Mutant power classification pls

[Sutekh]

An omega was an omega from birth and would always be an omega. You cannot train to become omega, it's something you are either born with or you aren't. You cannot have omega potential that simply means you are omega as omega is literally omega potential.

Hogwash. Most mutants don't even have powers until puberty. And pre-Phoenix, Jean struggled to telekinetically lift more than she could lift with her body. (She's come a long way, baby!) Iceman started out *throwing snowballs at people.* Now he transmutes his body into ice, and creates glaciers out of thin air!

*Many* mutants develop power over time, including omegas. Proteus' power has grown immensely from his early beginnings when he had a thirty foot range, and burned himself out and killed the body he was using in ten minutes of exerting his power. Neither of those things are true now!

[Grunty]

"Beyond Omega" makes no sense and is flawed writing from "the lost years" era. It's shock value power creep nonsense.

(...)

AT BEST, it's a poor way of describing a mutant who is currently registering at or near peak expectations of their power potential.

Classification of any kind tends to be problematic, as developments, status quos, definitions, understandings, boundaries, restrictions, etc. tend to shift over time, leading to the need of constant re-examinations and agreement on what is actualy what.

And while there are certain static "groundwork" classifications, which everyone can agree on, the moment you go into subcategories things become subjective and therefor a problem (not to forget the issue of abusing classifications for personal views and ideologies).

One of them is that two opposing groups will often form around types of classifications. Those who take them as gospel and become adamant in enforcing them as what they see as the status quo without room for change and those who see them as restrictions and challenge them.

Meanwhile most people will be somewhere in the middle, prefering a certain amount of foundation to better understand the world and be able to refer to things, while also open to changes in the system.

For example. Everyone can agree that there is a type of animal we refer to as "bird" but then there might be animals who are looking a lot like birds but are different to them, perhaps in terms of genetics or just in how they look and behave.
So most people will be open in accepting them as "not bird, but bird like" once they are informed of the difference or can figure it out themself. Because they agree on the groundwork category of "bird" as in feathered animals on two legs with wings and a beak.

But then there will be those insisting on it being a bird because it fits the common definition of what a bird should look like regardless of newer evidence or informations, while others will insist it on it not being a bird and dismiss the very notion of something being "bird like" because they insist on things needing to fit into correct classifications, even if these classifications can change.

And this gets more complicated when we go into the subject of "created" objects like tools, vehicles, art-forms and so on, because these are directly in the hand of human society and culture to shape, alter and define.

Just look at military naval vessels and how their classifications changed over time as technologies and tactics changed, but old terminology remained. Or look no further than music and the ever increasing number of sub-genres people like to create to the point of open mockery for the practics. Like Brütal Legends "Second Wave of American Tween Melodic Rap Metalcore" for example.

But this can go even worse when it comes to fictional universes, as these are not even subject to change by real world influences, but are entirely in the hand of people and their imagination, often conflicting ones.

Because now God A. can come in and say "Birds exist" and they do, which every reader can agree on makes sense.
But then God B. comes in and says "But birds come in variants alpha to omega, because i want my omega birds to be more special" and so they are and everyone refers to alpha to omega birds, but readers wonder who is what.
But then God C. comes in and declares there are "post omega birds" because they want their new type of characters to be more special than special and then they exist, but readers are now even more confused.
But then God D. comes in and declares "no more birds" and they are all gone, but the readers knew birds existed because they can show the old issues where they did.
But then God E. comes in and declares "make more birds, but alpha to omega now means something else" and so it is, but the readers give up and are frustrated.

So again classification is always problematic. However it can't be helped or stopped entirely as people also like to form categories and classifications, since it streamlines discussions and dialoges, because everyone can quickly take from a pre-existing source of definitions, without needing to explain everything beforehand.

But when these classifications get out of hand or are so frustratingly vague or subject to change, they just become a source of strife and arguments, especialy between the two extreme opposing sides, while those in the middle gets frustrated and just want the story to be enjoyable and might want the classification to be destroyed all together for a general base definition.

At least Hickman has done away with that nonsense

I feel he made it worse. Not only has he tried to create some legitimization of "omegas" as something that can be defined, but with a definition which is once again quite vague, but also introduced the whole Chimera thing, which are essentialy mutant versions of multi-core processors.

Meaning there is now a new arms race for more powerfull pet characters, not by how powerfull their mutation is but how many powerfull mutantions they combine in their multi-core X-gene.

Which makes it only a matter of time until existing characters are revealed to be natural chimeras, so they can be more special than special again.

[dirtynun]

Omega doesn't mean infinite potential or power anymore. It's been retconed to mean the highest registered power that has not been surpassed by human means. It means you can be knocked off the list if a more powerful human comes around and the region makes their powers finite

It means undefinable upper limit to your power level. Synonyms for undefinable are insurmountable, limitless, incalculable, limitless, uncountable, unmeasurable....etc. omega mutants are essentially unlimited in their powers specific designation. It's not a no human can pass you so you are omega. Because manifold was not designated omega and he is a universal level spatial manipulator.... But according to knull out there somewhere in the universe there is someone more and he has a definable upper limit which is he can't use his powers outside his native universe.

