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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    Yeah, one writer may have a story in mind involving heroes having a child but then another writer comes along and doesn't want to have to deal with everything that comes with it.
    In Sue's case they did the opposite and had Franklin inpregnate his mother with his dead sister. I don't know why they didn't just let Sue have another baby, because I found that really creepy.

  2. #92
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Valeria has such a convoluted background. If I have this right...when Sue miscarried the soul of the child was taken by Franklin and Roma to Haven and she stayed there in one form or another until the Abraxas crisis.





    After the Heroes Reborn/Return era, Valeria von Doom "time danced" from her timeline into the Fantastic Four's timeline. The Fantastic Four got a peak at her family when they were on the Moon. Valeria von Doom disappears when Reed used the Ultimate Nullifier to end the threat from Abraxas and then that's when we see Sue is pregnant. I still think the "soul" of Valeria von Doom might be a component of Valeria Richards along with the child miscarried earlier. She has almost an inborn affinity for Victor.



  3. #93
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Val 100% should have been the third child instead of this convoluted mess.
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  4. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Valeria has such a convoluted background. If I have this right...when Sue miscarried the soul of the child was taken by Franklin and Roma to Haven and she stayed there in one form or another until the Abraxas crisis.





    After the Heroes Reborn/Return era, Valeria von Doom "time danced" from her timeline into the Fantastic Four's timeline. The Fantastic Four got a peak at her family when they were on the Moon. Valeria von Doom disappears when Reed used the Ultimate Nullifier to end the threat from Abraxas and then that's when we see Sue is pregnant. I still think the "soul" of Valeria von Doom might be a component of Valeria Richards along with the child miscarried earlier. She has almost an inborn affinity for Victor.


    I certainly see some sort of Doom/Valeria connection. To be honest, I like to see val with a bit of that streak in her. I so want her conscience to be torn between reed as the angel on one shoulder and Doom as the devil on the other. As for the second page, Sue's kinda Power Girling out there, isn't she?
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  5. #95
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    I just accept it as somehow wall the time travel and "reboots" made it so she never miscarried which is why the age gap between Franklin and Valaria seems a lot smaller than it should be.

  6. #96

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    I'm not a fan of the third child option. If Reed and Sue tries again after the second child didn't make it, there would be a sense of sadness which MAY make for emotional storytelling, but it's too dark IMO for the FF. Franklin changed history somehow and the baby made it. Stuff like this there is no real life facsimile to draw on, so details would be pulled out of the writer's ass. The kid recreated the freaking multiverse. Bringing his little sister back to life seems pretty mundane next to that.
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  7. #97
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    I'm not a fan of the third child option. If Reed and Sue tries again after the second child didn't make it, there would be a sense of sadness which MAY make for emotional storytelling, but it's too dark IMO for the FF. Franklin changed history somehow and the baby made it. Stuff like this there is no real life facsimile to draw on, so details would be pulled out of the writer's ass. The kid recreated the freaking multiverse. Bringing his little sister back to life seems pretty mundane next to that.
    It's "the world outside your window" and I think tragic, human things like this should happen of treated with respect and in a delicate way. The story of Sue's miscarriage was done incredibly well and there was no need to change it.

    There should be dark times in the FF. Not everything should have a happy ending or tied up neatly in a bow. Even the original run had dark moments, like the entire situation with Sue and Johnny's father.
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    The added bonus of this issue's depiction of Johnny is that it makes him a vapid dipshit who cannot regard the feelings of others and has zero self-control. I know we've beaten the bones of the dead horse into a fine powder, but this issue cements it the most.



    Having LGBT representation be with a guy this pathetically selfish and impulse driven is not exactly the representation I want to see in media.
    are you implying that this is not the correct way to write johnny
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  9. #99
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    The added bonus of this issue's depiction of Johnny is that it makes him a vapid dipshit who cannot regard the feelings of others and has zero self-control. I know we've beaten the bones of the dead horse into a fine powder, but this issue cements it the most.



    Having LGBT representation be with a guy this pathetically selfish and impulse driven is not exactly the representation I want to see in media.
    Representation should encompass a range of people with different personalities, goals, and opinions. Good representation does not mean the person needs to be this perfect individual, no one is. The sanitization of LGBT+ characters in the big two comics is a problem as it does not make them feel like actual people. So having LGBT+ heroes with flaws like anyone else is not a problem.
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  10. #100
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    If comic books were not just Soap Operas for comic fans, it would be something.

