Are Polaris and Rachel two potential Omega Level mutants in waiting?

[Grey]

Hmm. In that case, I think a lot of the problem is simply that there's decades worth of history he didn't know when formulating the criteria and deciding who would fit. Which isn't a mark against him. It's impossible for anyone to know everything. There's characters, stories, statements, etc that have been forgotten because nobody bothered to remember their contributions. Sort of a "you don't know what you don't know" situation. But I think it's clear at this point that either the definition of Omega, the list of who qualifies, or how those things were decided needs revision.

Frankly speaking, it would have been better if there were several rounds of "testing" it first or a built-in explanation for discrepancies. It's easier to accept if it's an in-the-works concept, if the list isn't considered a complete list, if it's coming from a certain in-universe perspective, etc. Not as easy when it's "Word of God" stuff where a character being left off the list can negatively impact them by killing potential future stories, effectively retconning past stories, or forcing relationships between characters down only certain paths. It's why I've said before that the entire classification in and of itself shouldn't even exist. It's an artificial limiter that needlessly kills potential for stories and characters and offers nothing in return.

Although also speaking frankly, even in a hypothetical situation where there's an absolutely perfect and irrefutable definition and list for Omega, there would still be discussions and arguments. People are going to argue for their faves to be on lists like this - because ultimately these lists are really just entrenched biases given structure to make them look more objective than they really are.

Yea I agree with you regarding the decades of history. I just think he wanted to categorize something and it’s just not gonna matter really In the long run. It’s like the rumble threads endessly debated.

I mean this with alll due respect to mr Hickman and not an insult at all, but I think he has some ocd/spectrum tendencies and he gets fixated on certain things that pertain to the story he wants to tell. Like I’m guessing the omegas will have a large role in his story outcome and I can imagine him being bothered by the years of non-standardized word usage.

Again, no disrespect (for any mods or mr Hickman himself who may see this). That’s just kinda how I view some of his ideas. I hope no offense is taken.

[sunofdarkchild]

I cannot argue against that interpretation, but take Jean for example. How is her telepathy measured? What is the hypothetical extent of power possible? Is her being able to maybe maintain a link from Earth to the Sun the limit? Is it not hypothetical that someone could establish a link over a further distance? What is the range of the Cerebro backups? Is telepathy just talking? Mind control? Something else? Is Jean a match for someone with the Phoenix force? What about Moondragon combined with the PF? Despite the attempts at technical language, the list just reads as a best in class.

I'd say the list does not account for beings like the Beyonder, someone whose power is truly limitless by our definitions. If the Beyonder were to try his hand at magnetism he'd easily best Magneto every time, but if that would mean that Magneto isn't an Omega-level mutant then it would also mean that no one is an Omega-level mutant. It would destroy the concept of Omega-level mutants. Telepathy, weather manipulation, telekenisis, you name it, the Beyonder is better at it than every mutant who ever lived or ever will live. Even Isca would lose to him. But that is, ahem, beyond the scope of what the definition is trying to measure. That is why I say that Hickman's definition in fact places limits on the omegas that we may not have seen before. None of them are truly limitless in power. They are at the limit of what a single non-cosmic person can hope to achieve in a particular powerset without outside interference. So being an Omega would not automatically make someone better than a Phoenix-amped individual. Maybe Emma is she has her power boosted by all the Cuckoos is better at telepathy than Jean, but Jean is still the Omega telepath because Emma can't do that on her own and neither can anyone else. Magneto can perhaps have his power temporarily boosted if Lorna helps him, but that doesn't count towards his maximum power or the limits that define him as an Omega, since that doesn't all come from him.

[Omega_DCD]

Side note, I’m still salty Jean was classified as omega telepathic Instead of telekinetic. No, I don’t have a ratiionak reason. I just always felt her tk was her more interesting and skilled power of the two. #whine

I hate the arbitrary "downgrade" of her TK Omega status, especially since there's never been any indication that as a dual-psi, one aspect is more of less powerful or dominant than the other

However, Jean's telepathy has always been a very strong trait for her.

