The Legion of superheroes is a victim of its own utopian premise.

[CaptCleghorn]

I don't see the problems with an optimistic future. Obviously dangers and threats still exist at that time and the Legion would need to save the day. That's not incompatible with flawed characters who have their own personal issues that need to be worked out. It's also not incompatible with stories that don't have clean endings with all loose ends ties up. With an optimistic future the heroes need to win. They can occasionally fail, but generally, they need to succeed. A pessimistic future means that they don't win the big war, but may succeed in small battles.

If we want true diversity in comics, shouldn't we have a variety of settings and ideas? Doesn't the idea of "dark is in, everything has got to be dark" limit what series can offer? I don't see anything wrong with the Legion having nice things in a nice place. One can so easily find a future that's yucky.

[Sutekh]

I don't see the problems with an optimistic future. Obviously dangers and threats still exist at that time and the Legion would need to save the day. That's not incompatible with flawed characters who have their own personal issues that need to be worked out. It's also not incompatible with stories that don't have clean endings with all loose ends ties up. With an optimistic future the heroes need to win. They can occasionally fail, but generally, they need to succeed. A pessimistic future means that they don't win the big war, but may succeed in small battles.

Agreed. Ultimately, the Legion was a spin-off of Superman/boy, and so the Legion future is a logical progression of the Smallville and Metropolis settings, which are no more or less 'utopian' in nature, IMO.

Had the Legion been a *Batman* spin-off, it's future Earth be a much darker setting, as befitting a progression of Gotham, and look more like planet Rimbor.

The existence of said future, having all sorts of crappier areas and races and characters, but the 'home city' not being a complete pesthole, doesn't limit stories about the Legion anymore than Themiscrysa being a generally idyllic place 'limits' stories about Wonder Woman, who does not spend 24/7 on 'Paradise Island,' anymore than the Legion spend 24/7 in future Metropolis.

[Jim Kelly]

I prefer to think that there are multiple possible futures. That was the premise of LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES 300 (June 1983).

And SUPERMAN 295 (January 1976)--itself a follow-up to KAMANDI, THE LAST BOY ON EARTH 29 (May 1975)--two divergent futures were established--one in which Kamandi existed and one in which the Legion of Super-Heroes existed.

If they want to establish other possible timelines, fine--but that shouldn't negate the possible timelines we already have.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I never saw Legion of Superheroes as utopian. The easiest way to pitch it is new era, new problems.

I don't need Clark, Kon, Kara etc to join. I'm cool with Mon-el as a POV character. But I understand why you have a 21st century character in a 31st century setting.

[Thor-Ul]

I never saw Legion of Superheroes as utopian. The easiest way to pitch it is new era, new problems.

I don't need Clark, Kon, Kara etc to join. I'm cool with Mon-el as a POV character. But I understand why you have a 21st century character in a 31st century setting.

Then Mon-El can be an excellent choice as a POV character, considering his time as a prisioner in the Phantom Zone.

[newparisian]

For me, I've read some Legion comics here and there. The Waid run, Johns' Superman arc, Lo3W, and Bendis. The Waid run was the most enjoyable for me. And it was partly because they were rebellious teens IIRC. Made it feel dangerous.

In general though, the Legion is a team I don't really care about. They fall into the "yet another superhero team" category, like Inhumans, Eternals, Defenders, Champions, Titans... where, sure, there's a reason for it to exist, but it's thin. Like, the Titans are JLA but grownup sidekicks; the Legion is JLA but in the future; the Defenders are a team but ooh la la they do their best to not act like a team. Whatever. If you like team books you've got JLA or Avengers or X-men or whatever. Legion is... just one more.

And of course the many different rebooted versions and ton of characters to keep track of don't help things either. It'd take a big name for me to even bother with the book, like Hickman. I read the Johns arc because it got a lot of praise (along with his Brainiac arc with Frank). Read Lo3W because it was part of Final Crisis. Etc. So putting, I don't know, Giffen on Legion would not be a draw for me. He's a fine writer, but not one I get out of bed for in the morning, y'know.