    But baby dramas, missing, mysterious, kidnapped, who's-the-daddy, etc, etc, are standard.

    Heroes don't just fight, they have to have character interactions.

    But I think they got enough drama out of the various stories with Val.

    I'm going to head canon that Valeria has some spiritual or magical link to Victor, but I would never believe

    she is not Reed's daughter.
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    I came for Kate, I stayed for Bette Love Fantastic Four, Namor, Batwoman, Dr.Strange.... i love them all

  11. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    It's "the world outside your window" and I think tragic, human things like this should happen of treated with respect and in a delicate way. The story of Sue's miscarriage was done incredibly well and there was no need to change it.

    There should be dark times in the FF. Not everything should have a happy ending or tied up neatly in a bow. Even the original run had dark moments, like the entire situation with Sue and Johnny's father.
    I get it and understand the drama. I can accept it, but it's a depth of despair and tragedy I really would rather not see. I should rephrase my feelings as stating I dislike as opposed to saying it doesn't belong. It's the death of children that crosses that personal line for me.
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  12. #102
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    I think weddings sort of dredge up past unresolved issues in a very explosive way. Does this mean the wedding is off? When Victor uses words like “Dishonours the house of Doom”, it really looks like Victorious’ little revelation is going to disturb her shot at happiness. I don’t think Victor is going for Victor and Victorious after this. I thought, maybe Vic would settle for a quiet registration nuptial, but it really looks like Victor is losing it here, and he really was like in a nice place until now.

    Maybe Reed, as best man, takes Victor aside somewhere and gives him the stern lecture about life isn’t always so smooth in marriage. Be a man. Go in there and marry the girl. Victor will be all, But look what she’s done. And Reed would be, Look in the mirror and tell me you haven’t done worse.
    Last edited by jackolover; 06-24-2021 at 11:34 PM.

  13. #103
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    It does seem like when Doom gets closer to "normal" (normal for him at least) as in Infamous Iron Man, another writer will drag him back into the drama of being supervillainous like Slott did right after that series ended and Bendis went to DC. Obviously Marvel wants to keep him that way, much like they seem to going that direction sometimes with Magneto.

  14. #104
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    It does seem like when Doom gets closer to "normal" (normal for him at least) as in Infamous Iron Man, another writer will drag him back into the drama of being supervillainous like Slott did right after that series ended and Bendis went to DC. Obviously Marvel wants to keep him that way, much like they seem to going that direction sometimes with Magneto.
    I wish you weren’t right.

  15. #105
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Societal notions. Marriage and many 'customs' are societal creations, informed over centuries by "holy writ" and other cultures customs.

    In many parts of the world, men of any age, can marry "women" as young as 9, possibly.

    And that is why I care one fig for the whole "They shouldn't be sleeping or wanting to sleep with a married woman"

    What do I think when I constantly see this?
    That most men, and probably a lot of women feel that "women belong to men, the man they're married to"

    And that will always be rubbish to me. Men or women, people, belong to themselves. But society supports these other concepts, because society just wants to control as many people as possible.
    It is a very old but true saying, that if you control people's sexuality, you control them, and we certainly see that with the discrimination and prohibition against gay/trans and others for that.

    People shouldn't do that/those things.
    Well, people don't really have super strength or the ability to blast beams for their eyes.

    But one thing I know is that sex, attraction happens, despite societal laws or norms.
    I'm wondering if some people have issues because of their own / background issues with marriage and loyalty.
    I am sorry for that, but I will still believe that society is the cause of this in some manner. It tries to divert natural relationships with some sort of stricture... that mostly serves society in whatever form: capitalism or others.
    One of my personal favorite heroes is Mary Wollstonecraft - you know, the mother of
    Mary Shelley, who wrote Frankenstein.
    She is best known as one of the main proponents of :[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_love"].

    And that is all I wish to say. Sue, gives in to societal notions when a big part of her heart would be with Namor. Namor, coming from an ancient culture that is Pagan or non-christian, may more likely be, obviously be, poly amorous. Like most modern Pagans.
    Like me.
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