It was her very first power manifestation, awakening during the Annie Richardson incident, and she actually psychically stopped Annie's transition to death for a fraction of a second, also first getting the attention of the Phoenix Force

(Pre-X-Men) Xavier and young Jean mentally visit Scott at Sinister's orphanage, but Xavier himself cannot "see" Scott, he can only do so through Jean's telepathy.

Young Jean's mind was used by Xavier and Moira to calibrate Cerebro

After Xavier blocks her telepathy and Jean joins the X-Men....in the second issue of X-Men they encounter the Vanisher, and she tells the team she knows he's really a mutant, she can SENSE it

Xavier's mental blocks start being worn down by Jean unknowingly trying to "connect" with Scott during their teen days. Jean's empathy and telepathy are growing strong enough to break through Xavier's blocks, prompting him to start Jean's formal training

Again as a teen, she's able to telepathically attack Juggernaut through his helmet, and he compares the pain to an attack from Xavier himself

She's able to telepathically communicate with Warren and Scott(both in separate locations themselves) and also Hank who is not only 3,000 miles away, but 2 miles up in the sky...all without Cerebro

She's able to track an electronic/robotic "mind"

During the Z'Knoxx invasion attempt...Xavier spends months planning a defense, to link humanity's goodness and overwhelm the Z'noxx with it. Jean only has maybe a few days to prepare and she shows the capacity to receive millions of linked minds from Xavier

The shuttle incident, this time she's able to slow her own transition to death despite the intense solar radiation damage, and psychically makes contact with the Phoenix Force.

Dark Phoenix tells Xavier that it was him "that first unlocked her telepathy...that set in motion the events that created first Phoenix, and then Dark Phoenix." That strongly suggests it's Jean's telepathy that makes her such a potent Phoenix host.

During the X-Factor days, even with her telepathy damaged, she's able to get impressions and empathetic readings

Early Gold Team era...soon after she gets her full telepathy, she is almost killed by advanced Sentinels from Bishop&Fitzroy's timeline while defending some of the Hellions. She is then able to fully transfer her consciousness into Emma's body. Without any mechanical or artificial means. Xavier examines Jean/Emma and tells Forge that Jean's never been able to do this before, but that soon after he unlocked her telepathy, she quickly became a telepath of intricate complexity...and believes this is how the Phoenix Force was able to inhabit Jean's mind.

During X-Cutioner's song, she's able to fire off a distressed telepathic beacon from the moon to Earth (over 200,000 miles) to Wolverine

During Onslaught, she's able to resist his attempts to first have Jean become Phoenix and join him...then to dig into her mind to try to find out how to access the Phoenix himself. Denied both times. Also the fact that he tried to recruit her first, along with Franklin and Nate Grey.

After Xavier goes missing, Jean is performing global telepathic searches without Cerebro

Revolution...Jean and Psylocke swap powers, and Jean is able to accommodate the extra telepathy from Psylocke with no problem.

Soon after Jean is officially named an Omega level mutant so those feats afterwards speak for themselves

[Tank]

This. The term was first coined specifically to refer to Rachel. She IS the original Omega.

That definition is different from Xavier’s version.

[Tank]

They have the same powers as their parents Magneto and Jean, who are Omega Level.

Yet they themselves are not considered Omegas.

Could they reach Omega Level with enough time?

No. You either are or you aren’t. And they aren’t

[The tall man]

I think it would be best if omegas were done away with, it seems everyone is obsessed with their faves being an all powerful unbeatable omega level mutant. But since omegas are likely here to stay how do they stack up against Infinity stones/gems wielders? How would Jean/Quintin fare against the mind gem wielder, Vulcan/Storm against the power gem wielder or Proteus/Jamie against the reality gem wielder? Having the gems makes you virtually omnipotent, how does an omega compare to that especially when we've seen omegas get depowered by tech (power dampeners). And lastly doesn't omega simply mean potential, a level of power that is potentially available to a particular mutant but not guaranteed.