Never saw the point of connecting it to Superman, either. Like, Superman is already the #1 best hero of all time, in-universe. But oh when he was a teen he also had these other adventures in the future? It's just unnecessary and always felt like a crutch to prop up the Legion. It's like if Batman fought with a team of detectives when he was a teen. Sure, it's a story you COULD tell. But like, why? Who does it enrich? Batman's fine without this wrinkle in his past. Similarly, it never felt like teen Clark (and adult Superman) benefited from this association with the Legion. It's there. But if you were to excise it, Superman would still be the same character and you'd lose nothing.

This is just an outsider's perspective, of course. I've never read the Great Darkness Saga or the DnA run, or whatever fans hold up as the must-read periods of the book. So I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of nuance that makes the Legion "worthy of reading". But, it's like, every book or team is "worthy of reading" according to their diehard fans. But it has to somehow grab the attention of people who wouldn't normally read it for it to grow in popularity / sales / pop culture cache. I never cared for the Punisher until the MAX run, for example. And went right back to not caring after Ennis left (though the Aaron follow-up was pretty damn good). But hearing amazing things about the MAX run made me go, huh, maybe there's something there and I should check it out because non-fans are praising it too.

Another example would be Hickman's X-men. I dropped it during Bendis' run. But when I heard there was a crazy new status quo and everyone's buzzing about it, I came back to the book. And the X-men has always been my #1 favorite comic. But even there I need a solid reason to give a ****. So something like the Legion, which is already way down the totem pole, would REALLY need to pull out the stops for me to give it a look.

I don't think it's necessarily the utopian setting that's holding it back. I think the team is just not appealing and hasn't had the creative push and marketing behind it for decades. If the team as a concept was going to take off as a lasting thing, then it would've done so by now frankly. Same with Eternals, Inhumans, etc.

[Zero Hunter]

I never saw Legion of Superheroes as utopian. The easiest way to pitch it is new era, new problems.

I don't need Clark, Kon, Kara etc to join. I'm cool with Mon-el as a POV character. But I understand why you have a 21st century character in a 31st century setting.

That is how I see it too. The UP is no utopia. It still has all the modern day problems like crime and such plus the added threat of cosmic threats like the Khunds, Dominators, and others they hold a fragile peace with. Maybe things like hunger and such a less, but it is still there. Yeah it is better than it is today, but it still had a lot of problems which is why the Science Police are such a huge presence.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Then Mon-El can be an excellent choice as a POV character, considering his time as a prisioner in the Phantom Zone.

I don't really care for that part but ok. I'm cool with him just being a descendant.

[Jim Kelly]

The Legion of Super-Heroes appears before the Justice League of America and before the Teen Titans.

Granted the Legion didn't get their own series until later. What pushed them was fan response. Readers wrote in to Mort Weisinger and asked for the team to be brought back. They guest appeared in all the different Superman titles. And the groundswell of fan support finally won them their own series.

It's one of the early cases of fandom driving a series' success. It was right at the beginning of the comic book fandom movement, when readers started to publish their own home-made fanzines. Readers from all over the continent were finally getting in touch with each other and organizing.

A lot of those readers were around the same age as the Legionnaires themselves and they felt invested in those characters. Here were teens getting involved and making the world better--even when adults didn't appreciate their efforts. I'm told that the female readership was much greater for the Legion than other super-hero groups at the time--and the female members were a larger percentage of the group than in other super-groups.

Granted the book failed to represent many people--despite the efforts of writers and artists to do so (they couldn't get their ideas past the editors)--but Jim Shooter drew upon the friends he had at school for how to write the Legionnaires--Jim himself being only fourteen when he got the job as a writer.

Whatever it was that the Legion had, it was something that the readers responded to and supported. Maybe the secret was they were a grass roots movement--something that arose from fandom--and always pushed the publisher to bring them back.

