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  1. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    I dont think anyone has forgotten that. Nor has anyone forgotten that most of what's been done has been done by people not in on the conspiracy. People are patting mutants on the back because 99.9999999% of the mutant populace are people who have been shown just...working together in ways they never have before, ways that lead to progress for all mutantkind because its RIGHT, and its NEW, and they arent afraid anymore, and its glorious. It's showing us mutants enjoying a life that's mostly free from the constant struggle to survive against violent bigots and indifferent 'allies' on top of the usual comic book villainy and disasters. That's something I think ANY oppressed group would love, which is why people seem to be embracing it, despite knowing it'll come to an end.

    Sure, it's all going to come crashing down around them thanks to the secrets Xavier is keeping, because that's how X comics always work, but I see so many people just ENJOYING this pro-mutant world being showcased because for once, they have hope, and that makes the naysayers who keep crapping on everyone's fun seem more malicious.
    I can't help but feel i'm watching the story of Icarus here. Only we spend the previous 50 years watching the story of Daedalus and his son's various adventures and the last 20 years were just a chain of horrible depressing events involving them.

    Only now it was even retconned in that Daedalus lived 8 previous lives and in each he killed Icarus in some other way by his hubris.

    So now we are the point where Icarus is soaring above the clouds, seeing how small the world beneath him is, the sky so open and glorious above him and Deadalus is totaly sure that having replaced the wax with some secret super glue is sure to have the desired effect.

    But we know the story can't end with Icarus staying in the air forever and Daedalus needs to still needs to struggle until the company writing his story closes down, so Icarus has to come crashing down and now it's just the guessing game what will ultimately burn the wings.

    I find it darkly ironic that the narrative structure of this super hero universe, which has given the mutants all this suffering in the past and which is now used to justify their actions, mentality and perspective, is also what will ultimately doom this moment of glory and prevent anything of this "earth shattering greatness" like the terraformed mars, the super island and the unity of mutants under one (badly detailed) banner from remaining for long.

    Because this comic is not allowed to have an end point. There is no true victory achievable here, as the nature of this universe requires that 10 years from now the heros need to still live in a world forced to reflect our own, because the narrative is required to allow readers to relate to the "common man" of this universe who goes to school (kids and teens) or does their 9/5 job (adults) and sees reports of catastrophies, conflict and crime on the news that they might wish there could be these stand up individuals of power and moral who oppose these injustices in the real world too.

    Therefor it is not a universe which allows an utopic future based on these current events. No world ruled by benevolent super powered overlords, no world of technology and magic that solves all needs (at least not for the common man) and not a world were everyone has super powers themself (as that would make the various heros redundant).

    A situation which the X-men and mutants would only ever be allowed to escape from if they would live in their own universe cut-off from the rest of the marvel properties (see My Hero Academia for how such a world could look like) and allowed to have a victorious end, but which in turn would have not created this continuity where a new writer with little respect for the franchise decided to casualy kill of 16 million mutants for a cheap shock moment, an editor in chief felt the need to reduce the mutant population to 198 all of a sudden because mutants became "too common" and overshadow the other marvel heros, or where the head of the company felt they need to replace mutants with inhumans because of movie rights (and much more).
    Which in turn are the foundation for justifying this current depiction of the "heros" and why the mutants suddently have all these benefits the writer snapped into existence.

    So in a way it's a catch 22 situation. All of this would only have a happy ending if it was allowed to end at some point and stood on it's own. But the reason this story is happening at all is because it's not standing on it's own and it's not allowed to have a happy ending.

    After all the apathy inducing darkness Morrison kicked off (and which in my opinion should finaly been burried rather than be taken as standard for how the X-men should be written heading forward), i would have wished for the mutants and X-men to finaly have at least some 20 good years ahead of them now. Years were things are looking brighter for the mutants and where slowly but steadily the overall situation improves through all the hardship they might still face. A sustainable improvement compared to everything since House of M, which wouldn't cause the all might status quo to roar it's ugly head and break everything down again to fit in line.
    Just like how in the real world there are steady improvements, even if the world at large remains bleak.