[Micabe]

Given the nature of their powers...both Rachel and Lorna may only have measurable limits until they decide to push past those limits.

Have we ever seen Rachel (sans the Phoenix Force) or Lorona operate in outterspace for exstended periods of time under their own power like Jean can?

[Askani's Flame]

Have we ever seen Rachel (sans the Phoenix Force) or Lorona operate in outterspace for exstended periods of time under their own power like Jean can?

When was the last time Jean did that? Not trying to be argumentative but literally asking the question as I don't think I remember when Jean did it under her own power.

[Omega_DCD]

When was the last time Jean did that? Not trying to be argumentative but literally asking the question as I don't think I remember when Jean did it under her own power.

Jean did so in that X-Men Unlimited issue when she helps save Binary...issue #13 to be exact

[Havok83]

When was the last time Jean did that? Not trying to be argumentative but literally asking the question as I don't think I remember when Jean did it under her own power.

[Omega_DCD]

What I also love about that is it shows her TK was still growing...in X-Factor #43 (start of the Judgement War arc) when Phoenix's and Madelyne's personalities were still vying for control after Inferno, "Phoenix" sees open space and bursts through the spaceship, but a few seconds later Jean realizes she can't breathe and almost dies.

[davew128]

I think it would be best if omegas were done away with, it seems everyone is obsessed with their faves being an all powerful unbeatable omega level mutant. But since omegas are likely here to stay how do they stack up against Infinity stones/gems wielders? How would Jean/Quintin fare against the mind gem wielder, Vulcan/Storm against the power gem wielder or Proteus/Jamie against the reality gem wielder? Having the gems makes you virtually omnipotent, how does an omega compare to that especially when we've seen omegas get depowered by tech (power dampeners). And lastly doesn't omega simply mean potential, a level of power that is potentially available to a particular mutant but not guaranteed.

See the thing about the Infinity Gems (I refuse to call them stones) is that their abilities were always co-dependent on each other. What made the gauntlet so powerful is that each gem was backed by the infinite power of the power gem to focus its abilities.

When Moondragon had the mind gem, I don't recall anything that showed her to be any different power or ability wise than she was before she had the gem. As it is, in terms of telepathic ability and power, I think she's ALREADY above Jean/Quentin, so perhaps under the rating system, neither is truly omega.

As for the power gem, on its own we've never seen it used for anything beyond providing physical strength to its user so we really don't know what if anything an energy wielder could do with it.

As for the reality gem, Thanos himself said it was the most dangerous of all unless you had the time gem so as to undo any unwelcome effects. That said, on its own it could pretty much do anything the user wanted. I suspect it would be more powerful than any mutant reality warper with the possible exception of an adult Franklin Richards.

[Subliminal]

Have we ever seen Rachel (sans the Phoenix Force) or Lorona operate in outterspace for exstended periods of time under their own power like Jean can?

I suppose if the criterion for being labelled as an Omega is the ability to survive the vacuum of space without power augmentations could work. Might we consider unlimited fashion and style potential for Lorna and Rachel? Who rocked the mullet better than Rachel and Lorna/Malice? Hmmm... maybe a proclivity for being mind-controlled has held them back?

[raidensix]

Interesting scans. This runs counter to Jean's second death at the hands of Xorn/Magneto. While in space with Logan, she could not maintain a TK field to contain the oxygen and protect her from the vacuum of space. Logan had to "kill" her to unleash the Phoenix and create a craft for the two of them to travel back to Earth.

[Omega_DCD]

Interesting scans. This runs counter to Jean's second death at the hands of Xorn/Magneto. While in space with Logan, she could not maintain a TK field to contain the oxygen and protect her from the vacuum of space. Logan had to "kill" her to unleash the Phoenix and create a craft for the two of them to travel back to Earth.

It's not that she couldn't fly in space at all, just "not the way you (Logan) mean", with enough life-support and/or fast enough to transport two people from near the Sun all the way back to Earth before starving, dying of thirst, or running out of air...even spaceships from Earth to the Moon take about 3 days