With all the reboots, I think the publisher has killed off those grass roots (and the first generation of readers are pushing up daisies). So now when a new Legion is created, it's always a top down affair. The publisher foisting the concept upon a market that isn't invested in the team.

[newparisian]

A lot of those readers were around the same age as the Legionnaires themselves and they felt invested in those characters. Here were teens getting involved and making the world better--even when adults didn't appreciate their efforts. I'm told that the female readership was much greater for the Legion than other super-hero groups at the time--and the female members were a larger percentage of the group than in other super-groups.

...

Whatever it was that the Legion had, it was something that the readers responded to and supported. Maybe the secret was they were a grass roots movement--something that arose from fandom--and always pushed the publisher to bring them back.

In-universe, isn't this what Waid's run was aiming for?

[Jim Kelly]

In-universe, isn't this what Waid's run was aiming for?

I don't know. I didn't really bother much with either Waid reboot. I only really got into the Threeboot when Jim Shooter came on the book. Mark Waid did come out of Legion fandom--heavily influenced by Shooter's stories--so maybe that's what he was aiming for. But I never felt drawn into it--to me it seemed like something that was imposed upon us by the publisher, rather than something we were asking for.

[Thor-Ul]

The Legion of Super-Heroes appears before the Justice League of America and before the Teen Titans.

Granted the Legion didn't get their own series until later. What pushed them was fan response. Readers wrote in to Mort Weisinger and asked for the team to be brought back. They guest appeared in all the different Superman titles. And the groundswell of fan support finally won them their own series.

It's one of the early cases of fandom driving a series' success. It was right at the beginning of the comic book fandom movement, when readers started to publish their own home-made fanzines. Readers from all over the continent were finally getting in touch with each other and organizing.

A lot of those readers were around the same age as the Legionnaires themselves and they felt invested in those characters. Here were teens getting involved and making the world better--even when adults didn't appreciate their efforts. I'm told that the female readership was much greater for the Legion than other super-hero groups at the time--and the female members were a larger percentage of the group than in other super-groups.

Granted the book failed to represent many people--despite the efforts of writers and artists to do so (they couldn't get their ideas past the editors)--but Jim Shooter drew upon the friends he had at school for how to write the Legionnaires--Jim himself being only fourteen when he got the job as a writer.

Whatever it was that the Legion had, it was something that the readers responded to and supported. Maybe the secret was they were a grass roots movement--something that arose from fandom--and always pushed the publisher to bring them back.

With all the reboots, I think the publisher has killed off those grass roots (and the first generation of readers are pushing up daisies). So now when a new Legion is created, it's always a top down affair. The publisher foisting the concept upon a market that isn't invested in the team.

I think this resumes exactly which are the reasons for the rise and fall of the Legion.

[CaptCleghorn]

I never saw Legion of Superheroes as utopian. The easiest way to pitch it is new era, new problems.

I don't need Clark, Kon, Kara etc to join. I'm cool with Mon-el as a POV character. But I understand why you have a 21st century character in a 31st century setting.

And sometimes we need to remember what adds to story potential. I once heard a description of stories have=ing two basic premises. One is where an ordinary person finds themself in extraordinary circumsytances, or an exceptional person finding themself in ordinary circumstances.

[Zero Hunter]

In-universe, isn't this what Waid's run was aiming for?

The problem with Waid is he was more interested in making a point than telling good stories. Yeah his Legion was supposed to be a movement, but he made all the characters into assholes with their "suck it grandpa" catch phrase that you started hating them. He flat out just copied Vril Dox II from LEGION and called him Brainiac 5 which did not work at all. He even went so far as to make the entire team ok with commiting genocide of the Dominators. Yeah it was a trick and they just exiled them to a phantom zone but only 4 people on the team knew that. The rest were ok being mass murders and that betrayed every single thing the Legion has ever stood for.