    But this isn't a steady improvement or sustainable direction in my opinion, this is a massive sudden expansion which will just blow up and leave behind even more damage. The "Roaring 20s" of mutantkind (you may now imagine your favorit female X-men in a flapper dress). Because as detailed above, there is no victory achievable here and sooner or later it all has to fit into the old box again and the bigger it has become the more it needs to be broken down.

    After all, with the mutants being able to casualy terraform a planet, how are big purple robots and hate mongers with lead pipes supppsed to feel like a worthy problem for them anymore?
    As far as i can see it the answer is, not really. There doesn't seem to be anything at stake here, because the writers seem so focused on making the mutants look strong, powerfull, ahead of everyone else and better, that nothing feels like being a danger to them anymore.
    Heck they now have a respawn system in place and it normalizes dying for the heros to the point of comedy.

    This current direction does not have any memorable or stand out villains. Everyone either feels laughable weak or meaningless or if they can overpower the heros like the grannies did, it feels contrived. So there are no stakes, no real danger nothing interesting going on but just another "look how awesome they are now". Which again is not a sustainable direction as far as i'm concerned.

    In turn, this would mean that eventualy all of this current situation has to turn out to be "wrong" in some way, regardless of how much the writers want to convince the reader that it's "right".
    Something needs to throw a wrench into all of this, not only to break it down but also explain why it can't just been done again afterwards. That's not my hope, that's just a prediction from knowing how this company works.

    So it's no suprise some are trying to see or argue where the "wrong" is, something which is at times difficult because it's not always clear where a writer is sincere with showing cracks or does so unintentional because they didn't notice how badly they depict the heros.

    But i agree, that's no reason to try to ruin it for everyone. Albeit i like to express my viewpoints too.
    Last edited by Grunty; 06-19-2021 at 02:01 PM.

  2. #707
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    So if it's already too late, what does it matter what the humans do, in relation to themselves? At this point it's a lost cause,nthey go extinct at the hands of the mutants, or go extinct at the hands of the Phalanx. As far as they're aware/concerned there's no difference. Whether it's the Phalanx, bring outbred, or the mutants just moving to Mars and then blowing the Earth up behind them, it all ends the same way
    If mutantkind becomes the majority, humanity- it's culture, ideas, history, etc, still lives, because mutants are still a part of it. With the Phalanx, all traces of humanity are gone, except as a footnote among the thousands (millons?) of the Phalanx collective).

  3. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    So anywho, I get that they (particularly Magneto, it seems, although some non-Omegas like Emma and Monet seems impressed by big showy spectacles as well) wanted the 'flex' of just having a dozen or so Omega mutants do the terraforming deed, but *I* would have loved if instead they had shown up en masse. Instead of Vulcan (and Hope) blasting a hole for Magneto's new iron core, a bunch of geokinetic sorts like Magma, Petra, Rictor and Avalanche could have opened up the tunnel to the core, and instead of Magneto moving the iron by himself, Polaris, Jean, Exodus, Hellion, etc. could have helped, and instead of his magnetism somehow compressing the core to heat it, a combination of Sunfire, Thunderbird 3, Magma, Firestar and Vulcan could have heated up the millions of tons of metal. Need to create an entire ecosystem worth of micro-life, people like Plague and the Horseman Pestilence could have served, as well as those Arakki mutants.

    The whole 'showing off our Omegas' thing felt a little much for me.
    That would defeat the whole purpose of the flex. The whole point was to show that a hand full of mutants could do this. It wouldn't be as impressive

  4. #709
    Mighty Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    I can't help but feel i'm watching the story of Icarus here. Only we spend the previous 50 years watching the story of Daedalus and his son's various adventures and the last 20 years were just a chain of horrible depressing events involving them.

    Only now it was even retconned in that Daedalus lived 8 previous lives and in each he killed Icarus in some other way by his hubris.

    So now we are the point where Icarus is soaring above the clouds, seeing how small the world beneath him is, the sky so open and glorious above him and Deadalus is totaly sure that having replaced the wax with some secret super glue is sure to have the desired effect.