[dirtynun]

Hogwash. Most mutants don't even have powers until puberty. And pre-Phoenix, Jean struggled to telekinetically lift more than she could lift with her body. (She's come a long way, baby!) Iceman started out *throwing snowballs at people.* Now he transmutes his body into ice, and creates glaciers out of thin air!

*Many* mutants develop power over time, including omegas. Proteus' power has grown immensely from his early beginnings when he had a thirty foot range, and burned himself out and killed the body he was using in ten minutes of exerting his power. Neither of those things are true now!

Yh but he was always omega.... His mother moira specifically gave birth with his father to give birth to an omega level mutant the same with Charles and David's mother. You either are or you aren't. You can't train to become an omega if that was the case Emma, Charles, rouge, Polaris ...
Etc. Would all have been classified as such. Yes every mutant is more powerful than they really know but only a very very very few have practically unlimited power waiting to be realized. That's what makes them omega the unlimited power waiting to be realized.
I mean take a look at at Quentin who is literally an omega level telepath but is an average telepath at best. He has unlimited telepathic power but his skills are somewhat luckluster against Emma and Charles he would be dropped kicked soo hard he won't know what's coming. But they are not omega he is because he has unlimited power waiting to be realized.

[ExodusCloak]

Edit see below

10 char

[ExodusCloak]

Reading Hickmans definition again:

There's two limitations.

You cannot be omega if your power type could in theory be surpassed.

So Calibans mutant sensor sucks compared to Cerebro so he could never be in the running.

While Magnetism, reality warping etc in theory have no limits. And this is what is meant by undefinable upper limit. It's not talking about individuals its talking about the power type.

The second difference is while the old definition meant infinite potential of the individual the new definition talks about undefinable upper limit of the power type.

So after you complete the first criteria then you have basically every telepath on the planet in the running.

Now the second criteria is who has registered highest in the category. Now we have Kid Omega and Marvel Girl I tied in first place.

So in fact the definition has nothing to do with humans. And you can humans and aliens stronger then omega level mutants.

The New definition actually puts limits on omega mutants.

The reason manifold is not an omega mutant is because his power type is potentially capped.

[dirtynun]

Incalculable doesn't mean unlimited. That is the difference. Where the old definition was limitless.
They give an example in Forge who has been surpassed by humans.

It also means another mutant can come along and kick you off or a human can render the power type not omega should they surpass it.

Ohk so I see you glossed over limitless which I typed twice.

Also if it was apex predator of a power then Quentin and jean would not both be omega telepaths. I get the confusion though Hickman is smart the undefinable upper limits he used along with the examples gives some confusion. But undefinable and undefined are two different things. Undefined means not yet defined but can be if the right tools and equipment or more advanced methods come by we would be able to define it. But undefinable means cannot be defined. It means no means method can ever be concocted to define it. It just cannot be defined defined just like infinity we can't and will never understand or know what infinity is, that's literally the definition of undefinable. So if let's say a mutant is born with undefinable weather manipulation they would also be designated an omega of weather manipulation along with storm. That's why omega level mutants are extremely rare and invaluable. If it was the strongest in a specific power we would have an omega for fire manipulation, for teleportation, for morphing, for wood manipulation, for every single mutant power out there and if you are the only mutant with your power type like bomb boy or jazz who have very specific abilities unique to only them. But that's not the case now is it. We are having omega level mutants of the same power type.

[Starfish]

It means undefinable upper limit to your power level. Synonyms for undefinable are insurmountable, limitless, incalculable, limitless, uncountable, unmeasurable....etc. omega mutants are essentially unlimited in their powers specific designation. It's not a no human can pass you so you are omega. Because manifold was not designated omega and he is a universal level spatial manipulator.... But according to knull out there somewhere in the universe there is someone more and he has a definable upper limit which is he can't use his powers outside his native universe.

They clearly appear to have limits to how much power they can control, however. Just because something can't be definied doesn't mean it has to be infinite. It's simply unknown.

[ExodusCloak]

Ohk so I see you glossed over limitless which I typed twice.

Also if it was apex predator of a power then Quentin and jean would not both be omega telepaths. I get the confusion though Hickman is smart the undefinable upper limits he used along with the examples gives some confusion. But undefinable and undefined are two different things. Undefined means not yet defined but can be if the right tools and equipment or more advanced methods come by we would be able to define it. But undefinable means cannot be defined. It means no means method can ever be concocted to define it. It just cannot be defined defined just like infinity we can't and will never understand or know what infinity is, that's literally the definition of undefinable. So if let's say a mutant is born with undefinable weather manipulation they would also be designated an omega of weather manipulation along with storm. That's why omega level mutants are extremely rare and invaluable. If it was the strongest in a specific power we would have an omega for fire manipulation, for teleportation, for morphing, for wood manipulation, for every single mutant power out there and if you are the only mutant with your power type like bomb boy or jazz who have very specific abilities unique to only them. But that's not the case now is it. We are having omega level mutants of the same power type.

