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  1. #46
    Incredible Member superjosh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Jean was the "victim" and she doesnt care. If she can get over it and move on, why cant you?
    Oh god, it slipped my mind that this was a JEAN THING. Mass murder ok but even touching Jean is the most unforgivable of all offenses in the history of all time. Now I know why they’re up in arms.

  2. #47
    Incredible Member superjosh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    This is very different. For example mastermind is alive and it is a absurd that he part of the board members of the company representing mutants
    morality on x-men books got a lose worse with Krakoa, while they think they are superior to humans.
    Morality is not worse, it is different on Krakoa.

    But no, the situation is not very different. Emma is alive. She’s a leader amongst all aspects of mutantdom (as is Magneto). And she was also an accomplice and active participant in what Mastermind did to Jean.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    They just put a freaking rapist on the board members. This is unbelievable
    I mean, Selene is about to be on the board too.

    And she’s don’t far worse.

  4. #49
    Mugga, please. xhx23x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    This is a legit question. What should they do with someone like Mastermind? Should they continue to punish him for his crimes?
    I am view Krakoa's clean slate granting to former baddies more of an experiment than outright forgivness. They are trying to prove that in a world where Mutants don't have to deal with hatred and fear that forces them to survive, Mutants don't have any reason to do harm, especially to their own kind. I don't think this is a matter of if individuals are forgiven for their crime, but more is that they are trying to offer an honest do-over on life.

    I think Sabertooth was sacrificed at the beginning for give them an out if any of them were to do something now. That doesn't stop any of them from doing bad things, but obviously they can't do what they were doing before.

    I mean, with what they have shown so far, the Council could literally kill them off and resurrect them with a different personality, so it isn't a power-collection thing, they really want to see if they can make this Mutant nation angle work for all. which is what I find fascinating personally.

    This is essentially a redemption arc on a massive scale, and people often think that redemption arcs should be atonement arcs, and they are not the same thing. But Jason doesn't have to do that to be ally here. Angel is the closest to Jean, so only he would have a believable complaint but I can also see him brushing what Jason did off, given his own experiences with manipulation.

    Much like when the Maddie vote happen I would like to know Jean's thoughts on all of this but until she guest stars is not really relevant to this story.

  5. #50
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superjosh View Post
    Morality is not worse, it is different on Krakoa.

    But no, the situation is not very different. Emma is alive. She’s a leader amongst all aspects of mutantdom (as is Magneto). And she was also an accomplice and active participant in what Mastermind did to Jean.
    Krakoa is morally bankrupt,

    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    This is a legit question. What should they do with someone like Mastermind? Should they continue to punish him for his crimes?
    let him continue to be dead. he died, end of his story

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xhx23x View Post
    I am view Krakoa's clean slate granting to former baddies more of an experiment than outright forgivness. They are trying to prove that in a world where Mutants don't have to deal with hatred and fear that forces them to survive, Mutants don't have any reason to do harm, especially to their own kind. I don't think this is a matter of if individuals are forgiven for their crime, but more is that they are trying to offer an honest do-over on life.

    I think Sabertooth was sacrificed at the beginning for give them an out if any of them were to do something now. That doesn't stop any of them from doing bad things, but obviously they can't do what they were doing before.

    I mean, with what they have shown so far, the Council could literally kill them off and resurrect them with a different personality, so it isn't a power-collection thing, they really want to see if they can make this Mutant nation angle work for all. which is what I find fascinating personally.

    This is essentially a redemption arc on a massive scale, and people often think that redemption arcs should be atonement arcs, and they are not the same thing. But Jason doesn't have to do that to be ally here. Angel is the closest to Jean, so only he would have a believable complaint but I can also see him brushing what Jason did off, given his own experiences with manipulation.

    Much like when the Maddie vote happen I would like to know Jean's thoughts on all of this but until she guest stars is not really relevant to this story.
    Moira life 4(?) was a peaceful mutant paradise and the Sentinels went and blew it up. This is not about giving mutants a second chance, it is all about an endgame which involves a critical mass of mutants as well as enough power to win the arms race.

    In fact, it might just be about triggering the Extinction Gene.

  7. #52
    Mugga, please. xhx23x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    Moira life 4(?) was a peaceful mutant paradise and the Sentinels went and blew it up. This is not about giving mutants a second chance, it is all about an endgame which involves a critical mass of mutants as well as enough power to win the arms race.

    In fact, it might just be about triggering the Extinction Gene.
    Obviously Moira's plan is at work here, but we're still waiting for more info on that front.

    I'm arguing more from a social/personal perspective of why mutants would agree to this new world order. Why would people be okay with giving them a pass and work with them. From their perspective they are trying to build that peaceful mutant paradise, regardless of what Moira, Xavier and Magneto are doing backstage.

  8. #53
    Extraordinary Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xhx23x View Post
    Obviously Moira's plan is at work here, but we're still waiting for more info on that front.

