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  1. #16
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    This is always the issue when one tries to break fighting skill down into what real-world people consider fighting skill. The issue is that in Fiction, 'Learned Fighting Skill' can cover an awful lot more territory.

    - Stat boosts due to chi/ki/whatever, or even just 'because they're even more skilled';
    - All kinds of energy blasts and other weirdness;
    - Hitting impossibly hard;
    - Esoteric stuff like releasing poisons from the body;
    - Cutting through stuff with one's finger because of 'skill';
    - Reading body language to an impossible degree;
    - Time travel fighting

    We could go on and on.

    Basically, one might argue that pure humans from DBZ (like Krillin) aren't terribly skilled because they throw punches and kicks and the occasional grapple kind of thing, whereas in comics we see people like Batman 'hitting pressure points that paralyze people'...but really, does that make sense? Krillin's 'skill' and 'training' not only allow him to move faster and faster through the series, and hit hard enough to make comic book martial artists explode into wet goo, but his 'skill and training' also allow him to throw a disk forged out of his own life force that cuts basically anything. What are pressure points to that? And it's a double standard, as 'comic book pressure points' are about as real as tossing around chi blasts.

    If we start saying 'Well, they can't use the energy projection that is part and parcel of their martial arts training', is that logical when comparing 'skill', when in their universe, with the capabilities of beings in their universe, that is an actual yardstick for their skill?

    I get the idea - to discern who is actually better at delivering physical strikes, defending against such, initiating grapples without resorting to brute power, etc.

    But that's a metric of 'skill' that's based on real-world ideas of such, and none of these people - not the comic characters, not the DBZ characters, nobody - have real-world skill. If we start disallowing magic energy projection, we should probably also disallow stuff like 'find weak points' based on skill', and 'magic pressure points', and 'hits waaaaaay above their weight class based on skill', and 'impossibly faster than a human being based on skill', and, and...

    ...and it starts getting really hard to do any kind of comparison, because the characters can no longer actually fight as they normally do. Everyone is gimped.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 06-21-2021 at 10:50 AM.
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  2. #17
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Smith View Post
    I see the confusion. I was trying to test physical martial arts skills without too much superpowers like energy projection. I now see that is impossible to do as many have inherent physical abilities.

    If I said, everyone gets turned to base human, physically fit to a maximum peak human (or whatever they are) but with their knowledge of classical martial arts, with holds, grappling, kicks and blows - does that help?

    Now some of them are bigger and some are machines. That is a confounding set of variables.
    In that case, Karate Kid wins effortlessly because his "knowledge of martial arts," lets him magically dismember Kryptonian adjacent guys, dodge speed force lightning and reverse earthquakes by stomping.

    All skill, allegedly.

    And, if you take out Karate Kid then Cassandra Cain or Cap or Deathstroke win because they are all comfortably beyond peak human.

    We have no conception of how Goku and co do outside of their normal abilities because conventional martial arts stopped being relevant to him when he was in his twenties.
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  3. #18
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Sharp making the same point, at greater length but still somehow posting before me, that's the difference between Peak Human and Metahuman. ~_~
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  4. #19
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Sharp making the same point, at greater length but still somehow posting before me, that's the difference between Peak Human and Metahuman. ~_~
    I keep telling you kids - it's just timing and lack of hesitation, not raw speed. ^_^
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  5. #20
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    I keep telling you kids - it's just timing and lack of hesitation, not raw speed. ^_^
    Sharp Armorr
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

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  6. #21
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    Sharp Armorr
    ....

    That guy has raw speed as well. :)
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  7. #22
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    So in conclusion Vegeta breaks the 4th wall and slaps around the OP for trying to rig the TOP in his team’s favor.

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post

    And, if you take out Karate Kid then Cassandra Cain or Cap or Deathstroke win because they are all comfortably beyond peak human.

    We have no conception of how Goku and co do outside of their normal abilities because conventional martial arts stopped being relevant to him when he was in his twenties.
    Thing is, what we do have put them at varying levels of street level+, and by the standards of the OP, a level of skill that I'd say would be more in line with Shiva, or at the peak(like with Goku), Mantis.

    We have Yamcha at the beginning of the series able to hit wellllllll above his normal hitting power via the technique, Wolf Fang Fist. With Nam we have someone with absolutely zero knowledge in Ki usage display feats of outright superhuman capabilities welllllll beyond Batman, based purely on his skill as a martial artist. And while we don't know what fighting styles they know or are experienced in, we did see Roshi utilize drunken boxing, with Kid Goku responding with a "crazy monkey fist" style.

    Even in the more modern stuff from Z to Super we have characters figuring out techniques on the fly, to Goku figuring out how to absorb universe shaking shockwaves within his body in just a few cosmic fist bumps.

    My point is, by the OP standards, I see Val soloing everyone save maybe a UI Goku(provided its allowed), but I wouldn't say the others would manage a clean sweep without him as I do not see them capable going toe to toe with the DB martial artists in either physical capabilities, or h2h skill.
    Last edited by Cody; 06-22-2021 at 11:03 AM.
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