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  1. #46
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Namor with the perfect response...rates right up there with Doom laughing at the Krakoa Gala.
    That was indeed perfect. Especially given the last line Doom delivered when Namor asked for help with Thanos and Cabal. "Doom is no man's second choice!" LOL!
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  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAS View Post
    There's no need for a gender or sexual preferences lecture. We're talking about a fictional character that's been around for 60 years. In those 60 years there was never a hint of bisexuality until one mostly forgettable storyline in the last decade that you want to hang your hat on.

    I have no problem creating and developing multicultural, multi ethnic and multi gendered characters and all their varying relationships. What I have a problem with is shippers who see same-sex characters having a close relationship or interaction and immediately put them in a wish list of relationships.

    You can look no further than a recent panel from the preview to the new X-Men book, where Rogue catches Polaris to see my point. Both Rogue and Polaris have always been treated as heterosexual, but a couple posts in the thread on the X-Men board view that one image as an indication that the two were going to get it on.

    And truthfully, it really is incumbent on the editors to ensure some sort of character integrity as these books are published.
    I'm not a shipper.

    Also, you're right he was created 60 years ago. 50 of which it was allowed to deviate from the "norm" of being straight. Its not shocking that some may have the view that if Johnny was created today he might not be straight. Plus some of his interactions over the years could have been interpreted as not being 100% heterosexual. Because like you said, this is fiction. Which opens itself up towards interpretation.

    Plus him being bi or pan does no damage to the characters integrity. Literally all of his past relationships would remain the same. If he was made gay then all his past relationships would be viewed in a different light, like Icemans, but being bi/pan leaves most of his past romantic relationships unchanged.

    So I honestly don't see the issue. It give representation to an underrepresented demographic while barely changing the character. Honestly, what about Johnny would be negatively impacted? What would be changed besides him being attracted to a guy every now and then? I don't see the problem.
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  3. #48
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAS View Post
    The best thing to happen is for that whole situation to go away. Daken has been shown to manipulate peoples feelings including sexual attraction through pheromones. He's no different than Starfox, so his actions could be easily explained away.

    Johnny is historically attracted to and pursuing women. I would say his actions towards going after the girlfriend of the month are a direct result of abandonment issues brought on by first Crystal, and then Frankie. It probably doesn't help that his mother was killed and his father was jailed for it when he was at a young age.
    What actions are you talking about? If it's the cheating from this arc, that's just the writer. Johnny has been loyal in all of his major relationships and those only ended due to the the partner's actions or events out of his control.

    Dorrie - couldn't handle the superhero crap
    Medusa - got her memories back and was already betrothed
    Crystal - left because she would've died; started another relationship with Quicksilver
    Alicia - was Lyja
    Lyja - "killed" by Onslaught; chick turned evil
    Namorita - new writer
    Daria - got close Scott Lang

    Also I don't know why people are using the Daken interactions as proof that Johnny's bi. If pheromone manipulation was involved, it doesn't count. We already went over this with Starfox. You can't use that just because it supports yor "bi" theory and then say "I ain't a shipper, bruv".
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  4. #49
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    What actions are you talking about? If it's the cheating from this arc, that's just the writer. Johnny has been loyal in all of his major relationships and those only ended due to the the partner's actions or events out of his control.

    Dorrie - couldn't handle the superhero crap
    Medusa - got her memories back and was already betrothed
    Crystal - left because she would've died; started another relationship with Quicksilver
    Alicia - was Lyja
    Lyja - "killed" by Onslaught; chick turned evil
    Namorita - new writer
    Daria - got close Scott Lang

    Also I don't know why people are using the Daken interactions as proof that Johnny's bi. If pheromone manipulation was involved, it doesn't count. We already went over this with Starfox. You can't use that just because it supports yor "bi" theory and then say "I ain't a shipper, bruv".
    I can say whatever I want.
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  5. #50
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    I was just re-reading parts 1 and 2 for clues and three setups caught my eye:

    1. The big fight in part 1 in which Johnny chooses to help another woman, feels like a setup for a similar scene in part 3 in which he chooses to help Sky and therefore showing his dedication. Next scene they reconcile and live happily ever after ....