    But we know the story can't end with Icarus staying in the air forever and Daedalus needs to still needs to struggle until the company writing his story closes down, so Icarus has to come crashing down and now it's just the guessing game what will ultimately burn the wings.

    I find it darkly ironic that the narrative structure of this super hero universe, which has given the mutants all this suffering in the past and which is now used to justify their actions, mentality and perspective, is also what will ultimately doom this moment of glory and prevent anything of this "earth shattering greatness" like the terraformed mars, the super island and the unity of mutants under one (badly detailed) banner from remaining for long.

    Because this comic is not allowed to have an end point. There is no true victory achievable here, as the nature of this universe requires that 10 years from now the heros need to still live in a world forced to reflect our own, because the narrative is required to allow readers to relate to the "common man" of this universe who goes to school (kids and teens) or does their 9/5 job (adults) and sees reports of catastrophies, conflict and crime on the news that they might wish there could be these stand up individuals of power and moral who oppose these injustices in the real world too.

    Therefor it is not a universe which allows an utopic future based on these current events. No world ruled by benevolent super powered overlords, no world of technology and magic that solves all needs (at least not for the common man) and not a world were everyone has super powers themself (as that would make the various heros redundant).

    A situation which the X-men and mutants would only ever be allowed to escape from if they would live in their own universe cut-off from the rest of the marvel properties (see My Hero Academia for how such a world could look like) and allowed to have a victorious end, but which in turn would have not created this continuity where a new writer with little respect for the franchise decided to casualy kill of 16 million mutants for a cheap shock moment, an editor in chief felt the need to reduce the mutant population to 198 all of a sudden because mutants became "too common" and overshadow the other marvel heros, or where the head of the company felt they need to replace mutants with inhumans because of movie rights (and much more).
    Which in turn are the foundation for justifying this current depiction of the "heros" and why the mutants suddently have all these benefits the writer snapped into existence.

    So in a way it's a catch 22 situation. All of this would only have a happy ending if it was allowed to end at some point and stood on it's own. But the reason this story is happening at all is because it's not standing on it's own and it's not allowed to have a happy ending.

    After all the apathy inducing darkness Morrison kicked off (and which in my opinion should finaly been burried rather than be taken as standard for how the X-men should be written heading forward), i would have wished for the mutants and X-men to finaly have at least some 20 good years ahead of them now. Years were things are looking brighter for the mutants and where slowly but steadily the overall situation improves through all the hardship they might still face. A sustainable improvement compared to everything since House of M, which wouldn't cause the all might status quo to roar it's ugly head and break everything down again to fit in line.
    Just like how in the real world there are steady improvements, even if the world at large remains bleak.

    But this isn't a steady improvement or sustainable direction in my opinion, this is a massive sudden expansion which will just blow up and leave behind even more damage. Because as detailed above, there is no victory achievable here and sooner or later it all has to fit into the old box again and the bigger it has become the more it needs to be broken down.

    After all, with the mutants being able to casualy terraform a planet, how are big purple robots and hate mongers with lead pipes supppsed to feel like a worthy problem for them anymore?
    As far as i can see it the answer is, not really. There doesn't seem to be anything at stake here, because the writers seem so focused on making the mutants look strong, powerfull, ahead of everyone else and better, that nothing feels like being a danger to them anymore.
    Heck they now have a respawn system in place and it normalizes dying for the heros to the point of comedy.

    This current direction does not have any memorable or stand out villains. Everyone either feels laughable weak or meaningless or if they can overpower the heros like the grannies did, it feels contrived. So there are no stakes, no real danger nothing interesting going on but just another "look how awesome they are now". Which again is not a sustainable direction as far as i'm concerned.

    In turn, this would mean that eventualy all of this current situation has to turn out to be "wrong" in some way, regardless of how much the writers want to convince the reader that it's "right".
    Something needs to throw a wrench into all of this, not only to break it down but also explain why it can't just been done again afterwards.

