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  1. #1
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    Default Martial Artists at the Tournament of Power

    This rumble type amuses me again. So, in the ToP - flight was banned unless you had wings. So the Zenos come up with this.

    No powers - everyone is set to an ability level based on a normal person of their species but allowed martial arts training - as long as it does not produce energy projection, time tricks, invisibility,etc. or anything outside of blows and kicks, grappling, chokes and the like. No one is invulnerable but being as tough as a normal member of your race is OK.

    Here's my team. How do they do? Now Karate Kid is debatable beyond most but he's said not to have powers , just training. Now - are martial arts weapons allowed, I'm mixed on this but certainly no firearms, ray guns, bombs, grenades, etc. If you want batarangs, normal swords, ok.

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  2. #2
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    I'm... confused here?

    How are we meant to argue this?

    Like, Jiren is the only member of his race we've ever seen and he's an unstoppable mountain of power. How do we speculate about his abilities? Goku has like 50 years of martial arts experience but his overall fighting style is built around both energy projection, passive chi manipulation and his more esoteric tricks.

    Can he had ultra instinct? It's technically just a state that induces hyper awareness and energy efficiency?

    What about the completely non-human fighters in the ToP, like the goop guy? Is he still a goop guy? Can Piccolo still regenerate as that is product of his physiology rather than anything trained.

    Also, the presence of Karate Kid renders the rest of his team entirely superfluous to outcome of his match given how wildly he dwarfs them in stats so...

    Yeah, not sure where to even start with this.
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  3. #3
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    Well, to try to clarify - I was trying to make it just physical combat without energy projection and superspeed at extreme levels. You can be tough but not Kryptonian like invulnerability.

    I grant you it isn't clear cut. Karate Kid is top of the 'non' super but trained type. Ultra Instinct would be ok - just no energy projection.

  4. #4
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Smith View Post
    Well, to try to clarify - I was trying to make it just physical combat without energy projection and superspeed at extreme levels. You can be tough but not Kryptonian like invulnerability.

    I grant you it isn't clear cut. Karate Kid is top of the 'non' super but trained type. Ultra Instinct would be ok - just no energy projection.
    Okay, so do speed, strength, durability and reflexes gained through 'training' count?

    If Ultra Instinct is okay, which is directly tied to chi manipulation, are other chi-based physical tricks in.

    Because, if so, then all of the martial artists get punted out in the opening blitz. Karate Kid potentially wins the whole thing.
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    Karate Kid vs Ultra Instinct would be amusing.It'll be two guys standing still for however long only for one of them to suddenly collapse.

    When one of them inevitably collapses the other will simply remark that they couldn't dodge 'such and such' a technique after they figured out the pattern of their dodging.

    ... but really, one of them probably just fell asleep
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

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  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Smith View Post
    Well, to try to clarify - I was trying to make it just physical combat without energy projection and superspeed at extreme levels. You can be tough but not Kryptonian like invulnerability.

    I grant you it isn't clear cut. Karate Kid is top of the 'non' super but trained type. Ultra Instinct would be ok - just no energy projection.
    It's weird, too, because from the Kryptonian perspective, they're not really all that weirdly tough, they're just extremely, godly tough compared to humans. To them, *we're* the outliers (Aquaman made a similar observation -- humans are the weird ones for not being able to breathe underwater, especially since the planet's surface is 70% water. Breathing underwater should come naturally to anyone from his perspetive.). For Saiyans to be a planet full of tough warriors, their abilities aren't really considered as "powers" per se, just something they can do naturally like a human with opposable thumbs.
    Last edited by Cyke; 06-18-2021 at 01:38 PM.

