make him a hero people care about in our world instead of something from the past that a lot of people find unbelievable. That's no different than Batman becoming unstable or Hal Jordan becoming Paralax. Thy're not trying to destroy Superman. They're trying to keep him relevant. But I can see where, from the perspective of decades old takes, they are destroying him for many of those people.
    in the last 20 years.
    Superman is the greatest villain in the DC games, in the movies he is a hero but it also shows how fragile his mind and heart is (first he fights against the JL, then it is hinted that he would become Darkseid's dog). In the series we see him as an extra of supergirl who has been lucky to get his own series, a series in which it has not taken a season to show an evil superman, in animation there are movies in which he is a hero and others in which is a villain. in 20 years outside of comics we only have, superman returns (a continuation that has taken 40 years, therefore it is a thing of the past) and smallville, in which superman is a hero without discussion.
    If Superman instead of 80 had 20 years, he would be a half-villain, half-hero.

  5. #20
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    I think most people still view Superman as a boy-scout. He’s still got Superman & Lois and a new cartoon coming out, right?

    If Superman’s legacy is ruined, they wouldn’t be pushing child-friendly content.

  6. #21
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    To answer the OP: WB/DC isn't *trying* to destroy Superman - they're just woefully inadequate when it comes to knowing what to do with him. They do not understand the character, and they've made that painfully clear - over... and over... and over. I'm honestly shocked that we have "Superman and Lois" right now. That's totally a "broken clock is right twice a day" type thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
    I wouldn't say they ''destroy it''. The thing is, classic Superman image isn't that profitable as they want it to be. That's the reason why they constantly try to change him, to reinovate him, or even create a new, younger Superman in case of Jon. Regarding evil Superman, unfortunately it's just very popular trope to use. It's pretty awful, but that's how things going. I once saw such an opinion that it is much easier for the modern casual public to accept a negative, or at least neutral, character with limitless powers, while it is easier to empathize with Batman because he is human. But I don't know how close it is to reality.
    Anyway, we at least have Superman & Lois, we have a new animated universe and also there was announcement of a new cartoon show. Not to mention current comics run, it's pretty good. So, at least we have some good Superman content.
    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    I don't think DC is 'destroying' the Superman legacy. Superman remains their biggest character after Batman, and one of the most iconic characters in the history of pop-culture (or just culture in general).

    One of the 'problems' with Superman (or maybe its a problem with his fanbase or the world at large) is that the 'traditional' or 'classic' takes on the character (best represented by the Donner movie) don't really appeal to the tastes of wider contemporary audiences. And any deviation from the 'traditional' take on Superman (like, say, Snyder's MOS) attracts the ire of a hardcore fanbase that won't accept anything but said 'traditional' take.
    Here's the funny thing: this "the traditional take won't work" mindset has been around since the 90's, and a good number of fans have bought into it, but this comes from DC. It's been their mindset and the viewpoint they've pushed repeatedly. And, honestly, I don't think that's accurate. Just because WB/DC is too stupid to know *how* to sell it doesn't mean it won't. I should also point out that if the only people pushing back against "non-traditional" versions were us, Snyder would have never stopped making DC movies.

    And someone will always try to use "Superman Returns" as a "they tried, honest!" but that's a traditional take in the paint-by-numbers variety only. If you copy the lines but miss the heart, no one is going to care. "Superman Returns" should not be a blanket excuse for WB's ineptitude.

    A mostly classic take could work just fine. It has to have the care and heart to go with it, though, or it'll never work. Smart writing and a solid story will sell. WB just hasn't had that in anything for a long time with Superman until "Superman and Lois". I'm hoping that some of the characterizations from this show end up being very influential, because (so far, anyway) it's been consistently strong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I wouldn't say DC are destroying Superman's legacy. I would say they aren't preserving his legacy.

    What that means is that different companies do various things to ensure flagship characters are treated with a certain respect. In Disney, Mickey Mouse doesn't make that much money as compared to Donald Duck, but that doesn't mean Disney does stuff like advertising Mickey as a plague-spreading rat who's talked down to by Donald.