    So it's no suprise some are trying to see or argue where the "wrong" is, something which is at times difficult because it's not always clear where a writer is sincere with showing cracks or does so unintentional because they didn't notice how badly they depict the heros.
    Shakespeare's best plays are his tragedies. And soap operas (which HEAVILY influenced comics) are full of protagonists who do bad things, and villains who choose to do good. This era of X-Men is refreshing in acknowledging that there are no true 'good guys' or 'bad guys', and that trauma has effects that span lifetimes. Some are more are less ethical than others, some more or less moral, but everyone approaches the world from the perspective of their experiences. I like the Icarus time loop comparison, and think that part helps really sell the whole thing, for me. It isnt going to end well, but there are a lot of great ideas and possibilities to play with, going forward. I'm enjoying the ride, both the super heroics and the philosophical stuff.
    Last edited by zinderel; 06-19-2021 at 01:56 PM.

  5. #710
    Mighty Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Mutants are born from humans and humans can be born from mutants, they are part of each other and part of the humanity collective, sadly Mastermold seems to be the only one to see this in itīs fullest expression because of his logic, when he was progamed to end all mutant lives back in the silver age he also targeted humans because they are the ones who comunicate the mutant gen and give birth to mutants.

    The Phalanx are just interested in eating to add to itīs collective, everybody is just food, thatīs why Warlock betrayed his father when he was send to conquer Earth the first time around.



    Exactly! The Phalanx are the Borg, and humanity chose to focus on joining them instead of building the Federation...THEY won't get to see a world with holodecks, so why should they make sure there's a world with holodecks in it for their kids to enjoy!?
    Last edited by zinderel; 06-19-2021 at 01:59 PM.

  6. #711
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    Shakespeare's best plays are his tragedies. And soap operas (which HEAVILY influenced comics) are full of protagonists who do bad things, and villains who choose to do good. This era of X-Men is refreshing in acknowledging that there are no true 'good guys' or 'bad guys'. Some are more are less ethical than others, some more or less moral, but everyone approaches the world from the perspective of their experiences. I like the Icarus time loop comparison, and think that part helps really sell the whole thing, for me.
    Agree X-stories always had tragedy and epic aspects in the narrative I appreaciate the fact this story is not being told as if "All mutants got together and lived happily ever after" thatīs not realist, they are united but the old conflicts, differences, perspectives, their humanity are quite alive and part of the narrative being told there with all the consequences this entails.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    Exactly! The Phalanx are the Borg, and humanity chose to focus on joining them instead of building the Federation...THEY won't get to see a world with holodecks, so why should they make sure there's a world with holodecks in it!?
    Indeed , the main feeling I got after PoX was What a waste, they could have been so much more without their division but they didnīt and now they are going to become phalanx and the Shiar will take over the Sol system to stop the advance of the collective to other systems, this is the worst end ever. All the effort of humanity including the Avengers, FF4,X-men were for nothing. This is a tragedy.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 06-19-2021 at 02:05 PM.
    what is man that you are mindful of him,
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  7. #712

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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    That should be Moira's last life, when she realizes that for EITHER side to have any hope of peace, they have to come together.
    That's an interesting idea, though it would literally retcon every single second of the X-Mens history since 1963

  8. #713
    Mighty Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    That's an interesting idea, though it would literally retcon every single second of the X-Mens history since 1963
    It would be something different. Maybe it would flop, and we'd have to return to the world of hate, fear, ignorance and genocide for the crime of being born different or 'wrong'. But Marvel has about run this whole 'hated and feared' thing into the ground, and I'd much rather read a hopeful futurist fiction than the same old apocalypses and genocides...

    That's why I'm a Star Trek fan, not so much a Star Wars fan...
    Last edited by zinderel; 06-19-2021 at 02:08 PM.