    2. Showing us that Alicia has a perfect sculpture of Doom then demonstrating her power on Lyja, then telling us in part 2 that she is staying behind in New York. Feels like Alicia is going to use her power on Doom. Maybe she's the reason he's in space now, she forced him to abdicate the thrown for a while or something. Would also be a big plot for a Doom returns story next year.

    3. Zora saying "I didn't know he planned this". Implying it's a planned trap, but how would she know? Maybe a Doom manipulated Zora (and Johnny) twist is coming. Basically taking any blame from Zora and Johnny in process, would tie in with the Johnny/Sky story and keep Zora as Latverian ruler possibly for the duration of Doom in space story

    Maybe i missed something but i think that's the basic structure for the story. Still not sure what Namor and Black Panther bring to the story, honestly. Just wedding guest for a few gags and bodies for the big fight, i suppose.

  6. #51
    Spectacular Member Doom'nGloom's Avatar
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    I absolutely despise the trope of 2 sworn enemies trying making peace but then something about one sides previous actions come up and all goes to hell. The only highlight of the issue for me is Namor's reaction to Zora's confession.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    When was that revealed? Because the story about Franklin Storm was in Fantastic Four #32 and published November of 1964
    Flash:Rebirth (2009). Both Barry's parents were alive and well for most of his publishing history. They saw him get married to Iris and then almost hitched to Fiona Webb before Barry snapped Thrawns neck to prevent him pulling another Iris on her.

    The new set up was concocted by Geoff John's to give Barry some trauma in his past. A reason why he became such a dedicated forensics scientist. Also something to strengthen his ties to Batman (both bonding over investigational techniques) and with Hal Jordan (Space Cop).

    So Fantastic Four definitely did it first.

  8. #53
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    So is Latveria still going to support Doom after this incident.

    I've read a lot of bad FF storylines but this one really takes the cake.

    This is the equivalent of William destroying the Abbey after being told Kate Middleton cheated on him with Harry.

  9. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doom'nGloom View Post
    I absolutely despise the trope of 2 sworn enemies trying making peace but then something about one sides previous actions come up and all goes to hell. The only highlight of the issue for me is Namor's reaction to Zora's confession.
    It was an amazingly expected and unoriginal development. The worst part was the damage done to the Zora character who was shaping up to be one of Slott's more popular successes on this run. Will she disappear? Will she even survive? She certainly won't become the second voice in the government of Latveria she could have been.
    Why yes, I do enjoy hearing myself talk. it is very kind of you to notice>

  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Also I don't know why people are using the Daken interactions as proof that Johnny's bi. If pheromone manipulation was involved, it doesn't count. We already went over this with Starfox. You can't use that just because it supports yor "bi" theory and then say "I ain't a shipper, bruv".
    Proof? No, but it definitely is evidence backing the speculation. My understanding is Daken's power pushes people in a direction they might have taken. That is, Daken couldn't seduce a totally straight man, or lesbian woman but only people who have some sexual interest in a male. Is Johnny bi? Maybe, but there's nothing in canon. As to whether fans want him to be, well, this is a fictitious comic book superhero and we arecertainly able to have differing opinions.
    Why yes, I do enjoy hearing myself talk. it is very kind of you to notice>

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    What actions are you talking about? If it's the cheating from this arc, that's just the writer. Johnny has been loyal in all of his major relationships and those only ended due to the the partner's actions or events out of his control.

    Dorrie - couldn't handle the superhero crap
    Medusa - got her memories back and was already betrothed
    Crystal - left because she would've died; started another relationship with Quicksilver
    Alicia - was Lyja
    Lyja - "killed" by Onslaught; chick turned evil
    Namorita - new writer
    Daria - got close Scott Lang

    Also I don't know why people are using the Daken interactions as proof that Johnny's bi. If pheromone manipulation was involved, it doesn't count. We already went over this with Starfox. You can't use that just because it supports yor "bi" theory and then say "I ain't a shipper, bruv".
    I wasn't talking about the cheating from this arc - That's just Slott trashing Johnny's character.