    I'm arguing more from a social/personal perspective of why mutants would agree to this new world order. Why would people be okay with giving them a pass and work with them. From their perspective they are trying to build that peaceful mutant paradise, regardless of what Moira, Xavier and Magneto are doing backstage.
    Yes, that would be an argument. Do you think it would be so unanimous that the few dissenting opinions, aside from maybe Wolverine during the scene all the villains arrive, have only ever been for the purpose of other plots (e.g. the Hellions, Monet hating nazis)? Maybe that is a mystery in itself, or maybe the façade of unity is serving a story purpose that has been delayed, as Way of X hints at things not being so rosy.

  9. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by xhx23x View Post
    This is essentially a redemption arc on a massive scale, and people often think that redemption arcs should be atonement arcs, and they are not the same thing. But Jason doesn't have to do that to be ally here. Angel is the closest to Jean, so only he would have a believable complaint but I can also see him brushing what Jason did off, given his own experiences with manipulation.
    This brings up a good point. In the comic book world, these characters have experienced so many traumatic things, a mere fraction of which would break a real world person. So how they view certain crimes and experiences would be very different than how we would.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  10. #55
    Mugga, please. xhx23x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    Yes, that would be an argument. Do you think it would be so unanimous that the few dissenting opinions, aside from maybe Wolverine during the scene all the villains arrive, have only ever been for the purpose of other plots (e.g. the Hellions, Monet hating nazis)? Maybe that is a mystery in itself, or maybe the façade of unity is serving a story purpose that has been delayed, as Way of X hints at things not being so rosy.
    I do think it's definitely on purpose. People like to argue that some characters are being ooc, but to me no one's being that much different as they would be under any other writer that ignores certain charaterizations. But I do think that the lack of push back is very on purpose and Way of X, along with whatever Raven will be up to is sowing the seeds. I think that while I do love this era so far, they took too long to introduce the dissenting opinions on Krakoa, but I think we as readers, both the ones that like or dislike this new direction, are meant to question these things and wonder why there's no pushback. I do think there's a much larger thing going on, but I can also believe that some are just tired of how things were and are willing to let go of things for the promise of something hopeful.

  11. #56
    Mugga, please. xhx23x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    This brings up a good point. In the comic book world, these characters have experienced so many traumatic things, a mere fraction of which would break a real world person. So how they view certain crimes and experiences would be very different than how we would.
    Exactly. In the case of Jean in particular she was a higher being for a while, and holding Phoenix and Maddies memories for another while. We don't have a real framework to how she views that part of the Dark Phoenix Saga. It doesn't help that whenever its been brought up before the blame is place mostly on her (As people focused on her actions after she went Dark rather than what led there).

    Angel on the other hand has never had a good handle on his own person, and constantly lets these older men come into his life an influence him Cameron Hodge, Apocalypse and I guess now Jason.

  12. #57
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    This brings up a good point. In the comic book world, these characters have experienced so many traumatic things, a mere fraction of which would break a real world person. So how they view certain crimes and experiences would be very different than how we would.
    You mean without morals? This is pure nosense. Morality is not THAT flexible. Seeing mutants completely forget their own morality is so sad

    Mastermind already killed a inoccent human andpeople are dying on this hill.
    Last edited by Rang10; 06-16-2021 at 06:48 PM.

  13. #58
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    It's not because she forgave him (he was dying and the scene was cringe, itis not because people are dying that they need to be forgiven). Victims never really get over, it is a long proccess of cure, it is bad that the comics act like it wasn't big deal. No I shouldn't forgive him, tht is morally wrong
    He's a comic character so you dont need to forgive him but you are coming at this in defense of the victim and its a non-issue in the books. Jean has bigger fish to fry and isnt in a space where she even has to interact with Mastermind. I dont believe she has even done so this era

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    He's a comic character so you dont need to forgive him but you are coming at this in defense of the victim and its a non-issue in the books. Jean has bigger fish to fry and isnt in a space where she even has to interact with Mastermind. I dont believe she has even done so this era
    It's a non issue because comics fail to be moral compass. it fail to remember that he is a monster. he still a villains, he still a rapist, why you defend him?

  15. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by xhx23x View Post
    Exactly. In the case of Jean in particular she was a higher being for a while, and holding Phoenix and Maddies memories for another while. We don't have a real framework to how she views that part of the Dark Phoenix Saga. It doesn't help that whenever its been brought up before the blame is place mostly on her (As people focused on her actions after she went Dark rather than what led there).

    Angel on the other hand has never had a good handle on his own person, and constantly lets these older men come into his life an influence him Cameron Hodge, Apocalypse and I guess now Jason.
    And this is why I find these stories with villains so interesting. Great point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    You mean without morals? This is pure nosense. Morality is not THAT flexible. Seeing mutants completely forget their own morality is so sad

    Mastermind already killed a inoccent human andpeople are dying on this hill.
    Or people are interested in stories that create this kind of tension. No one has forgotten he's a villain. That's what intrigues me most about his inclusion here.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

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