  9. #714
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    This is why I liked the ending for Age of Apocalypse before Remender destroyed it, they learned painfuly how much they need each other and are part of the same world and itīs woth it to sacrifice for the future instead of being left with nothing to save, nothing to preserve.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 06-19-2021 at 02:12 PM.
    what is man that you are mindful of him,
    and the son of man that you care for him? Psalm 8

  10. #715
    Cosmic Sandwich Metal Sphere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    Let’s be real, would humanity ever actually be acknowledged as anything other than screwups and bigots within the X-books? The likes of Reed Richards, Tony Stark, or T’Challa could do great things for humanity yet in the end nothing about humanity will ever be positively shown on the X-Men side of things.
    Correct, for marketing and brand identity reasons the luminaries of humanity will never have their inventions affect the world as a whole. As you said, Reed, T'Challa or Tony's inventions alone would eliminate any need for Krakoan drugs, energy resource issues, and a whole host of things. Of course, Marvel is wedded to the 'world outside your window' concept, and the X-Men franchise needs a writhing horde of hateful, neglectful monsters. The more interesting story would've been to have an arms race begin between the two species, where X&M try to eliminate humanity's advantages with mutant gifts and the species' just continues to outdo their "successors". Where you'd have the mutants desperately trying to stop competitors that are providing products that are as good, if not better than those offered by mutants. Terra Verde was ruined because Charles' beloved student decided Krakoa's products can have no legitimate competition. What if Reed makes a goddamn terraforming device and starts selling it? Or Orchis just switches the Sentinel swarm to terraforming mode? Or T'Challa leads Wakanda in providing unmatched medical care? Does Xavier allow Hank to start subverting all of this? In this scenario now you have the drama of how long before someone internally disagrees with these efforts, how long before external parties notice the pattern of behavior, changes to the world at large, and a world where Krakoa must now justify itself when the planet is not indebted to it.

    Especially since the backdrop behind all this is that humanity straight up advances beyond the capabilities of natural evolution, and the Trinity's efforts to stop or slow this down enough to get a win.

  11. #716

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    I don't think they'd do it if only because it'd literally make every single appearance of the X-Men non-canon. Like Brand New Day but with literally hundreds of characters. It'd also be very against Hickmans "put the toys back on the shelf" statement since it'd immediately fuck over whoever came after him with establishing the entire history of the franchise till that point

  12. #717
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    Shakespeare's best plays are his tragedies. And soap operas (which HEAVILY influenced comics) are full of protagonists who do bad things, and villains who choose to do good. This era of X-Men is refreshing in acknowledging that there are no true 'good guys' or 'bad guys', and that trauma has effects that span lifetimes. Some are more are less ethical than others, some more or less moral, but everyone approaches the world from the perspective of their experiences. I like the Icarus time loop comparison, and think that part helps really sell the whole thing, for me. It isnt going to end well, but there are a lot of great ideas and possibilities to play with, going forward. I'm enjoying the ride, both the super heroics and the philosophical stuff.
    That's a good viewpoint.

    I'm just concerned how it will all look in the end and what it will mean for the setting and figures going forward. Since unlike many Shakespeare plays (I'm aware of exceptions like Richard II. -> Henry V.), this world will continue and the stories of the characters will be continued too with these events having happend.

    Never the less, i hope the end will be enjoyable for readers like you and we can all enjoy what comes next.

  13. #718
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Sphere View Post
    Correct, for marketing and brand identity reasons the luminaries of humanity will never have their inventions affect the world as a whole. As you said, Reed, T'Challa or Tony's inventions alone would eliminate any need for Krakoan drugs, energy resource issues, and a whole host of things. Of course, Marvel is wedded to the 'world outside your window' concept, and the X-Men franchise needs a writhing horde of hateful, neglectful monsters. The more interesting story would've been to have an arms race begin between the two species, where X&M try to eliminate humanity's advantages with mutant gifts and the species' just continues to outdo their "successors". Where you'd have the mutants desperately trying to stop competitors that are providing products that are as good, if not better than those offered by mutants. Terra Verde was ruined because Charles' beloved student decided Krakoa's products can have no legitimate competition. What if Reed makes a goddamn terraforming device and starts selling it? Or Orchis just switches the Sentinel swarm to terraforming mode? Or T'Challa leads Wakanda in providing unmatched medical care? Does Xavier allow Hank to start subverting all of this? In this scenario now you have the drama of how long before someone internally disagrees with these efforts, how long before external parties notice the pattern of behavior, changes to the world at large, and a world where Krakoa must now justify itself when the planet is not indebted to it.