    DC doesn't do enough to preserve Superman. Like for instance as editor/publisher they should put a moratorium on heat-vision or red-eyes glowing Superman images in various media since nowadays that's becoming far more iconic a superpower than Flight.
    This. All of this. I'd argue that Superman has a more complex thread to carry than Mickey, but it's still a good point. Superman can sell, but he'll constantly have problems until WB/DC is no longer stuck inside Batman's rectum and thinking that "the character is the problem" when it comes to Superman.
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  7. #22
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    DC hasn't destroyed Superman's legacy, but they've consistently failed to use the character to his full potential.

    I don't buy into this "People don't like traditional Superman" narrative. It's a shame that some in WB management and some Superman fans do. The character is still one of the top ten most popular superheroes out there, even with WB's mismanagement.

    The real problem is that if you fail to make exceptional media out of a character, that character's relevance will start to wane.

    WB doesn't know how to make exceptional Superman media, so the character's relevance will continue to feel diminished. Even still, he's doing better than most superheroes.

  8. #23
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Here's the funny thing: this "the traditional take won't work" mindset has been around since the 90's, and a good number of fans have bought into it, but this comes from DC. It's been their mindset and the viewpoint they've pushed repeatedly. And, honestly, I don't think that's accurate.
    .
    It's not about whether it will work or not.It's about giving creators room to work.It's about having different interpretations and persepectives.There are people who just aren't fans of the traditional take.who would like a different superman.who would like to get into superman.Case it and point,the emergence of so many different superman type characters not just in america but through out the world.
    "A friend. That's what people really need most, they don't need a strong arm or a vigilante force."
    This is a great take. But,i would like this.
    superman as a vigilante force
    Also,giving people the option to choose what they like would be crucial.Things like cw shows,lois and clark,donner..etc that the superman fanbase unanimously love have a limited range,when talking genre.They are all dramas with focus on romance,family,teen,office..etc.It kind is hard for creators to do their thing when they have to always stick to a "traditional" take.And from the general fan perspective,they would miss out on many things.Just because you or me don't like snyder.Doesn't mean there isn't a fanbase for those films.There isn't a fanbase for invincible...The evil superman as a troupe exists because superman ip itself doesn't produce variety in content which spiderman and even batman ips does or is capable of.Writers increasingly choose to do different takes or characters with superman as archetype.Not do different takes with superman himself.I view that as an other problem with the handling of the ip.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 06-16-2021 at 02:50 AM.
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  9. #24
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    I'm of the general opinion that if you like some commercial property, and it keeps getting extended, then eventually it's going to go in a direction that you don't like.

    Superman is 83 years old.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    It's not about whether it will work or not.It's about giving creators room to work.It's about having different interpretations and persepectives.There are people who just aren't fans of the traditional take.who would like a different superman.who would like to get into superman.Case it and point,the emergence of so many different superman type characters not just in america but through out the world.
    "A friend. That's what people really need most, they don't need a strong arm or a vigilante force."
    This is a great take. But,i would like this.
    superman as a vigilante force
    Also,giving people the option to choose what they like would be crucial.Things like cw shows,lois and clark,donner..etc that the superman fanbase unanimously love have a limited range,when talking genre.They are all dramas with focus on romance,family,teen,office..etc.It kind is hard for creators to do their thing when they have to always stick to a "traditional" take.And from the general fan perspective,they would miss out on many things.Just because you or me don't like snyder.Doesn't mean there isn't a fanbase for those films.There isn't a fanbase for invincible...The evil superman as a troupe exists because superman ip itself doesn't produce variety in content which spiderman and even batman ips does or is capable of.Writers increasingly choose to do different takes or characters with superman as archetype.Not do different takes with superman himself.I view that as an other problem with the handling of the ip.
    To me, it's the "cool for comics crowd" attempts that are limiting. DC has been trying to get an "alternate" take of Superman going for years now. Unless there's something else to back it up (like a game, in the case of "Injustice"), it doesn't fly. "Brightburn" did...ok.. at the box office, but I'd honestly be shocked if that franchise takes off much beyond the horror crowd and curious comics fans.

    I'm not arguing that there aren't people who like Snyder's take; I'm arguing that said fanbase is a fraction of a fraction of a fanbase that isn't a drop in the bucket of the larger market. And in that market, the movies did (relative to what was thrown at them) progressively smaller returns.