As I said in the last post whats needs to be undefinable is the power type not the individual.

So in theory yes you could have an omega level fire manipulator but I'd imagine omega level energy manipulator trumps that.

There wouldn't be one for morphing or teleportation as in theory there's a limit to that.

Undefined power type not individual

[Starfish]

Not to mention that it's Xavier's definition. The data pages are in-universe documents and only as trustworthy as the person who wrote them or the information they're working with.

[dirtynun]

Reading Hickmans definition again:

There's two limitations.

You cannot be omega if your power type could in theory be surpassed.

So Calibans mutant sensor sucks compared to Cerebro so he could never be in the running.

While Magnetism, reality warping etc in theory have no limits. And this is what is meant by undefinable upper limit. It's not talking about individuals its talking about the power type.

The second difference is while the old definition meant infinite potential of the individual the new definition talks about undefinable upper limit of the power type.

So after you complete the first criteria then you have basically every telepath on the planet in the running.

Now the second criteria is who has registered highest in the category. Now we have Kid Omega and Marvel Girl I tied in first place.

So in fact the definition has nothing to do with humans. And you can humans and aliens stronger then omega level mutants.

The New definition actually puts limits on omega mutants.

The reason manifold is not an omega mutant is because his power type is potentially capped.

It puts limits on the number of omega level powers an mutant can have. At first an omega level mutant would literally start with just telekinesis and telepathy then we start getting resurecting, reality warping, time manipulation, spatial manipulation and the like all from that one omega level mutant. Now if you are omega level it simply mean your dominant power has no upper limits plane and simple. If your dominant power is cryokinesis you have unlimited power and control over ice. You can do anything you want with it and more but the base all stems from unlimited ice control as we see from iceman that is crazy I mean unless you can get rid of all moisture on the planet or can trap his soul you can't kill him. The same potential is translated to the unique omega abilities of all the other omegas bringing more interesting ways by which omega mutants can be incorporated in stories. So no storm is not going to become a reality warper just because she is omega but it means that it is within the potential of her power to create and control storms as powerful as as the god tempest if not stronger and create abnormal weather like nanobots storm or chanel the power from a galactic core, manipulate magnetic fields, control hydrogen atoms, ocean currents, solar flares and solar wind among many many others. and such abilities that are not exactly weather in the traditional sense but due to proximity and relation to the weather she can control them all of them Hence her designation as an omega weather manipulator. Manifold is not omega because he has a universal upper limit. He can be defined.

[Starfish]

Magneto couldn't even beat Iron-Man at electromagnetic manipulation and Iceman got killed by being chucked into an oven. Xavier might wish his Omegas had unlimited power, but they have yet to demonstrate their ability to compete on Marvel's cosmic scale.

[ExodusCloak]

It does not mean the individual has unlimited power. It means the power class in theory has no limit. For example Magnetos power type in theory is unquantifiable but he as an individual has a power limit before he gets exhausted. The reason why he is on the list and not Polaris is because he has registered a higher level of power. By that same definition he could be kicked off it by her should she perform a higher level of power

Case in point Hope needing to boost several omega to terraform

[dirtynun]

They clearly appear to have limits to how much power they can control, however. Just because something can't be definied doesn't mean it has to be infinite. It's simply unknown.

It's the English the English it is kinda tricky, unknown and unknowable are as different as undefined and undefinable. Also it's potential you grow into it. You don't just sit there and create galactic storms out of nowhere you have to train expand your abilities think creatively this was best examplified in iceman when Emma took over his body and realized he was omega but he didn't even know himself. If you do not harness it you won't develop it it's as simple as that. An omega is a mutant that has the ability to reach an UNDEFINABLE upper limit of that powers specific classification. Hence the upper limits of there power cannot be defined hence cannot be surpassed. So like I said Quentin is an average telepath psylocke, the cuckoos, Emma, Betsy among others are all better than him in telepathy your as it stand now, but he is omega because his inherent potential and capacity with telepathy has an UNDEFINABLE register. So he is omega just like jean.

[sunofdarkchild]

There is no way Magneto's power is limitless. Does anyone seriously think he can manipulate all metal in the universe at once? That is not in any way what the Hickman definition is trying to say and would make the entire point about the powers being able to be surpassed or not superfluous. Jean and Quentin also can't touch every single mind in the universe at once. Storm can't affect the weather on every planet in the universe at once. Iceman can't bring the entire universe to absolute zero. With the possible exception of the reality warpers, every omega-level mutant has limits.