    I was more referring to various writers in the last say 10-15 years that revert Johnny to the irresponsible man-child and introducing some random model/actress flavor of the month. We know from past stories that Johnny has more depth and heart than that.

    I have always felt that Johnny has played the part of free wheeling showboat to cover his fears letting down his family and friends, and even worse, losing control of his powers and hurting people.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doom'nGloom View Post
    I absolutely despise the trope of 2 sworn enemies trying making peace but then something about one sides previous actions come up and all goes to hell. The only highlight of the issue for me is Namor's reaction to Zora's confession.
    The reaction page was the clear highlight of the issue.

  13. #58
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magmaster12 View Post
    So is Latveria still going to support Doom after this incident.

    I've read a lot of bad FF storylines but this one really takes the cake.

    This is the equivalent of William destroying the Abbey after being told Kate Middleton cheated on him with Harry.
    Latverians have a history of forgetting about some of the self inflicted destruction on the country. But everything usually gets fixed again pretty quickly. It probably keeps unemployment low.





    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    It was an amazingly expected and unoriginal development. The worst part was the damage done to the Zora character who was shaping up to be one of Slott's more popular successes on this run. Will she disappear? Will she even survive? She certainly won't become the second voice in the government of Latveria she could have been.
    Yes, I think this harms her character quite a lot. And more important, it will destroy Doom's trust in her. IMO Cantwell is a better "caretaker" of her character.



  14. #59
    Mighty Member zinderel's Avatar
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    So, I haven't bought an issue of this comic since the Franklin Fiasco of Xv4 and the whole 'psych, you never were a mutant and literally everyone you ever met was wrong or lying' narrative being introduced. But I follow it out of curiosity, and read through it on racks to see if it improves, as I like the characters, and usually the writer.

    This felt - and this isnt a compliment - like a throwback to the Golden Age, in terms of all the tropes on display and the general...fluffiness of it all. All tension is lost because it all feels so...goofy and meaningless, when it isnt just...mean.

    I don't hate Slott, and I enjoyed the hell out of his run on Spider-Man, but I'm just...not able to get into his F4. Between the forced Johnny/Sky pairing that has made Johnny look worse than I think hes ever looked as a person, the aformentioned Franklin mess, the whole team being low-key (and sometimes openly) racist against mutants suddenly despite working with them happily in the past, and the seeming lack of any sort of plot through line or end goal in mind other than 'screw mutants, we're science, Johnny is a terrible person, Sue is a Karen now who WILL speak to the manager of Krakoa, Reed emotionally abuses and does genetic experiments on his children, Doom is a massive threat no wait hes a joke no wait hes a threat no wait hes a joke...

    And even worse, I just can't seem to remember anything from previous issues OTHER than the things I listed...and its disappointing. Wasnt there some new cosmic threat guy? Cormorant or something? Whatever happened to him? Has anything of value been done with the 'Better than the crummy mutant plant gates' portal they now conveniently have? Is there a POINT to Sky other than making Johnny less likeable?

    Complaints aside. I DO like Ben and Alicia raising the Kree and Skrull brats and trying to do right by them, though the intimations that Alicia may follow in her father's footsteps and go evil are...not so great. But I guess time will tell. Maybe, when it's over and I reread it, it'll be better. It'll make sense. But man...I went from excited to have them back post-Secret Wars to wishing the F4 was still off being demigods rather than doing...whatever they're doing since they returned...
    Last edited by zinderel; 06-19-2021 at 12:01 PM.

  15. #60
    Incredible Member The BaRoN's Avatar
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    Slott writes like someone pretending to be in the 60s

    It’s corny, cringe and stupid.

    This whole run has been a mess and I hope we get a new team soon because even Silva is phoning in his art on this compared to his xmen work, which is a shame because I love his art but it feels like he doesn’t want to be on this book.

    Give us Stegman or Booth on art, no idea who’s free to write.

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