    WB wanted even darker things out of Superman than Terrio did - so it's not like they're forcing a traditional take on them. And the "evil Superman" trope has legs now because DC doesn't know how to promote their own character. And since DC doesn't have a direction, they don't know enough to hire writers with an inspired direction, either - and then everything becomes one big confirmation bias to DC that the character is the problem, and it all cycles from there.

    Superman had always done better at the newsstand than he ever did with the clique-y comics crowd. So when comics started going mainly to shops, Superman suffered. Superman has the ability to reach a LOT more people than most comics IPs. But he won't reach them by chasing comics trends. Romance and family along with the action will always have a larger general audience, and that's honestly what they need to lean into.
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  11. #26
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    To me, it's the "cool for comics crowd" attempts that are limiting. DC has been trying to get an "alternate" take of Superman going for years now. Unless there's something else to back it up (like a game, in the case of "Injustice"), it doesn't fly. "Brightburn" did...ok.. at the box office, but I'd honestly be shocked if that franchise takes off much beyond the horror crowd and curious comics fans.

    I'm not arguing that there aren't people who like Snyder's take; I'm arguing that said fanbase is a fraction of a fraction of a fanbase that isn't a drop in the bucket of the larger market. And in that market, the movies did (relative to what was thrown at them) progressively smaller returns.

    WB wanted even darker things out of Superman than Terrio did - so it's not like they're forcing a traditional take on them. And the "evil Superman" trope has legs now because DC doesn't know how to promote their own character. And since DC doesn't have a direction, they don't know enough to hire writers with an inspired direction, either - and then everything becomes one big confirmation bias to DC that the character is the problem, and it all cycles from there.

    Superman had always done better at the newsstand than he ever did with the clique-y comics crowd. So when comics started going mainly to shops, Superman suffered. Superman has the ability to reach a LOT more people than most comics IPs. But he won't reach them by chasing comics trends. Romance and family along with the action will always have a larger general audience, and that's honestly what they need to lean into.
    have they?No,They have continously done origin stories with superman(again and again),a bunch of takes where the guy goes dictator and jobs to batman,mindless rehashes of donner...but alternate takes?no.Red son,gods and monsters..etc are really small.Even things like smashes the klan is more a contemprory take on superman with callbacks to the 40s and 50s.the thing about bright burn is that it had less budget and it wasn't marketed as this big movie.The idea of doing a horror with superboy is something that i can appreciate.

    The same can be said about sticking to a take,whatever that maybe.The stuff with superman that superman fans seem to unanimously like reaches a set of demographics.it doen't beyond.

    I don't really care for darker or lighter.I prefer quality content.And ofcourse i have my preferences in stories(I have to choose between a good scifi or office drama.i would choose scifi).The story and themes demand the tone in which it is to be made.Evil superman has legs because there is an audience for it.No matter how much superman fans would deny it.There is a contingent who don't really get superman as a character. i think i have walked past that line myself to the other side.I mean,if i take secret origins or allstar or donner movies whatever,Not be impacted by it.It's not surprising.For me,it's because looking to the sky for a savior has never been my thing.I like a leaping champion.But,beyond that i can't grasp superman.I don't find it relatable.And the traditional take is heavily influenced by this savior example figure.

    I know superman did better at the newspaper stand.There is another reason for it.Newspaperstrip superman was easy consume with largely episodic nature and pacing,action..etc was different.You could just start reading everything would just move,just like that.it wasn't soap-opera the mainstream comics is.I firmly believe,the superman was made to be more of newspaper strip.But,then those things are thing of the past.They would need to make webcomic or something.
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  12. #27
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    have they?No,They have continously done origin stories with superman(again and again),a bunch of takes where the guy goes dictator and jobs to batman,mindless rehashes of donner...but alternate takes?no.Red son,gods and monsters..etc are really small.Even things like smashes the klan is more a contemprory take on superman with callbacks to the 40s and 50s.the thing about bright burn is that it had less budget and it wasn't marketed as this big movie.The idea of doing a horror with superboy is something that i can appreciate.
    Wait... so it has to be as different as Red Son for it to "count" as "non-traditional" for this? That's kinda nuts.