    Especially since the backdrop behind all this is that humanity straight up advances beyond the capabilities of natural evolution, and the Trinity's efforts to stop or slow this down enough to get a win.
    To be fair, I think Hank either has become dark beast again, or is infected by Sublime because thatīs not the Hank that was the beloved student of Charles, the respected academic or the nice friend of everybody else,I donīt think his story will end well at all in this era.

    Also if the mutant faction and the human faction of super heros shared their habilities with the rest of the world they could built a paradise on earth, the problem is of course status quo but also the division between each other and I think this will be the moral of the story at the end of Hickmanīs run and itīs why I like Planet Size so much, itīs the first time we see the characters really allow themselves to explore their powers to create something new instead of using them to destroy.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 06-19-2021 at 02:47 PM.
    what is man that you are mindful of him,
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  14. #719
    Cosmic Sandwich Metal Sphere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    To be fair, I think Hank either has become dark beast again, or is infected by Sublime because thatīs not the Hank that was the beloved student of Charles or the nice friend of everybody else,I donīt think his story will end well at all in this era.
    Yeah, I agree. I understand someone's morals drifting into awful places, but this drift is so severe (and his self-image so inflated) that it's unreal. If I was to wager a guess, I suspect Hank will be the "Sinister" of this timeline and causes things to go horribly wrong. Sinister's over there doing his thing as an entertaining misdirect. Emma's absolutely right in jumping on that, and hopefully she tries to stop him potentially doing that garbage going forward.

    Also if the mutant faction and the human faction of super heros shared their habilities with the rest of the world they could built a paradise on earth, the problem is of course status quo but also the division between each other and I think this will be the moral of the story at the end of Hickmanīs run and itīs why I like Planet Size so much, itīs the first time we see the characters really allow themselves to explore their powers to create something new instead of using them to destroy.
    A great coming together that accomplishes insane feats (like, say, obliterating the Phalanx and Dominions) before the conclusion of this run? Yeah, that sounds like the type of thing waiting at the end of a Hickman run. There's bits and pieces of this unity here and there, but it needs to become more frequent and organic. Notice how Magik's a professor at a non-mutant school of magic, and is a friend of Strange besides that. Dani's time as a Valkyrie has afforded her connections with other parts of the MU so seeing her catching up at the Gala was cool. Even just casual assists from the wider MU or organizations during typical X-Stuff would be good. Hell, you could create an entire run of how frustrated villains are in the face of that type of cooperation and camaraderie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ospfwildcard View Post
    dawn of x should be called prelude to x, its all been one long setup volume. the payoff will be in 3 or 4 years if this is a 5 year plan.






    all things considered, there will be no mention anywhere about this in any other marvel book.






    yes. they ignored 50 years of her history of having limitations.





    we are on the same page. this run cant have come from the same man that wrote hox/pox. it has editorial dictate all over it. dirty icecream and cake fingerprints.






    3. there was no build up to this issue. thats the problem.
    4. conveniently they were all on the council. would have been better if mags had been looking for just the right mutants over the course of multiple issues, maybe during x of swords. but nah, he pulled up to the council pickup window, ordered four mutant specials and a large diet coke.
    3. So we're just going to ignore that we have several issues building up to the big "firework" scene? Ok. Mars being colonized was foreshadowed all the way back in HoX/PoX so to say that there was no build up his disingenuous as best the only thing we didn't know what the fact that the Arraki mutants were being relocated as well.

    4.Of course they were on the Ring every mutants in the on the Great Ring is an Omega Level mutant that's literally the prerequisite once again this is the information we've known about it for months. The complaint that it was too "convenient" that on a mission exclusively for Omega Level mutants that Arakko the island that literally host MILLIONS of mutants wouldn't have at least a few Omega Level mutants whose abilities are ideal for terraforming a planet is ridiculously nitpicky. The population of earth mutants is a fraction of Arrakos and they already boast over 10 Omegas on their list.

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