  7. #7
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    It's weird, too, because from the Kryptonian perspective, they're not really all that weirdly tough, they're just extremely, godly tough compared to humans. To them, *we're* the outliers (Aquaman made a similar observation -- humans are the weird ones for not being able to breathe underwater, especially since the planet's surface is 70% water. Breathing underwater should come naturally to anyone from his perspetive.). For Saiyans to be a planet full of tough warriors, their abilities aren't really considered as "powers" per se, just something they can do naturally like a human with opposable thumbs.
    Except, thanks to the Super Broly movie, not all Saiyans are warriors. Like, flying, shooting energy blasts, etc. There were some that were simply unable to do that. They would be mechanics, pilots, or cut meat (like Goku's mother).

  8. #8
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Except, thanks to the Super Broly movie, not all Saiyans are warriors. Like, flying, shooting energy blasts, etc. There were some that were simply unable to do that. They would be mechanics, pilots, or cut meat (like Goku's mother).
    But Saiyans overall -- regardless of occupation -- tend to be stronger and tougher than humans by default, even as children, thanks to Planet Vegeta having 10x Earth's gravity. It's perfectly natural for them and not exceptional for them to be considered superhuman compared to Earthlings, so those common traits aren't special powers per se, simply their natural abilities.

    I mean, not all Atlanteans are of royal blood like Aquaman. Not all of them have magic or control over water or aquamarine telepathy. Yet they are all tougher than humans and can breathe water all the same. It's a bit myopic to focus on the job title in this case.
    Last edited by Cyke; 06-19-2021 at 02:35 AM.

  9. #9
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Given Karate Kid could beat up his entire team in the OP without breaking a sweat, I'm not sure what the point is. <-- Not being snarky, just noting that 'Val + plus a bunch of people who are ants to him = Val', really).

    Lemme think.

    Okay, my team is Karate Kid and Remo Williams.

    Remo Williams is dirt compared to Karate Kid, but like KK, he murders everyone not named Val Armorr in the OP, solo. Takes him a little longer, maybe.

    Then it's Karate Kid versus Karate Kid plus Remo Williams. Remo really doesn't add a whole lot to his side, because Val still kicks his ass, but I think he might be able to provide a distraction, which means the team has a slightly better chance of winning.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 06-21-2021 at 09:08 AM.
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  10. #10
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    So we think, despite the confusion, KK might win the tournament?

  11. #11
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Smith View Post
    So we think, despite the confusion, KK might win the tournament?
    Depends on how hard you want to nerf the ToP crowd with the "natural power only," stipulation.

    If you nerf them too much then KK can just outskill them with his library of pretty bullshit feats. If they are un-nerfed and we are reading their physicality in any way close to the "universe sundering power," they normally hold, then they are out of KKs league.

    He can handle Kryptonian ballpark guys pretty easily while weakened himself but Jiren and his ilk are considerably beyond that.
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  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Depends on how hard you want to nerf the ToP crowd with the "natural power only," stipulation.

    If you nerf them too much then KK can just outskill them with his library of pretty bullshit feats. If they are un-nerfed and we are reading their physicality in any way close to the "universe sundering power," they normally hold, then they are out of KKs league.

    He can handle Kryptonian ballpark guys pretty easily while weakened himself but Jiren and his ilk are considerably beyond that.
    So, Hit, Kefla, Vegeta, Goku, Toppo, Jiren, Gohan, 17, and Freeza then? Piccolo, maybe. He trains, but I'm not sure where exactly to put him.

  13. #13
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    So, Hit, Kefla, Vegeta, Goku, Toppo, Jiren, Gohan, 17, and Freeza then? Piccolo, maybe. He trains, but I'm not sure where exactly to put him.
    These are the names in the mix but, as I said above, it really depends how hard the OP wants to nerf them.
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    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    ...I can see I was completely confused as to the setting of this Rumble.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  15. #15
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    I see the confusion. I was trying to test physical martial arts skills without too much superpowers like energy projection. I now see that is impossible to do as many have inherent physical abilities.

    If I said, everyone gets turned to base human, physically fit to a maximum peak human (or whatever they are) but with their knowledge of classical martial arts, with holds, grappling, kicks and blows - does that help?

    Now some of them are bigger and some are machines. That is a confounding set of variables.

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