    And my point about Brightburn is that it didn't (forgive the pun) set the world on fire. Everybody didn't say "OMG, this is the Superman I've always wanted" or anything like that.

    The same can be said about sticking to a take, whatever that may be . The stuff with superman that superman fans seem to unanimously like reaches a set of demographics. it doen't beyond.
    There are some aspects that much of the fanbase would be good with that wouldn't do as well for a general audience, sure. But most of the elements like romance/etc will have a wider audience range than what WB has tried up until Superman & Lois. This idea that Superman is limiting is just nonsense.

    I don't really care for darker or lighter.I prefer quality content.And ofcourse i have my preferences in stories(I have to choose between a good scifi or office drama.i would choose scifi).The story and themes demand the tone in which it is to be made.
    A Superman story has room for both - how cool is that?

    Evil superman has legs because there is an audience for it.No matter how much superman fans would deny it.
    Again, it looks like it has legs is has because DC doesn't know what to do with the character, and that's the one idea they know how to push because it's painfully (I'd say stupidly) easy to do so. And even in this craptacular scenario, evil Superman may "have legs," but they're not very strong legs. Thinking that "Injustice" would translate much beyond the comics crowd that would never get Superman anyway is one heck of a stretch.

    There is a contingent who don't really get superman as a character. i think i have walked past that line myself to the other side.I mean,if i take secret origins or allstar or donner movies whatever,Not be impacted by it.It's not surprising.For me,it's because looking to the sky for a savior has never been my thing.I like a leaping champion.But,beyond that i can't grasp superman.I don't find it relatable.And the traditional take is heavily influenced by this savior example figure.
    Yes, I'm aware. And there are aspects of what you're saying you want that are completely in-line with a solid classic take on Superman. The take on Superman in Superman and Lois is, imo, a pretty traditional take, and isn't heavy with savior imagery. It has it's problems, but the character of Superman is (mostly) very well represented.

    I know superman did better at the newspaper stand.There is another reason for it.Newspaperstrip superman was easy consume with largely episodic nature and pacing,action..etc was different.You could just start reading everything would just move,just like that.it wasn't soap-opera the mainstream comics is.I firmly believe,the superman was made to be more of newspaper strip.But,then those things are thing of the past.They would need to make webcomic or something.
    Ah - you don't understand my meaning; which is no problem, I'm happy to clarify: comics used to be sold at newsstands, not just the papers. It's not that he's better as a paper strip character, but when his *comics* were sold there, that's where they did their best numbers. They also did so during the Post-Crisis era, which was more in the "soap opera" vein. The later Superman newspaper strips could be pretty heavy in that way too, honestly. What this shows is that Superman is a mainstream character, but isn't so much with the comic store crowd, who tended to be into the "badder" "flashier" or more "edgy" characters (Wolverine, The Maxx, etc - and today that's shifted to more anime/manga/etc). I enjoy those characters, too, but I honestly don't think Superman works well in that environment.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    I don't think DC is 'destroying' the Superman legacy. Superman remains their biggest character after Batman, and one of the most iconic characters in the history of pop-culture (or just culture in general).

    One of the 'problems' with Superman (or maybe its a problem with his fanbase or the world at large) is that the 'traditional' or 'classic' takes on the character (best represented by the Donner movie) don't really appeal to the tastes of wider contemporary audiences. And any deviation from the 'traditional' take on Superman (like, say, Snyder's MOS) attracts the ire of a hardcore fanbase that won't accept anything but said 'traditional' take.

    I'm oversimplying a bit, and there are more layers to this, but at a surface level this is the problem I feel.

    Which is not to say that there haven't been successful takes on Superman in recent years. And while I don't think there's a 'formula' as such for making Superman successful today, I feel that the best modern Superman stories are the ones that try to make us empathize with the character in some way, or understand what he's all about. All Star Superman manages to do this to probably the most unapproachable and alien version of the character - the Silver Age Superman! Birthright and American Alien both do a great job at this as origin stories. I think Superman & Lois is doing a great job with it now, presenting Clark as a father. And I personally think Man of Steel does a great job humanizing him as well.
    It's about simple as you put it. The fans have been split, for a very long time, on Superman. Is there a middle-ground to this? Yes, make better and compelling stories.

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